View Full Version : Private FTF Gun Sales
electronman1729
12-25-2012, 00:24
When a FTF sale happens with a firearm happens is there a sure way to CYA?
I know that there a forms simialer to a 4473 for private sales but do these forms hold any protection for the seller if the buyer does soemthing rash? (This assumes that the buyer signs it)
Also what is the strangest thing someone has offered to trade you for your firearms?
JM Ver. 2.0
12-25-2012, 00:35
I've had a first born child and an ex wife offered..... I turned both down.
ford_muscle1
12-25-2012, 00:35
I have always just done a simple bill of sale with the weapon info and serial number along with my name and phone number and the buyers name and phone number and address if they want to give it.
I've been offered antique radios for a gun one time thought it was a little strange.
theGinsue
12-25-2012, 00:42
Some folks believe that a Bill of Sale (BoS) protects them after selling/buying a firearm via FTF sales. Many others, myself included, do not subscribe to this philosophy. In fact, most folks here will completely shy away from purchasing from anyone requesting a BoS for their item(s). Just more red tape that might bite you in the butt later.
Truth of the matter is that if you really need to feel 100% protected, then you should be going through an FFL and having a 4473 completed.
Most folks here will just request to see the buyers CO drivers license.
Frankly, I limit who I do business with to folks I've had association with for some time - but then again, I have trust issues.
Never done any trades so I can't speak to your other question.
I was offered a autographed obama pic once lol.
Byte Stryke
12-25-2012, 06:36
you know I am a gun owner and you want my Name, Address and a photocopy of my DL.
SURE... I mean its not like you are going to steal my identity or rob my house now or anything...
[/sarcasm]
Bailey Guns
12-25-2012, 07:09
I subscribe to the "BoS doesn't mean much" theory. I don't require them when I sell as long as I've got some way to judge who I'm selling to (ie: Feedback Forum, reputation, etc...). When I'm buying I generally shy away from those asking for a BoS but it isn't a deal killer as long as the seller wants nothing more than a name and maybe a phone number. He's not getting a lot of personal info.
I've been offered a lot of beef for trade...steaks, hamburger, etc... Yeah...no.
BPTactical
12-25-2012, 07:51
I am a contrare I guess. When I sell an item privately I NEED to see an I.D. for MY BOS.
I don't care what you do with your copy of it but I retain a copy for my benefit, not yours.
You are also going to sign/initial a section on the BOS that states you do not meet any of the criteria of a "Prohibited Person" as defined in 18 USC section 44.
Again, this is for MY benefit, if you go and do something stupid and I end up in court because of it I can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that I took a reasonable means to ensure you were lawfully able to purchase/own said item.
If you balk at either me getting a BOS for my records or showing me I.D your walking away empty handed.
Of course in this day and age it seems we are all criminals for owning a firearm so if something goes south we are guilty anyway.
Years ago I traded a PolyTech for a Shovelhead Harley engine.
IMO, a B.O.S. is a way to protect yourself. Nothing in this world is 100% guaranteed. But it will give you something in your corner should something bad happen. I've talked to a couple friends who are attorneys ( yeah I know, I call them friends), and no they aren't criminal attorneys, but they say in general, anything that will CYA yourself is always a plus...
Great-Kazoo
12-25-2012, 09:34
IMO, a B.O.S. is a way to protect yourself. Nothing in this world is 100% guaranteed. But it will give you something in your corner should something bad happen. I've talked to a couple friends who are attorneys ( yeah I know, I call them friends), and no they aren't criminal attorneys, but they say in general, anything that will CYA yourself is always a plus...
That's why i save electronic info and you always have their ph number. Cannot get any easier than that. I have yet to see any criminal element here or from other boards. Shady looking characters you bet, criminal, no.
ChadAmberg
12-25-2012, 10:12
I was chatting with a buddy on the east coast the other day about this kind of thing. Delaware has a law that says, if you're selling private party and would like to do a background check, any FFL must let you do it through them (for a charge of course).
