Couple of ??'s About 'Registration' of Firearms

[DHC]

I've noted several posts by Jim lately in which he admonishes those who might be mistaken in thinking their guns are 'registered' here in Colorado. It got me thinking about this registration question and I realize there are some aspects that I am unclear about. For instance:

* Preface this with my understanding there exists no current law in CO requiring that guns be registered - NFA class 3 notwithstanding. Anyone know if there is any law PROHIBITING authorities in Colorado from creation and maintenance of a 'gun registry'?
* When I purchase new guns, especially those with a lifetime warranty (T/C Icon and a Ruger through Davidson's come to mind), I complete the warranty registration cards and send them in. When filing warranty cards, doesn't this create the opportunity for the authorities to demand those records from the manufacturers/distributors? While true that subsequent private sales would disrupt some percentage of the integrity of the data, it seems like the act of filing warranty registration may be a poor idea for those seeking to minimize the 'tracks' back to their guns. Do you guys generally fill out the warranty registrations on new guns?
* Some years ago I held a FFL. My reason was primarily to be able to make personal purchases at some discount. When the laws were changed to increase FFL fees and allow ATF to conduct more frequent and intrusive inspections, I gave up the FFL. While holding it, I made a few transactions for friends and family, and I maintained the records as the law required. Upon closure of the FFL license, I was required to surrender all the records (Form 4473's and logs) to ATF. In the case of an FFL that closes up shop, all the transactions they handled for the previous 5 years, at least, would be submitted to ATF and subject to inclusion in some kind of database they create/maintain. This raises the question as to whether there is any legislation on a federal level to prohibit the creation/maintenance of a gun registry - anyone know?

Like I said, the comments by Jim (and others) provoked these thoughts and raised some questions. Appreciate any clarification offered. Thanks, in advance.

[Great-Kazoo]

By all means use my name. I am one of the most vocal (have nothing better to do) regarding REGISTRATION and use of the word. It kills me, gun owners continue to use said word, then acknowledge we don't have it, WHY? Lack of education, or really believe every time you fill out a 4473 they guns become registered? ? ?

Warranty REGISTRATION is for the mfg Legal dept, to CYA. Unless a crime is committed with a firearm, later taken in as evidence, NO LE has any idea who the gun belonged to. Ballistics will show what kind of gun, however until said gun is ever located, no idea of origin.
What the CO state leg passed was supposedly no info given to LE's about CCW if contact made. When called in to CBI ONLY Name DOB, SOC (if given) DL address Long gun, hand gun OTHER are given. MAKE, MODEL & SERIAL NO are not given or required by law.

The feds Supposedly have no data base kept. They know you have guns (especially in my case) what you have, unless prying eyes start looking, no clue of actual guns. NFA items they always do a BG check, one every form submitted. I sent one in X and the other 2 weeks later. When contacted the investigator told me "Sorry last weeks approval does not mean something hasn't happened / appeared" to issue a denial. It did help speed the process.

IF / Once a firearm is confiscated (for what ever reason) taken as evidence, or found by what ever means. THEN the S# is run and a trace begun.

[OneGuy67]

http://www.9news.com/rss/story.aspx?storyid=313391

Interesting news article that answers your last question.

[DHC]

By all means use my name. I am one of the most vocal (have nothing better to do) regarding REGISTRATION and use of the word. It kills me, gun owners continue to use said word, then acknowledge we don't have it, WHY? Lack of education, or really believe every time you fill out a 4473 they guns become registered? ? ?

Jim, it was your posts that prompted me to think about this issue. My mention of your name was intended as a positive attribution. I hope it came across that way.

Re: Form 4473's. Do you recall the scene in Red Dawn where the Cuban officer orders his men to gather up all the Form 4473's from the sporting goods shops in town - so that they could identify gun owners and confiscate their weapons? Yes, it was Hollywood, but a similar scenario is at least plausible.

Just looking again at the FFL record-keeping requirements. Looks like the regulations have expanded quite a lot. Form 4473's and the transaction log are required to be maintained for 20 years after the date of the transaction. In the link posted by OneGuy67 in his response, it looks like out-of-business records held at ATF are NOT stored in a database and the process to retrieve a record is onerous.

