View Full Version : Do Civilians Armed With Guns Ever Capture, Kill, or Otherwise Stop Mass Shooters?
From the Volokh Conspiracy - for all of you that are going to get asked this over and over again for the next few weeks. I was asked twice in the last few hours while on a plane.
http://www.volokh.com/2012/12/14/do-civilians-armed-with-guns-ever-capture-kill-or-otherwise-stop-mass-shooters/
Backers of laws that let pretty much all law-abiding carry concealed guns in public places often argue that these laws will sometimes enable people to stop mass shootings. Opponents occasionally ask: If that’s so, what examples can one give of civilians armed with guns stopping such shootings? Sometimes, I hear people asking if even one such example can be found, or saying that they haven’t heard even one such example.
Naturally, such examples will be rare, partly because mass shootings are rare, partly because many mass shootings happen in supposedly “gun-free” zones (such as schools, universities, or private property posted with a no-guns sign) in which gun carrying isn’t allowed, and partly for other reasons. Moreover, at least some examples are contested, because it might be unclear — as you’ll see below — whether the shooter had been planning to kill more people when he was stopped. But here are instances that I have seen, not counting killings stopped by people who were off-duty police officers (or police officers from other jurisdictions) at the time of the shooting.
1. In Pearl, Mississippi in 1997 (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,136736,00.html), 16-year-old Luke Woodham stabbed and bludgeoned to death his mother at home, then killed two students and injured seven at his high school. As he was leaving the school, he was stopped by Assistant Principal Joel Myrick, who had gone out to get a handgun from his car. I have seen sources that state that Woodham was on the way to Pearl Junior High School (http://books.google.com/books?id=_joU1OwTOWcC&pg=PA263#v=onepage&q&f=false) to continue shooting, though I couldn’t find any contemporaneous news articles that so state.
2. In Edinboro, Pennsylvania in 1996 (http://articles.philly.com/1998-04-26/news/25765866_1_andrew-wurst-john-gillette-science-teacher), 14-year-old Andrew Wurst shot and killed a teacher at a school dance, and shot and injured several other students. He had just left the dance hall, carrying his gun — possibly to attack more people, though the stories that I’ve seen are unclear — when he was confronted by the dance hall owner James Strand, who lived next door and kept a shotgun at home. It’s not clear whether Wurst was planning to kill others, would have gotten into a gun battle with the police, or would have otherwise killed more people had Strand not stopped him.
3. In Winnemucca, Nevada in 2008 (http://www.lvrj.com/news/19257519.html), Ernesto Villagomez killed two people and wounded two others in a bar filled with three hundred people. He was then shot and killed by a patron who was carrying a gun (and had a concealed carry license). It’s not clear whether Villagomez would have killed more people; the killings were apparently the result of a family feud, and I could see no information on whether Villagomez had more names on his list, nor could one tell whether he would have killed more people in trying to evade capture.
4. In Colorado Springs in 2007 (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/12/us/12brfs-GUNMANKILLED_BRF.html?fta=y&pagewanted=print&_r=0), Matthew Murray killed four people at a church. He was then shot several times by Jeanne Assam, a church member, volunteer security guard, and former police officer (she had been dismissed by a police department 10 years before, and to my knowledge hadn’t worked as a police officer since). Murray, knocked down and badly wounded, killed himself; it is again not clear whether he would have killed more people had he not been wounded, but my guess is that he would have.
So it appears that civilians armed with guns are sometimes willing to intervene to stop someone who had just committed a mass shooting in public. In what fraction of mass shootings would such interventions happen, if gun possession were allowed in the places where the shootings happen? We don’t know. In what fraction would interventions prevent more killings and injuries, as opposed to capturing or killing the murderer after he’s already done? We don’t know. In what fraction would interventions lead to more injuries to bystanders? Again, we don’t know. Finally, always keep in mind that mass shootings in public places should not be the main focus in the gun debate, whether for gun control or gun decontrol: They on average account for much less than 1% of all homicides in the U.S., and are unusually hard to stop through gun control laws (since the killer is bent on committing a publicly visible murder and is thus unlikely to be much deterred by gun control law, or by the prospect of encountering an armed bystander).
Still, people have asked for examples of some shootings in which a civilian armed with a gun intervened and brought down the shooter — so here they are.