So here's my question: The FFL running the check, what do they put down for the firearm since it may still be in the car or even at the seller's residence still? Next, since the FFL never takes possession of the firearm and I'm sure they wouldn't want to, it never goes in their logbook. And since the record of the BG check disappears, how can you as a seller then "prove" you sold the gun?
The assumption is you would still need that signed bill of sale for those who are so paranoid that they must track that kind of thing with photocopies of drivers licenses, DNA samples, and colonic maps.
FYI for bill of sale, it's to protect you as the seller. Not from "The fuzz is gonna throw me in prison because I couldn't prove I sold the murder weapon" crap, but because you put on there "I sold gun x with accessories y and z for 1$. This transaction is complete." That's what protects you from the buyer taking you to small claims court saying you owe him 20 pmags after the fact.
ChadAmberg
12-25-2012, 10:15
Oh and here's my personal selling rule:
If you show me a concealed permit from Colorado where your face matches the pic, I'm good.
If you show me a DL, I check the photo to the face, and also want to see the birthdate. I don't give a crap about the name, address, SSN#, DL#, height or weight. Then ask if you're a prohibited person. If all that checks out, the deal is on.
Great-Kazoo
12-25-2012, 11:09
I was chatting with a buddy on the east coast the other day about this kind of thing. Delaware has a law that says, if you're selling private party and would like to do a background check, any FFL must let you do it through them (for a charge of course).
So here's my question: The FFL running the check, what do they put down for the firearm since it may still be in the car or even at the seller's residence still? Next, since the FFL never takes possession of the firearm and I'm sure they wouldn't want to, it never goes in their logbook. And since the record of the BG check disappears, how can you as a seller then "prove" you sold the gun?
The assumption is you would still need that signed bill of sale for those who are so paranoid that they must track that kind of thing with photocopies of drivers licenses, DNA samples, and colonic maps.
FYI for bill of sale, it's to protect you as the seller. Not from "The fuzz is gonna throw me in prison because I couldn't prove I sold the murder weapon" crap, but because you put on there "I sold gun x with accessories y and z for 1$. This transaction is complete." That's what protects you from the buyer taking you to small claims court saying you owe him 20 pmags after the fact.
If it goes through a FFl it must be entered in their log book.
jackthewall81
12-25-2012, 11:14
All deals I have ever done have been great
spqrzilla
12-25-2012, 11:17
When a FTF sale happens with a firearm happens is there a sure way to CYA?
No.
I know that there a forms simialer to a 4473 for private sales but do these forms hold any protection for the seller if the buyer does soemthing rash? (This assumes that the buyer signs it)
No.
BlasterBob
12-25-2012, 11:18
If it goes through a FFl it must be entered in their log book.
If the FFL is merely running a BG check ONLY and not taking physical possession, surely they wouldn't be expected to log it in the book?? The CBI would have no idea that it was either logged in or if the firearm was physically in the possession of the FFL making the BG check call or computer contact. This is a huge gray area (I believe).
ChadAmberg
12-25-2012, 12:09
If the FFL is merely running a BG check ONLY and not taking physical possession, surely they wouldn't be expected to log it in the book?? The CBI would have no idea that it was either logged in or if the firearm was physically in the possession of the FFL making the BG check call or computer contact. This is a huge gray area (I believe).
That's my question... The FFL shouldn't be "taking possession" at any point. I mean, how would that work? The seller hands over the weapon to the FFL, who logs it in, then processes a check on the buyer. The buyer fails... guess what? Now the FFL has to run a check on the seller. What if he fails also? Now the FFL has possession of a firearm that they should not have. The seller is boned at that point... what can he do? Sell it to the FFL who may not want it?
I guess this leads into the whole "do not do more than the law requires."
BPTactical
12-25-2012, 12:10
If the FFL is merely running a BG check ONLY and not taking physical possession, surely they wouldn't be expected to log it in the book?? The CBI would have no idea that it was either logged in or if the firearm was physically in the possession of the FFL making the BG check call or computer contact. This is a huge gray area (I believe).