In terms of warranty registration, it had not occurred to me till now that I probably need to ask the warranty information holder what assurances they provide to protect my information.



http://www.9news.com/rss/story.aspx?storyid=313391

Interesting news article that answers your last question.

Yes, it does - thank you. Here is a C&P of that text:

"Federal law bars the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives from keeping track of guns. The only time the government can track the history of a gun, including its first buyer and seller, is after it's used in a crime."

Thanks guys, for the responses.

[Wulf202]

If I recall correctly the colorado constitution directly prohibits registration.

[asmo]

JIn the link posted by OneGuy67 in his response, it looks like out-of-business records held at ATF are NOT stored in a database and the process to retrieve a record is onerous.

There will be quite a few people, at the FTC and CJIS, happy to hear that they don't have to go to work anymore.

[Teufelhund]

Yes, it does - thank you. Here is a C&P of that text:

"Federal law bars the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives from keeping track of guns. The only time the government can track the history of a gun, including its first buyer and seller, is after it's used in a crime."

Thanks guys, for the responses.

Just to add to this, the specific federal law which prohibits the keeping of a database of guns and their owners is the Firearm Owners Protection Act (Federal Law 18 U.S.C. 926). This is the relevant section from that law:

No such rule or regulation prescribed [by the Attorney General] after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or disposition be established. Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary's authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation.

[griebel303]

This is great information and like DHC I was unclear on "registration". Thank you for the clarfication

[Ronin13]

It's sad, and I would love for this guy to meet Jim [Muaha] so he can be set straight, but in my NRA Instructor cert class, we had a Commerce City cop say that when they pull someone over it shows them if the person has a CCW Permit (as recent as DEC). Then he said when they run your license/bgc they can see a list of all the firearms you own because of the 4473. I corrected his error and said that his information is false- the 4473 is submitted with only "Pistol", "Long Gun", or "Other" checked, no info goes to CBI regarding make, model, or serial... He rebutted and said that I was wrong- I finally just said, okay, you're the cop, I'm just the guy who has multiple friendships with FFLs (ya know, the people who actually DO that stuff). [facepalm]

[blacklabel]

I've had a LEO ask me if I had a firearm on my person because he had seen that I have a CHL in the system. I wouldn't be surprised if they had more than just that on me.

[spqrzilla]

A lot of cops are full of nonsense when they talk to people. So I'm not surprised when I hear one give out false information. Sometimes its difficult to tell if they know that they are BS'ing or just ignorant.

[DHC]

There will be quite a few people, at the FTC and CJIS, happy to hear that they don't have to go to work anymore.

I apologize for missing the point of your response, but I am confused by it. Did I misinterpret the referenced article?

That article addressed the function of the ATF's National Tracing Center. Is there some connection to the FBI's Criminal Justice Information Services Division?

I can see that the anti-gun crowd would press to have all guns and their owners entered into a registry. It seems logical that an organization like the CJIS would be tasked with that duty. Running counter to that is the law cited by Teufelhund prohibiting the creation of such a registry by the Government.

Admittedly, I am just beginning to explore this and could easily be mistaken (and/or naive) in my interpretations. I welcome any 'illumination' from those more experienced and knowledgeable.

[Eggysrun]

If I recall correctly the colorado constitution directly prohibits registration.

If I recall recorrectly democrats don't give a shit about any constitution state or federal that doesn't aid their agendas lol

[asmo]

I covered this in another thread (http://www.ar-15.co/threads/82913-Background-checks-and-serial-numbers) about how your purchases can be put in FTS immediately (multiple purchases for example). That creates instant registration as it links you with the weapons. The Attorney General (for many years -- under authority of the GCA) has stated that multiple firearms purchases may be an indicator for criminal activity -- so its okay force those purchases into the FTS. This is what caused such an uproar about the reporting of long guns on MSRs in the southern border states - the Attorney General said no problem as those guns may be used in a crime (trafficing).

So, already, we have registration for weapons that have not been used in any criminal activity -- approved by the Attorney General. As has been shown, adding new classes of weapons to that list is fairly trivial since the justification (may be used in a crime) is already approved.

