Legal Advice Needed - Littleton Photo Enforcement

[keylay31]

In February, I received a photo ticket addressed to me (owner of vehicle) for driving through a red light at 6am on a very snowy workday. At that time, I was asleep in bed, my wife was the one that was driving. The ticket came to me by mail, with pictures of my vehicle, a link to video of the incident, and a picture of the driver of the vehicle. All the pictures were clear except the driver shot, which was basically all white due to the snow. It was also accompanied by a bunch of threats for not paying the fine. Having talked with my wife, she felt that it was safer to continue through the just changed light rather than try to brake.

My basic understanding is that they have to actually personally serve you the ticket within 90 days, so I figured I didn't have to pay it. But since the driver picture was so bad, AND since the ticketed person wasn't the one driving the vehicle, I figured I was free and clear. I sent in a Affidavit of Non-Responsibility (not naming the responsible party) and expected to never hear of it again. I figured they would take a second look at the driver shot and figure, there's no way we can prove it was him, etc etc

Not so fast.... I get a Hearing Notification Letter yesterday in the mail that's says my Affidavit of Non-Responsibility was considered to be insufficient and I'm due to appear in court. If I choose not to appear, I waive the right to contest.

So...
1) Did I waive my right to be personally served by submitting the first affidavit?
2) What would happen if I just didn't pay or show up?
3) Since there is no picture of the driver, am I liable as the vehicle owner, or do they still have to prove guilt?
4) What's the likelihood of getting the fine waived if I show up?

I'm interested if anyone has any legal Expertise or similar experience. Thanks guys.

[Dave_L]

I'm not a lawyer but I could have sworn photo tickets are not enforceable in CO. Ill let some other, more professional types, confirm that though. I'm curious too because I got one on my b day night. My DD ran a light on his way getting us all home.

[kidicarus13]

It's my understanding that they are not enforceable without personal service. I was never concerned about the penalty related fines if I ignored those stupid traffic cameras. I've always worried about them sending the unpaid ticket to collections and screwing up my credit. You'll have many people say that they can't legally send an unpaid ticket to collections but if/when they do, now what? 2 months of letters and headaches to maybe get it resolved?

[hghclsswhitetrsh]

It's my understanding that they are not enforceable without personal service. I was never concerned about the penalty related fines if I ignored those stupid traffic cameras. I've always worried about them sending the unpaid ticket to collections and screwing up my credit. You'll have many people say that they can't legally send an unpaid ticket to collections but if/when they do, now what? 2 months of letters and headaches to maybe get it resolved?

This.

[Sharpienads]

I can't offer any advice, but I will say that I think photo enforcement is a scam.

[RCCrawler]

I'd show up to court and tell them it wasn't you. It's up to them to prove it was.

[Ronin13]

I'd show up to court and tell them it wasn't you. It's up to them to prove it was.
I'm no lawyer- but best to show up, I'm not sure if they can, but you don't want to risk a FTA warrant.

[Leatherneck Hayes]

It's my understanding that they are not enforceable without personal service. I was never concerned about the penalty related fines if I ignored those stupid traffic cameras. I've always worried about them sending the unpaid ticket to collections and screwing up my credit. You'll have many people say that they can't legally send an unpaid ticket to collections but if/when they do, now what? 2 months of letters and headaches to maybe get it resolved?

I've heard this but I agree with Ronin13 it'd be better to show up than risk getting a warrant issued

[buckeye4rnr]

When this happened to me I sent in a photocopy of my license and signed the ticket in the spot indicating it wasn't me.

[theGinsue]

When you go to court and indicate that it wasn't you, of hey ask who was driving if not you, remember that you can not be compelled to give testimony against your spouse.

[sniper7]

Since you sent in paperwork back to them you admitted you received the ticket. Best to go down and show them it wasn't you and see what happens.

Best thing to do is never respond and force them to serve you or they will just lose out and you are good to go.