To the best of my knowledge the FFL is facilitating a transfer and it needs to be logged as such. Most dealers I know have a series of bound books, Sales, Transfers and Consignments.
Sharpienads
12-25-2012, 12:36
I subscribe to the "BoS doesn't mean much" theory. I don't require them when I sell as long as I've got some way to judge who I'm selling to (ie: Feedback Forum, reputation, etc...). When I'm buying I generally shy away from those asking for a BoS but it isn't a deal killer as long as the seller wants nothing more than a name and maybe a phone number. He's not getting a lot of personal info.
I've been offered a lot of beef for trade...steaks, hamburger, etc... Yeah...no.
You only take sausage? Or tube steak?
[Coffee]
BlasterBob
12-25-2012, 14:15
To the best of my knowledge the FFL is facilitating a transfer and it needs to be logged as such. Most dealers I know have a series of bound books, Sales, Transfers and Consignments.
What I was referring to is if a FFL merely wants to help to secure as a favor, a BG check and has absolutely NO intention of making any type of transfer or even handling the potential firearm IF it even exists..... He is only making the BG call and does not have the firearm in his possession. The CBI would have no idea that the FFL does not intend to actually run the subject firearm through his books, he is merely contacting them to make the BG check. He'd charge the $10 fee (IF made at a gun show) for the check and who'd possibly know what he had done except the guy who was asking him to get the BG check. Although I am not an FFL dealer, I sure can't see any law being circumvented or broken for such an action but I am not in any way saying that I am an expert (at ANYTHING). Wonder if the above is considered as facilitating??
If I remember correctly, the CBI does not get any serial number or even description for the firearm, they do ask if the firearm involved is a handgun or long gun...
According to Webster - Facilitate = to make easy or easier.
Great-Kazoo
12-25-2012, 18:42
What I was referring to is if a FFL merely wants to help to secure as a favor, a BG check and has absolutely NO intention of making any type of transfer or even handling the potential firearm IF it even exists..... He is only making the BG call and does not have the firearm in his possession. The CBI would have no idea that the FFL does not intend to actually run the subject firearm through his books, he is merely contacting them to make the BG check. He'd charge the $10 fee (IF made at a gun show) for the check and who'd possibly know what he had done except the guy who was asking him to get the BG check. Although I am not an FFL dealer, I sure can't see any law being circumvented or broken for such an action but I am not in any way saying that I am an expert (at ANYTHING). Wonder if the above is considered as facilitating??
If I remember correctly, the CBI does not get any serial number or even description for the firearm, they do ask if the firearm involved is a handgun or long gun...
According to Webster - Facilitate = to make easy or easier.
That is correct. However they do ask for your ID / FFL #. Without it TFB. Once again, If any ffl calls a gun it, it's getting logged in.
ChadAmberg
12-25-2012, 19:51
OK, so from the responses, I'm think I'm right when I say, that going to an FFL to have a background check done for a private sale does nothing for the folks who think that it will "get the gun out of their name", since the firearm information is not logged, unless they actually hand over the firearm to the FFL as a consignment type situation.
OK, so from the responses, I'm think I'm right when I say, that going to an FFL to have a background check done for a private sale does nothing for the folks who think that it will "get the gun out of their name", since the firearm information is not logged, unless they actually hand over the firearm to the FFL as a consignment type situation.
it would get a gun out of your name though, as much as it was ever 'in your name'. that 4473 has to stay on file with the FFL. years later the cops come to you asking about the gun, you say "I sold it to X. This FFL did the transfer" That FFL is required to keep that record, or they had sent it back to the ATF. Thats how they trace it to you after all, that's the only way a gun is in your name.
As for finding a FFL that will do such a transfer.. Doubt many would want to, at least not cheaply.
edit: added this
That's my question... The FFL shouldn't be "taking possession" at any point. I mean, how would that work? The seller hands over the weapon to the FFL, who logs it in, then processes a check on the buyer. The buyer fails... guess what? Now the FFL has to run a check on the seller. What if he fails also? Now the FFL has possession of a firearm that they should not have. The seller is boned at that point... what can he do? Sell it to the FFL who may not want it?