Zundfolge
12-14-2012, 17:39
The problem is that most of the time when someone stops a mass shooter it's not a story about how some brave soul stopped a mass shooter, its a story about how someone shot an armed man. It barely makes the local news (let alone national) and people don't realize the number of people actually saved.
bigun1962
12-14-2012, 17:47
American Rifleman and/or American Hunter devote at least 1/2 page to armed citizen every month. That is about the only place I remember seeing something on that order.
As of yet, NO. The cowards have all chosen places that are void of people capable of legally defending themself adequately.
Sikh Temple shooting, an armed civilian stopped the gunman.
Same for the shooting at the church in CO Springs a couple years ago.
dwalker460
12-14-2012, 18:10
The Texas Tower massacre was stopped by civilians with hunting rifles, because the cops only had peashooter 38's and shotguns.
The female security person who stopped the fanatic at the Church in CO Springs not long ago, with a pocket pistol
There are others. Unfortunately, MOST if not all of these shootings happen in gun-free zones. Churches, Malls, Theatres, Schools, Airports. I was in an airport on 9/11, watched the planes crash into the towers live on CNN at the Starbucks in the San Jose airport. That entire event might have gone differently with an armed society.
Want to counter these sort of questions? Respond with the age old response- "An armed society is a peaceful soceity, when a man may have to back up his last words with gunplay".
Bailey Guns
12-14-2012, 18:34
There was another in WV maybe? Student got a gun from a car and stopped the bad guy.
ETA: Found it http://rense.com/general19/schd.htm
SideShow Bob
12-14-2012, 18:46
Same for the shooting at the church in CO Springs a couple years ago.
That was an armed security, if I remember correctly, an off duty LEO. Not a common Joe or Jane with a CCW.
clublights
12-14-2012, 18:50
That was an armed security, if I remember correctly, an off duty LEO. Not a common Joe or Jane with a CCW.
She is listed above.. former cop .. volunteer security ... pretty sure she had a CCW...
Tinelement
12-14-2012, 18:50
You think they actually reported!!?
Main stream media wants acts that go against firearms.
ChunkyMonkey
12-14-2012, 19:06
That was an armed security, if I remember correctly, an off duty LEO. Not a common Joe or Jane with a CCW.
She was not LEO nor security. After the fact, the church moved to protect her by claiming she is a volunteered security. Sadly, the church shy away from her after she came out. Few of my relatives stopped going to that church afterward.
She was not LEO nor security. After the fact, the church moved to protect her by claiming she is a volunteered security. Sadly, the church shy away from her after she came out. Few of my relatives stopped going to that church afterward.
Nooo... a church not agreeing with homosexuality? What is this world coming to?
Whistler
12-14-2012, 20:16
The Texas Tower massacre was stopped by civilians with hunting rifles, because the cops only had peashooter 38's and shotguns.
The female security person who stopped the fanatic at the Church in CO Springs not long ago, with a pocket pistol
There are others. Unfortunately, MOST if not all of these shootings happen in gun-free zones. Churches, Malls, Theatres, Schools, Airports. I was in an airport on 9/11, watched the planes crash into the towers live on CNN at the Starbucks in the San Jose airport. That entire event might have gone differently with an armed society.
Want to counter these sort of questions? Respond with the age old response- "An armed society is a peaceful soceity, when a man may have to back up his last words with gunplay".
But in the Utopian gun-free world it's all sunshine, rainbows & unicorns. There are no bad or rude people because they are not afraid you see. Everyone gets along, plays nice and shares with others. It's only common sense! [Bang]
I think it's also likely in many cases where a firearm is used by a private citizen to prevent a crime no shot is fired and becomes statistically invisible. That and it doesn't sell many papers.
gnihcraes
12-14-2012, 20:32
Most places these events happen, are gun free zones where most of us follow the law. But someone might have already posted this, I'm just too lazy to read everything. :)
Whistler
12-14-2012, 20:44
Most places these events happen, are gun free zones where most of us follow the law. But someone might have already posted this, I'm just too lazy to read everything. :)
Not even the OP? [hahhah-no]
BPTactical
12-14-2012, 20:49
IIRC there was a shooting a few years ago at a mall in Utah. I believe a CCW holder engaged the shooter and kept him at bay until LE arrived.