[newracer]

Since you sent in paperwork back to them you admitted you received the ticket. Best to go down and show them it wasn't you and see what happens.

Best thing to do is never respond and force them to serve you or they will just lose out and you are good to go.

Exactly

[newracer]

The other way to think about this specific situation is your wife actually did run the red light and therefore she should pay the fine.

[Inconel710]

Yes, it's a money making scam for the city. I got one from Aurora and just paid the damn thing. It was not worth the hassle or the possible effects on my clearance to fight the stupid thing. Just gave me more reason to avoid the metro area.

[Ronin13]

The other way to think about this specific situation is your wife actually did run the red light and therefore she should pay the fine.
If, according to the OP, she couldn't do so safely and the best course of action was to just go through it, I'm sure a reasonable LEO, with consideration for the conditions, would not issue a ticket at all if it was a patrol officer and not a camera. Cameras can only get part of the story. I know I've ran a red or two before in crummy conditions and the light changed right in that sweet spot where stopping could be dangerous but not stopping would mean running the red.

[newracer]

If, according to the OP, she couldn't do so safely and the best course of action was to just go through it, I'm sure a reasonable LEO, with consideration for the conditions, would not issue a ticket at all if it was a patrol officer and not a camera. Cameras can only get part of the story. I know I've ran a red or two before in crummy conditions and the light changed right in that sweet spot where stopping could be dangerous but not stopping would mean running the red.

Then you are traveling too fast for the conditions which is another violation in itself.

[Ronin13]

Then you are traveling too fast for the conditions which is another violation in itself.
So you reject any possibility that someone could be in the perfect spot, driving at a reasonably safe speed, and have that problem? You've never been traveling on a road and the light changes at the point where you either won't be able to stop in time or you won't make it through before red? Never ever?

[Teufelhund]

A couple years ago I had my picture taken while driving my wife's car 5 mph over the speed limit on Yosemite, just North of 225. There was an unmarked, black Scion with a cone behind it, parked on the side of the road in the bus lane, and it snapped my picture as I passed. My wife got the ticket with my picture in the mail. She signed the paper saying it was not her and sent it back in. I got the ticket with my name on it about 4 months later. It was about $40, and since I actually was guilty, I paid it and went on with my life.

A thread gets posted here every couple months where people are complaining about red light cameras and discussing ways of not paying the fine for getting caught running a red light. Colorado is the only place I've ever lived where you can bet money that at least one car will run the red at every intersection, in every direction, at every iteration of the light. You aren't special; wait your turn.

Newracer is correct; if the road conditions are poor, you're supposed to slow down appropriately. If the light has been green for a while (a stale green), you're supposed to take your foot off the gas and anticipate the light change. They teach all of this in driver's ed. There's no excuse for running red lights IMO.

[hghclsswhitetrsh]

I got a photo radar ticket going 6 over heading southbound on Colorado blvd just south of mlk blvd. By the time I received the ticket after it went through fleet operations, and then to my department it was do the very next day. I paid it and went on with my life. I was in the wrong, I paid the price.

[Dingo]

That's weird... I've always bought the "no ticket if they can't prove it was you" idea (that's what I get for sourcing life-actions from the internet. :-) and made sure my face was obscured when I had the "oh shit it's a photo van" moment. Had my picture taken 3 times, never got a ticket. (And yes, I was legitimately speeding.)

[wreave]

It's my understanding that they are not enforceable without personal service. I was never concerned about the penalty related fines if I ignored those stupid traffic cameras. I've always worried about them sending the unpaid ticket to collections and screwing up my credit. You'll have many people say that they can't legally send an unpaid ticket to collections but if/when they do, now what? 2 months of letters and headaches to maybe get it resolved?

When you responded, you admitted accepting the notice. So they don't have to personally serve you. You shouldn't have acknowledged receiving the notice.

[Katastrophic]

Then you are traveling too fast for the conditions which is another violation in itself.