I guess this leads into the whole "do not do more than the law requires."
missed that part. Was thinking of filling out the 4473 at the FFL, not just having them run the check. That situation you describe leads me to think not many would want to do it that way because what do you do..
KevDen2005
12-25-2012, 22:04
I've had a first born child and an ex wife offered..... I turned both down.
Don't lie, I know you have the ex wife in your basement.
Jumpstart
12-26-2012, 07:07
BOS? Nah. I won't cultivate the notion that they are necessary for private sales. I want less strings attached in my business dealings, not more.
spqrzilla
12-26-2012, 07:12
Go run your own background check:
https://www.cbirecordscheck.com/index.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1
BlasterBob
12-26-2012, 08:39
That is correct. However they do ask for your ID / FFL #. Without it TFB. Once again, If any ffl calls a gun it, it's getting logged in.
"it's getting logged in".
Correct, but this will be done ONLY by the CBI. They will "log" in the ID of the FFL making the BG request, the name of the buyer and if the firearm is a long gun or hand gun - no serial number, caliber or other description.
Sorry to appear to be "beating a dead" horse but I believe this is correct. [blaster]
Years ago, I asked people to sign a BOS as I wanted a piece of paper listing a date after which that gun was no longer mine. After having given it a bit more thought, I don't do any more than the law requires now. If the person is over 21, a resident of CO, and states that they can legally own, we're off to the races.
I wouldn't worry too much about the FTF issue, -I highly doubt FTF sales will exist by the time Summer rolls around.
Great-Kazoo
12-26-2012, 11:54
Years ago, I asked people to sign a BOS as I wanted a piece of paper listing a date after which that gun was no longer mine. After having given it a bit more thought, I don't do any more than the law requires now. If the person is over 21, a resident of CO, and states that they can legally own, we're off to the races.
I wouldn't worry too much about the FTF issue, -I highly doubt PUBLIC ADVERTISED FTF sales will exist by the time Summer rolls around.
I wouldn't worry too much about the FTF issue, -I highly doubt PUBLIC ADVERTISED FTF sales will exist by the time Summer rolls around.
agreed on that edit. unless any rule is coupled with a rigidly enforced registration program, to the point of you get arrested and firearm taken if you don't have the papers with the gun at all times. The war on drugs has proven that it is very difficult to regulate transactions that happen behind closed doors.
Mountain Boy
12-28-2012, 08:26
Here is another question, how much would this group flip out if someone posted a firearm for sale requiring a CCW or be LEO to buy? In discussions with someone recently, that idea came up but I can only imagine the hate comments that might follow. It's really the only way a FTF seller knows the guy is a "good guy" without using an FFL which right now would suck. Just curious what the reaction would be. Fire away!
Great-Kazoo
12-28-2012, 08:44
Here is another question, how much would this group flip out if someone posted a firearm for sale requiring a CCW or be LEO to buy? In discussions with someone recently, that idea came up but I can only imagine the hate comments that might follow. It's really the only way a FTF seller knows the guy is a "good guy" without using an FFL which right now would suck. Just curious what the reaction would be. Fire away!
Your sale your rules. If you're that concerned about who you sell a gun to. Either insist they do a 4473 OR sell all your guns, since there might be issues down the road. You have 49 post in 1 year and you have a concern about selling a gun to one of us[ROFL2]
UPDATED: Asking for one of the above is your rules. REQUESTING it as the only way to sell a gun is another. Not all members here are LE or (for some reason) CCW?
I've actually seen a couple of ads with that requirement (CCW or LEO).
ChadAmberg
12-28-2012, 09:41
Here is another question, how much would this group flip out if someone posted a firearm for sale requiring a CCW or be LEO to buy? In discussions with someone recently, that idea came up but I can only imagine the hate comments that might follow. It's really the only way a FTF seller knows the guy is a "good guy" without using an FFL which right now would suck. Just curious what the reaction would be. Fire away!
Actually this is common enough I don't think anyone bats an eye about it. I've seen many a sale have this as a requirement.