Historically when a shooter is met with force they either capitulate or off themselves.
The female security person who stopped the fanatic at the Church in CO Springs not long ago, with a pocket pistol
That was an armed security, if I remember correctly, an off duty LEO. Not a common Joe or Jane with a CCW.
Jeanne Assam was a church volunteer with a CCW, armed with a pocket pistol. She was a former LEO.
It is noteworthy that her shots did not seriously injure or even disable the shooter. However, as is often the case with these events, when faced with armed resistance, the attack stopped. In this case, the gunman took his own life. Knowing what we know about most of these killers, once the bullets start flying at them, they give up quickly.
The OP has a great list. The reason these are not such major news is specifically because of the presence of the armed citizen.
Here's one where a man gave his life doing just that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_courthouse_shooting
I firmly believe he stopped others from being killed that day.
BushMasterBoy
12-14-2012, 20:56
My opinion is that there is a hidden agenda from foreign governments to disarm the American populace. It would make it alot easier to forcibly take over the United States of America if we were unarmed citizens. We don't need more restrictive legislation, we need better security in our schools, theaters & shopping malls! And yes I am willing to pay higher taxes for police at schools. The media and its views are distorted (more influence from the foreign hidden interests).
Zundfolge
12-14-2012, 23:27
The female security person who stopped the fanatic at the Church in CO Springs not long ago, with a pocket pistol.
Minor nit pick ... it was a Beretta 92 (or 96) ... not exactly a "pocket" pistol.
And she wasn't an "off duty police officer working security" ... she was "an unemployed former police officer who happened to be packing her private CCW".
OneGuy67
12-14-2012, 23:49
IIRC there was a shooting a few years ago at a mall in Utah. I believe a CCW holder engaged the shooter and kept him at bay until LE arrived.
Historically when a shooter is met with force they either capitulate or off themselves.
It was an off duty police officer.
Zundfolge
12-15-2012, 00:03
It was an off duty police officer.
Are we sure? When the MSM isn't outright ignoring these kinds of defensive shootings they often call the defensive shooter an "off duty police officer" when they are just an armed citizen.
I don't know about the Utah case but in several cases of armed Israeli citizens stopping terrorist attacks this was what happened.
I guess when it comes to the media I'm just pretty doggone cynical.
OneGuy67
12-15-2012, 00:18
It was Ogden City police officer Kenneth Hammond, who was off duty and having dinner with his wife in the mall. So yes, I'm sure.
Updated for all your liberal friends -- even published by the Washington Post.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/03/do-civilians-with-guns-ever-stop-mass-shootings/
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1. In Chicago earlier this year (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-uber-driver-shoots-gunman-met-0420-20150419-story.html), an Uber driver with a concealed-carry permit “shot and wounded a gunman [Everardo Custodio] who opened fire on a crowd of people.”
2. In a Philadelphia barber shop earlier this year (http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Man-Shot-in-the-Chest-Inside-West-Philly-Barbershop-297176271.html), Warren Edwards “opened fire on customers and barbers” after an argument. Another man with a concealed-carry permit then shot the shooter; of course it’s impossible to tell whether the shooter would have kept killing if he hadn’t been stopped, but a police captain was quoted as saying that, “I guess he [the man who shot the shooter] saved a lot of people in there.”
3. In a hospital near Philadelphia, in 2014 (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/26/official-suspect-in-deadly-hospital-shooting-had-lengthy-history-gun-arrests/), Richard Plotts shot and killed the psychiatric caseworker with whom he was meeting, and shot and wounded his psychiatrist, Lee Silverman. Silverman shot back, and took down Plotts. While again it’s not certain whether Plotts would have killed other people, Delaware County D.A. Jack Whelan stated (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/26/official-suspect-in-deadly-hospital-shooting-had-lengthy-history-gun-arrests/) that, “If the doctor did not have a firearm, (and) the doctor did not utilize the firearm, he’d be dead today, and I believe that other people in that facility would also be dead”; Yeadon Police Chief Donald Molineux (http://news.yahoo.com/doctor-fired-back-gunman-hospital-attack-214524705.html) similar said that he “believe[d] the doctor saved lives.” Plotts was still carrying 39 unspent rounds when he was arrested. [UPDATE: I added this item since the original post.]