[OneGuy67]

While the Sheriff's are no longer putting the CCW information into CCIC like they used to due to the change in law, each Sheriff's office may keep an internal database that can be accessed by their Deputies. It may explain why people are constantly saying they are told by LEO's about their CCW. I know that when I query CCIC it isn't showing CCW's like it used to.

[OneGuy67]

I covered this in another thread (http://www.ar-15.co/threads/82913-Background-checks-and-serial-numbers) about how your purchases can be put in the FTC system immediately (multiple purchases for example). That creates instant registration as it links you with the weapons. The Attorney General (for many years) has stated that multiple firearms purchases may be an indicator for criminal activity -- so its okay force those purchases into the FTC.

So, already, we have registration for weapons that have not been used in any criminal activity.

While I don't know where you are getting your information, that hasn't been my experience with dealing with a firearm search. Most of my searches literally take several weeks to over a month to get back from the ATF and when I inquire why, I'm told it is all done by hand search of records. The only searches that come back quickly are recently purchased firearms, where it is a call to the manufacturer leading to a call to the dealer who sold it.

Again, I'm not disparaging your information, it just hasn't been my experience nor my conversations with ATF.

[Mountain Man]

The State of Colorado prohibits gun registration. CRS 29-11.7-102



29-11.7-102. Firearms database - prohibited



(1) A local government, including a law enforcement agency, shall not maintain a list or other form of record or database of:

(a) Persons who purchase or exchange firearms or who leave firearms for repair or sale on consignment;

(b) Persons who transfer firearms, unless the persons are federally licensed firearms dealers;

(c) The descriptions, including serial numbers, of firearms purchased, transferred, exchanged, or left for repair or sale on consignment.

[asmo]

While I don't know where you are getting your information, that hasn't been my experience with dealing with a firearm search. Most of my searches literally take several weeks to over a month to get back from the ATF and when I inquire why, I'm told it is all done by hand search of records. The only searches that come back quickly are recently purchased firearms, where it is a call to the manufacturer leading to a call to the dealer who sold it.

eTrace still causes a person to have to go do the search. I think there is a published number of NTC doing 350k traces a year - still takes awhile to get in queue. And its not like they have ALL the data ready to go (far far far from it).

The reasons why the recent traces are faster is because of automation of many FFLs and distributors (software based 4473s, bar codes for shipment tracking, etc.) -- at least that is what I am told.

[Great-Kazoo]

It's sad, and I would love for this guy to meet Jim [Muaha] so he can be set straight, but in my NRA Instructor cert class, we had a Commerce City cop say that when they pull someone over it shows them if the person has a CCW Permit (as recent as DEC). Then he said when they run your license/bgc they can see a list of all the firearms you own because of the 4473. I corrected his error and said that his information is false- the 4473 is submitted with only "Pistol", "Long Gun", or "Other" checked, no info goes to CBI regarding make, model, or serial... He rebutted and said that I was wrong- I finally just said, okay, you're the cop, I'm just the guy who has multiple friendships with FFLs (ya know, the people who actually DO that stuff). [facepalm]

We're talking Data base for gun registration not CCW info. Pay attention!
Regarding a Data base that was supposed to be no longer available for CCW, supposedly that was corrected. HOWEVER IF STILL IN EFFECT NOWHERE Does it come back with ANY FIREARM INFO AT ALL. When you apply for a CCW there is no place on the form that ask you to list what hand guns you will be carrying. NO WHERE.
The Sheriff's dept only knows you are applying for a CCW not the caliber / mfg of gun's. So for a CC or any other LE to tell you they KNOW What Firearms you OWN. Well once again they are full of shit.
Here is denvers
http://www.denvergov.org/Portals/720/documents/ConcealedWeapon/ccw_retired_officer_application.pdf

Here is the Sheriff's Dept of CO standard CCW application.
http://jeffco.us/jeffco/sheriff_uploads/application.pdf

No where in either application is there a question regarding Firearms, Caliber, Serial #, mfg etc. Once again Ronin for the CC cop to tell you something incorrect you should have asked him to SHOW You his source, If not to retract his statement as it is a false one. I see you said he was incorrect. UNLESS we a gun owners correct these false hoods spewed by uninformed LE's the BS will continue.
One cop told me in order to own a 50 cal you needed to pay a yearly Lic Fee. i called him on it and to date he has not produced anything to back it up besides his own ignorance. Of course his co-worker just laughed and walked away.