I agree with this comment as a law abiding driver but I do have one question - what would you do if you were in a car that's not that great in the snow so you drive more slowly then, say, the guy in the 4WD SUV thinks is appropriate so he's riding your ass? (This happened to me in a surprise snow storm a couple of months ago and I had to risk the red light or what I felt would surely be an accident)

[Teufelhund]

I agree with this comment as a law abiding driver but I do have one question - what would you do if you were in a car that's not that great in the snow so you drive more slowly then, say, the guy in the 4WD SUV thinks is appropriate so he's riding your ass? (This happened to me in a surprise snow storm a couple of months ago and I had to risk the red light or what I felt would surely be an accident)

Don't let the guy behind you bother you. Move over into the right lane so he can pass. If he hits you, it's 100% his fault in the eyes of the police and insurance company. You will suffer more vehicle damage and injury from getting hit from the side if you run through the red.

When people get right up on my butt, especially if they're yelling and flipping out, I take my foot off the gas until they go around.

[keylay31]

The other way to think about this specific situation is your wife actually did run the red light and therefore she should pay the fine.


Then you are traveling too fast for the conditions which is another violation in itself.


Newracer is correct; if the road conditions are poor, you're supposed to slow down appropriately. If the light has been green for a while (a stale green), you're supposed to take your foot off the gas and anticipate the light change. They teach all of this in driver's ed. There's no excuse for running red lights IMO.


If he hits you, it's 100% his fault in the eyes of the police and insurance company.

Wow, some high and mighty people here on this forum. Feel free to sit in your chair at home and play perfect... There are absolutely weather conditions and car timing where going through a red light is acceptable and is the safer choice. I've got video evidence of it with this ticket. But you're probably the type of drivers who see it go from green to yellow and slam on the brakes, causing an accident for the person behind you. But of course it's not your fault in the eyes of the police or the insurance... people will be calling you asshole behind your back.

Now, considering I'm the one on the ticket, I didn't commit the crime, and I consider those red light cameras ILLEGAL (they threaten you without any legal footing), I'm not willing to pay the fine. And I damn sure am not going to "turn in" my wife.

I came to this forum asking for advice, not your judgement. Go somewhere else.

[Stevensje]

I feel traffic cameras are BS. I'll pay the fine if a real person hands me the ticket. If not, piss off! We are human, we all speed and run yellow/Red lights on occasion. It's about bringing in revenue for the city. Another fucking tax IMHO. Before you know it drones will be giving you speeding tickets. Fucking Assholes!

[spleify]

Photo enforcement ticks most folks off. The one example I always use is; what if I am sitting in an intersection waiting to turn left and there is an old lady with a cane slowly but carefully crossing the street and the light changes? What am I supposed to do in this situation? If there were a live officer sitting there and saw I was late in catching the light because I was waiting for the old lady to cross, he/she would likely look at you and nod his/her head in approval and would move on.

I have heard a number of folks say that its not enforced if not hand delivered or whatever, can anyone provide some factual information to back that up?

[Dingo]

Drones.... I could totally see that in the near future.

[Irving]

I hate (purposeful) red light runners and red light cameras equally. I think there should be a .25 second delay before a red light camera can start taking pictures, and each vehicle after the first one triples the fine amount.

[Stevensje]

I have heard a number of folks say that its not enforced if not hand delivered or whatever, can anyone provide some factual information to back that up?[/QUOTE]

I have received about a half a dozen first and second reminders from Speer and 6th over the past few years. Usually getting stopped by traffic...Oopssss. Nothing yet... If I get one from the city I live in I pay it.

[Danimal]

Wow, some high and mighty people here on this forum. Feel free to sit in your chair at home and play perfect... There are absolutely weather conditions and car timing where going through a red light is acceptable and is the safer choice. I've got video evidence of it with this ticket. But you're probably the type of drivers who see it go from green to yellow and slam on the brakes, causing an accident for the person behind you. But of course it's not your fault in the eyes of the police or the insurance... people will be calling you asshole behind your back.