4. In Plymouth, Pa., in 2012 (http://citizensvoice.com/news/police-plymouth-homicide-suspect-shot-by-patron-1.1370815), William Allabaugh killed one man and wounded another following an argument over Allabaugh being ejected from a bar. Allabaugh then approached a bar manager and Mark Ktytor and reportedly pointed his gun at them; Ktytor, who had a concealed-carry license (http://citizensvoice.com/news/man-who-ended-plymouth-shooting-rampage-wants-gun-back-1.1645788), then shot Allabaugh. “The video footage and the evidence reveals that Mr. Allabaugh had turned around and was reapproaching the bar. Mr. [Ktytor] then acted, taking him down. We believe that it could have been much worse that night,” Luzerne County A.D.A. Jarrett Ferentino said (http://wnep.com/2013/10/15/guilty-plea-entered-in-plymouth-shooting-death/).
5. Near Spartanburg, S.C., in 2012 (http://www.foxcarolina.com/story/17251517/churchgoers-subdue-gunman-at-spartanburg-church), Jesse Gates went to his church armed with a shotgun and kicked in a door. But Aaron Guyton (http://www.goupstate.com/article/20120325/articles/120329781?tc=ar), who had a concealed-carry license, drew his gun and pointed it at Gates, and other parishioners then disarmed Gates. Note that in this instance, unlike the others, it’s possible that the criminal wasn’t planning on killing anyone, but just brought the shotgun to church and kicked in the door to draw attention to himself or vent his frustration.
6. In Winnemucca, Nev., in 2008 (http://www.lvrj.com/news/19257519.html), Ernesto Villagomez killed two people and wounded two others in a bar filled with 300 people. He was then shot and killed by a patron who was carrying a gun (and had a concealed-carry license). It’s not clear whether Villagomez would have killed more people; the killings were apparently the result of a family feud, and I could see no information on whether Villagomez had more names on his list, nor could one tell whether he would have killed more people in trying to evade capture.
7. In Colorado Springs, Colo., in 2007 (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/12/us/12brfs-GUNMANKILLED_BRF.html?fta=y&pagewanted=print&_r=0), Matthew Murray killed four people at a church. He was then shot several times by Jeanne Assam, a church member, volunteer security guard and former police officer (she had been dismissed by a police department 10 years before, and to my knowledge hadn’t worked as a police officer since). Murray, knocked down and badly wounded, killed himself; it is again not clear whether he would have killed more people had he not been wounded, but my guess is that he would have (UPDATE: he apparently went to the church with more than 1,000 rounds of ammunition (http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_8723969)).
8. In Edinboro, Pa., in 1998 (http://articles.philly.com/1998-04-26/news/25765866_1_andrew-wurst-john-gillette-science-teacher), 14-year-old Andrew Wurst shot and killed a teacher at a school dance, and shot and injured several other students. He had just left the dance hall, carrying his gun — possibly to attack more people, though the stories that I’ve seen are unclear — when he was confronted by the dance hall owner James Strand, who lived next door and kept a shotgun at home. It’s not clear whether Wurst was planning to kill others, would have gotten into a gun battle with the police, or would have otherwise killed more people had Strand not stopped him.
9. In Pearl, Miss., in 1997 (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,136736,00.html), 16-year-old Luke Woodham stabbed and bludgeoned to death his mother at home, then killed two students and injured seven at his high school. As he was leaving the school, he was stopped by Assistant Principal Joel Myrick, who had gone out to get a handgun from his car. I have seen sources that state that Woodham was on the way to Pearl Junior High School (http://books.google.com/books?id=_joU1OwTOWcC&pg=PA263#v=onepage&q&f=false) to continue shooting, though I couldn’t find any contemporaneous news articles that so state.
Of course there’s much we don’t know about civilians and mass shootings: In what fraction of mass shootings would such interventions happen, if gun possession were allowed in the places where the shootings happen? In what fraction would interventions prevent more killings and injuries, as opposed to capturing or killing the murderer after he’s already done? In what fraction would interventions lead to more injuries to bystanders?
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Why does it matter whether the person using the gun to stop a violent criminal from injuring or killing innocent people is a civilian or sworn peace officer?