I've bought a few FTF and never had an issue. One guy wanted a BoS, the rest were a friendly chat, DL or CCW look and everyone goes home happy. A 10-minute chat can tell you a lot about a person if one pays attention.
battle_sight_zero
12-28-2012, 11:06
Flame me. I prefer to only deal with CCW holders. That's my business
electronman1729
12-28-2012, 11:06
Thanks all for the great info
Having bought two firearms through this forum, good deals too, in FTF meetings, now its time to clean out the safe a bit.
Besides the obvious, avoid dark alleys and large amounts of cash, any other tips about FTF selling?
Any special laws, rules or regulations I need to be aware of? See a CDL or CCW prior to sale?
Any information would be greatly appreciated...
Punkface
12-29-2012, 15:41
Quick look at the driver's license or CCW, try and bring someone else or let someone know where you're meeting and with who, and meet in a public place.
Those are my general guidelines for whenever I meet someone up.
If you're selling here, the feedback is a useful tool to see what kind of person you are selling to.
+1 on the feedback section, beat me to it Ray.
SideShow Bob
12-29-2012, 15:50
Quick look at the driver's license or CCW, try and bring someone else or let someone know where you're meeting and with who, and meet in a public place.
Those are my general guidelines for whenever I meet someone up.
Don't meet outside of any movie theaters or close to any schools........
I always bring someone with me whether buying or selling and let someone else know where i am going. Always get proof that they stated they are legal to own and check ID. I specifically ask in emails if they are legal, tell them I will need to see cdl or ccw and save those emails. Close enough to a bill of sale for me.
My rules are simple: Meet in a public place(prefer my place of business). See an ID(or better, a CCW) to verify residency if I don't know the person. Ask "Is there any reason under state or Federal law that you would not be able to purchase this firearm?", again if I don't know them. Gut check: if it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't. If all of those things pass, then conclude the transaction, shake hands, and carry on.
Personally, and with my recent job, I ask for a signed receipt. I won't argue the legalities and if it does or does not protect you in case of something bad happening, but in my book it never hurts to get a signed receipt from the buyer stating they can legally own a firearm and are taking possession of it from you....
Could you simply ask the buyer to fill out a Form 4473 for you and get a copy of their drivers license? At least you would have their signature and answers to the questions that every other gun dealer needs.
ChunkyMonkey
12-29-2012, 16:10
Could you simply ask the buyer to fill out a Form 4473 for you and get a copy of their drivers license? At least you would have their signature and answers to the questions that every other gun dealer needs.
Being from boulder... you are excused.
clublights
12-29-2012, 16:20
I have wondered one thing about bringing a friend...
isn't the definition of a gun show 3 or more people and that would require a 4473 in colorado? TECHNICALLY... I mean...
ChunkyMonkey
12-29-2012, 16:22
3 way transaction, yes.. 3rd wheel, no
jhood001
12-29-2012, 16:27
3 way transaction, yes.. 3rd wheel, no
So you're saying it is okay if another gal just watches. I'm going to go upstairs and run this by management. Wish me luck.
[Coffee]
ChadAmberg
12-29-2012, 16:27
Could you simply ask the buyer to fill out a Form 4473 for you and get a copy of their drivers license? At least you would have their signature and answers to the questions that every other gun dealer needs.
Considering how bad identity theft is anymore, why would anyone give out a copy of everything needed to ruin your credit forever?
SideShow Bob
12-29-2012, 16:41
Could you simply ask the buyer to fill out a Form 4473 for you and get a copy of their drivers license? At least you would have their signature and answers to the questions that every other gun dealer needs.
Sure, give me a filled out 4473, a copy of your DL. And your signature....... And how about your bank account and credit card number while you are at it ?...............
Sure, give me a filled out 4473, a copy of your DL. And your signature....... And how about your bank account and credit card number while you are at it ?...............
Um.. all you need is the guys name on it, the answered questions stating that it is legal for them to buy the firearm and his signature.. who said anything about credit card numbers and bank accounts? I don't remember ever having to put any of that info on a 4473 anyway.