Now, considering I'm the one on the ticket, I didn't commit the crime, and I consider those red light cameras ILLEGAL (they threaten you without any legal footing), I'm not willing to pay the fine. And I damn sure am not going to "turn in" my wife.

I came to this forum asking for advice, not your judgement. Go somewhere else.

While I agree the tickets are bullshit, the law is pretty clear about running a red light and it has to be that way. The only way that they are enforceable at all is if they make an absolute statement that traveling through a red light is illegal period. Otherwise there is always an excuse that you could say "my brakes were bad, or my visor blocked the light and I could not see it"... so they had to make the action illegal regardless of circumstance and that requires the statement that if you ran it, you were either doing so on purpose, or you were out of control which is also illegal. You are in a lose lose situation here because though you are in the right, they will just make your life miserable if you require them to prove you guilty. They will send one to your wife, and the will send the bill to collections if you do not pay it. Or if you chose to defend yourself, they will eventually drop it but you have to decide what your time is worth. Innocent until proven guilty never sounds bad until you have to sit through the bullshit that they put you through just to get a ticket dropped.

Good luck and next time make sure the snow falling happens to obscure your license plate in the shape of a middle finger.

[lowbeyond]

You are guilty pay the fine blah blah.

Can't wait til July 1 when people start spouting the same nonsense over gun laws.

[ray1970]

I got one for a light my wife ran. I can lose my job over too many tickets. The photo/video was clear it was not me. I sent it back and ratted her out. That was last September. Haven't heard a peep since.

[Irving]

Haven't heard a peep since.

From your wife?

[JMBD2112]

I got flashed back in November at Mississippi and Sable in Aurora. I had a guy knock on my door at 7am on a Saturday morning and serve me the citation about a month ago and gave me the info to look up the video on line. Clearly in the video I stopped at the light but still got flashed when I made my right turn, and there are not any signs stating no turn on red. Anyways I have a court date set on Aug. 2nd, I'm debating on wether or not to fight it or just pay it.

[Jefe's AR]

Very similar thing happen to me except I received the letter you expected to get. I guess you show up and tell them the truth and decline to give up the driver as per the original form.


In February, I received a photo ticket addressed to me (owner of vehicle) for driving through a red light at 6am on a very snowy workday. At that time, I was asleep in bed, my wife was the one that was driving. The ticket came to me by mail, with pictures of my vehicle, a link to video of the incident, and a picture of the driver of the vehicle. All the pictures were clear except the driver shot, which was basically all white due to the snow. It was also accompanied by a bunch of threats for not paying the fine. Having talked with my wife, she felt that it was safer to continue through the just changed light rather than try to brake.

My basic understanding is that they have to actually personally serve you the ticket within 90 days, so I figured I didn't have to pay it. But since the driver picture was so bad, AND since the ticketed person wasn't the one driving the vehicle, I figured I was free and clear. I sent in a Affidavit of Non-Responsibility (not naming the responsible party) and expected to never hear of it again. I figured they would take a second look at the driver shot and figure, there's no way we can prove it was him, etc etc

Not so fast.... I get a Hearing Notification Letter yesterday in the mail that's says my Affidavit of Non-Responsibility was considered to be insufficient and I'm due to appear in court. If I choose not to appear, I waive the right to contest.

So...
1) Did I waive my right to be personally served by submitting the first affidavit?
2) What would happen if I just didn't pay or show up?
3) Since there is no picture of the driver, am I liable as the vehicle owner, or do they still have to prove guilt?
4) What's the likelihood of getting the fine waived if I show up?

I'm interested if anyone has any legal Expertise or similar experience. Thanks guys.

[Dunecrazzy]

I just pay them. Be done with it.

[ray1970]

From your wife?