The simple, undeniable fact is that most murderers continue killing until they are confronted by someone with a gun. Whether that gun is used by some free citizen, who happens to be present and on scene when the crime takes place or a law enforcement officer who arrives fifteen minutes after the shooting begins, is not the most relevant point. It takes a good person with a gun to stop criminals with guns. Innocent people who are about to become victims of criminals do not care whether the person who shot the criminal has a badge or not.
Not everyone should be required to carry a gun, but prohibiting free citizens from carrying a gun makes as much sense as requiring police officers to lock their firearms in a box and giving the key to the box to one of their supervisors so that the firearm may only be deployed when a supervisor arrives and determines that the officer needs the firearm.
If someone is legally carrying a firearm and they break a law while in possession of the firearm, i.e., drunk with firearm CRS 18-12-106(1)(d) Prohibited use of weapons, they deserve to be charged and prosecuted for the offense. To prohibit the exercise of a right before a criminal act is committed is a form of prior restraint that just seems unAmerican on it's face and should be opposed by free citizens.
They forgot the portland mall
The liberal logic is to just magically remove all guns. If they could only get rid of guns, no one would need a gun to stop that guy with a gun.
They haven't been able to magically get rid of nuclear weapons either. Those are a lot harder to manufacture than something invented in the 13th century (firearms). The genie is out of the bottle. It's time to grow up, be responsible, and protect yourself from what has always been a dangerous world.
BladesNBarrels
10-08-2015, 17:03
[QUOTE=
I don't know about the Utah case but in several cases of armed Israeli citizens stopping terrorist attacks this was what happened.
[/QUOTE]
From the age of 18 every Israeli male and female is required to serve three and two years, respectively, of compulsory military service.
Makes for a society familiar with firearms that is in constant danger from their neighbors.
speedysst
10-08-2015, 18:26
2012 Didnt a CCW holder in Oregon ignore a "No guns allowed" sign and returned fire when a man entered a mall and began shooting random people? I believe that once the fantasy of killing lots of people was ruined the shooter shot himself. NM mentioned a couple posts above.
hollohas
10-09-2015, 08:15
That was an armed security, if I remember correctly, an off duty LEO. Not a common Joe or Jane with a CCW.
This is the same argument I have seen the anti's use time and time again. That she wasn't a "civilian" so it doesn't count. She was retired and a volunteer, so yeah, it counts. A retired LEO is a civilian like anyone else.
I carry at church and I volunteer to hangout in the foyer to monitor the church and parking lot during service multiple times each month. Does that mean I am "armed security" and not a civilian? Of course not. I am an armed civilian.
As for the other cases, the anti's always say "well, the killer was done shooting by the time they were confronted by an armed individual, so they didn't actually stop anything." Assumptions and conjecture, always to downplay the actions of a good guy with a gun.
hollohas
10-09-2015, 08:26
Why does it matter whether the person using the gun to stop a violent criminal from injuring or killing innocent people is a civilian or sworn peace officer?
I don't think it matters to us, but it matters to the anti's.
It is the main argument the anti's use. The anti's insist there isn't any evidence that CIVILIANS can stop shootings because it's always either a "trained" LEO/Security/Etc or the civilian arrived after the shooting stops.
We need to be able to prove that argument wrong with the facts that prove otherwise.
We need to be able to prove that argument wrong with the facts that prove otherwise.
LOL! Like they'll even listen to facts.
Aloha_Shooter
10-09-2015, 22:02
LOL! Like they'll even listen to facts.
The antis won't ever listen to facts but the undecideds will and they'll assume the anti-gun lies are true if we don't correct them.
Portsider86
10-11-2015, 22:15
If you're going to research this you need to look at the other side. How many times have armed citizens wounded or killed someone other than criminal shooter or otherwise negatively affected the situation? We must be prepared for the opposition's responses, stay a step ahead.
If you're going to research this you need to look at the other side. How many times have armed citizens wounded or killed someone other than criminal shooter or otherwise negatively affected the situation? We must be prepared for the opposition's responses, stay a step ahead.
While this is a risk, it happens far less often than the cops or criminals hurting some innocent bystander with stray rounds, in part because most CCW holders are more cognizant of the consequences of stray rounds, and are not covered by sovereign immunity.
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