Great-Kazoo
12-29-2012, 16:49
Don't think anyone else has addressed your question.
http://www.ar-15.co/threads/77733-Private-FTF-Gun-Sales
clublights
12-29-2012, 16:49
Um.. all you need is the guys name on it, the answered questions stating that it is legal for them to buy the firearm and his signature.. who said anything about credit card numbers and bank accounts? I don't remember ever having to put any of that info on a 4473 anyway.
SSN Address DOB Name..... all you need to jack someones ID....
SideShow Bob
12-29-2012, 16:50
Um.. all you need is the guys name on it, the answered questions stating that it is legal for them to buy the firearm and his signature.. who said anything about credit card numbers and bank accounts? I don't remember ever having to put any of that info on a 4473 anyway.
Sarcasm intended, as mentioned in the post before mine, identity theft.
If you are that paranoid, have the buyer meet you at an FFL dealer, you pay the fee and have the dealer do a BGC on the buyer. Then in about a week you can sell the firearm to the buyer with confidence that there are no problems.
ChunkyMonkey
12-29-2012, 16:52
BOS is more than enough - I avoid this as hard as I could. 4473 asks for date of birth, ethnicity, place of birth.. more than enough info to pull one's credit w/o the SSN number. Furthermore, I see 4473 as 'an infringement' already.
If you cannot be an adult and trust the person you are about to transfer your firearm to, then don't! This is why I trade within the small circle within this forum. You want 4473, go to the damn dealer and pay transfer fee. You have no business collecting anyone's private info.
Byte Stryke
12-29-2012, 18:24
I always ask to look at a DL/ID and ask the obligatory "In all seriousness, is there any reason under federal, state or local laws you are prohibited from owning a firearm?"
I haven't had a "yes", so no worries. (Don't sell if they say yes, even jokingly)
Due diligence is all that is required.
Don't think anyone else has addressed your question.
http://www.ar-15.co/threads/77733-Private-FTF-Gun-Sales
This was a great thread to read. Did not find it during my searches.
So basically, Seller Beware, FTF, public spot, backup person, look at the CDL, ask if eligible, oh, and double check on the forum for any feedback.
Good stuff. Thanks. I will be posting my "stuff" tomorrow...
SideShow Bob
12-29-2012, 19:26
This was a great thread to read. Did not find it during my searches.
So basically, Seller Beware, FTF, public spot, backup person, look at the CDL, ask if eligible, oh, and double check on the forum for any feedback.
Good stuff. Thanks. I will be posting my "stuff" tomorrow...
What does a Commercial Drivers License have to do with a private sale . What no CDL, No Sale ?
Great-Kazoo
12-29-2012, 19:27
This was a great thread to read. Did not find it during my searches.
So basically, Seller Beware, FTF, public spot, backup person, look at the CDL, ask if eligible, oh, and double check on the forum for any feedback.
Good stuff. Thanks. I will be posting my "stuff" tomorrow...
I hear you on that, I do not exist if you "search" my name.
What does a Commercial Drivers License have to do with a private sale . What no CDL, No Sale ?
Colorado DL? Just miss posted not knowing about a true CDL?
KevDen2005
12-29-2012, 19:31
Another vote to make sure you use the feedback section. It is really important.
Rooskibar03
12-29-2012, 19:58
Another vote to make sure you use the feedback section. It is really important.
Wish someone would tell that to the last 3 sellers I bought from who didn't return the feedback favor.
On arms list there was a few posts about some BGs passing fake bills... So count and feel your cash or better yet bring one of those counterfeit pens.
Great-Kazoo
12-29-2012, 20:07
Wish someone would tell that to the last 3 sellers I bought from who didn't return the feedback favor.
pm them to get off their ass, I'll do it for ya. Hell i'm in a good mood
DSB OUTDOORS
12-29-2012, 21:07
pm them to get off their ass, I'll do it for ya. Hell i'm in a good mood
^^^^^ This! Don't ask, Don't tell. IMHO!! [NoEvil]
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