Regarding Multiple purchases. That form is for HAND GUN MULTIPLE PURCHASES ONLY. NO LONG GUNS. PLEASE GET IT RIGHT. You can walk in buy 2 AR's 1 12ga and 1 hand gun. No forms are filled out besides the 4473. Now you buy 2 hand guns with in a 7 day period, then a Multiple purchase form is done and LE notified.

[Great-Kazoo]

I've had a LEO ask me if I had a firearm on my person because he had seen that I have a CHL in the system. I wouldn't be surprised if they had more than just that on me.

NOT once in 26 years of CCW permit has any LE ever asked me if i was carrying, never. That CCW info was done at the time by individual sheriff's, it was not a State requirement.

[Teufelhund]

Regarding Multiple purchases. That form is for HAND GUN MULTIPLE PURCHASES ONLY. NO LONG GUNS. PLEASE GET IT RIGHT. You can walk in buy 2 AR's 1 12ga and 1 hand gun. No forms are filled out besides the 4473. Now you buy 2 hand guns with in a 7 day period, then a Multiple purchase form is done and LE notified.

Good info; I did not know this. Thanks, Jim!

So is there anything reasonable behind this policy, or just another attempt at control?

[asmo]

Regarding Multiple purchases. That form is for HAND GUN MULTIPLE PURCHASES ONLY. NO LONG GUNS. PLEASE GET IT RIGHT. You can walk in buy 2 AR's 1 12ga and 1 hand gun. No forms are filled out besides the 4473. Now you buy 2 hand guns with in a 7 day period, then a Multiple purchase form is done and LE notified.

"In August 2011, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) initiated the Multiple Sales Reporting (MSR) requirement for certain rifles. MSR requires federal firearms licensees (FFL), specifically dealers and pawnbrokers, in Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas to submit reports of multiple sales or other dispositions to an unlicensed individual of two or more rifles within five consecutive business days having the following characteristics: (1) semiautomatic; (2) a caliber greater than .22 (including .223/5.56 mm); and (3) the ability to accept detachable magazines. The National Tracing Center advised FFLs in the four border states that the program was being implemented to assist in investigating and combating the illegal movement of firearms along and across the Southwest border."

There are some tin-foil hat types who believe that this was done to test the legal waters for this to be done nationwide.. They believe that because the original wording was indeed for all FFLs nationwide -- and after some uproar they backed down to just the southern states.

[asmo]

Good info; I did not know this. Thanks, Jim!

So is there anything reasonable behind this policy, or just another attempt at control?

ATFs public position: http://www.atf.gov/publications/factsheets/factsheet-multiple-sales-reporting.html

[Great-Kazoo]

ATFs public position: http://www.atf.gov/publications/factsheets/factsheet-multiple-sales-reporting.html

That's as mentioned b4 for southern border states Not CO. Not to say that ruling would not be extended nation wide at any given time.

[Ronin13]

While I don't know where you are getting your information, that hasn't been my experience with dealing with a firearm search. Most of my searches literally take several weeks to over a month to get back from the ATF and when I inquire why, I'm told it is all done by hand search of records. The only searches that come back quickly are recently purchased firearms, where it is a call to the manufacturer leading to a call to the dealer who sold it.

Again, I'm not disparaging your information, it just hasn't been my experience nor my conversations with ATF.
From what I heard, and this was a former ATF clerk who now works for an FFL in TX (not sure how true but wouldn't surprise me)- the ATF has boxes and boxes of records stored in former conference rooms that would justify why it takes so long to get records checked... Just what I heard- and I'm not saying it's gospel so no one need to resort to name calling. [Coffee]

We're talking Data base for gun registration not CCW info. Pay attention!
Easy buddy- it was a two parter, slightly related, I know what we were talking about... I point you to the part after my quote that you bolded: "Then he said when they run your license/bgc they can see a list of all the firearms you own because of the 4473." <-False info on this particular LEO's part, like spqrzilla said- either he's BS expecting not to get caught or is just ignorant.

[Boadie30]

Does an FFL require the serial number prior to starting BG? If so why?