Sheesh. I wish. No such luck. [Coffee]

[clublights]

I've Personally ignored a red light and a speed cam ticket in Denver.. I live in Denver also .. nothing ever happened other then a couple of letters in that first 90 days .

it's been over 2 years since the speed cam and about 14 months since the red light cam ticket.

I've lived in the same place the whole time.


your milage may vary.

[Irving]

I've Personally ignored a red light and a speed cam ticket in Denver.. I live in Denver also .. nothing ever happened other then a couple of letters in that first 90 days .

it's been over 2 years since the speed cam and about 14 months since the red light cam ticket.

I've lived in the same place the whole time.


your milage may vary.

Have you checked your credit since then?

[clublights]

Have you checked your credit since then?


Nothing from them.

[keylay31]

From your wife?
Yes! I was wondering the same thing! [dig]

[clublights]

My understanding is that unless they are personally served in the 90 day window they are void and NOT VALID!


here is a report from fox 31


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2rrd0L8DYrM

[car-15]

http://warondriving.com/post/9114183163/denver-dont-pay-camera-tickets

that being said someone that looks a little like me has thrown several away and has never heard back at all.

[clublights]

oh I will say to the OP
at this point the city has a judge involved. Now you gotta show up cuz the last thing in the world you wanna do is piss off a judge.

Ginsue said that they can't compel you to rat out the wife... I also believe this is true but I dunno how to do it exactly ( with out pissing said judge off)

good luck ?


next time just trash the damn thing and wait to see if the cops knock on your door and serve you with it . while this MAY happen I've not had it happen to ME or anyone I personally know how has trashed the tix.

[newracer]

Wow, some high and mighty people here on this forum. Feel free to sit in your chair at home and play perfect... There are absolutely weather conditions and car timing where going through a red light is acceptable and is the safer choice. I've got video evidence of it with this ticket. But you're probably the type of drivers who see it go from green to yellow and slam on the brakes, causing an accident for the person behind you. But of course it's not your fault in the eyes of the police or the insurance... people will be calling you asshole behind your back.

Now, considering I'm the one on the ticket, I didn't commit the crime, and I consider those red light cameras ILLEGAL (they threaten you without any legal footing), I'm not willing to pay the fine. And I damn sure am not going to "turn in" my wife.

I came to this forum asking for advice, not your judgement. Go somewhere else.

I am not judging at all and I even agreed to a post that explained how it could be handled to possibly get out of it. But the fact is your wife did run the red light. Would you be asking the same question if she ran it because she just didn't notice it change? Or was in a hurry to get somewhere and decided it was safe to run it? We all make mistakes and incorrect decisions at times and we should all be prepared to pay the consequences of those decisions.

[kidicarus13]

I can lose my job over too many tickets.

They are "no point" tickets and do not appear on your driving record regardless of final outcome.

[keylay31]

Excerpts from C.R.S. 42-4-110.5 (http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/colorado/?app=00075&view=full&interface=1&docinfo=off&searchtype=get&search=C.R.S.+42-4-110.5):


(II) If the state, a county, a city and county, or a municipality detects any alleged violation of a municipal traffic regulation or a traffic violation under state law through the use of an automated vehicle identification system, then the state, county, city and county, or municipality shall serve the penalty assessment notice or summons and complaint for the alleged violation on the defendant no later than ninety days after the alleged violation occurred. If a penalty assessment notice or summons and complaint for a violation detected using an automated vehicle identification system is personally served, the state, a county, a city and county, or a municipality may only charge the actual costs of service of process that shall be no more than the amount usually charged for civil service of process.

(e) The state, a county, a city and county, or a municipality may not require a registered owner of a vehicle to disclose the identity of a driver of the vehicle who is detected through the use of an automated vehicle identification system. However, the registered owner may be required to submit evidence that the owner was not the driver at the time of the alleged violation.

(II) Except as provided in subparagraph (I) of this paragraph (d), an automated vehicle identification system designed to detect disobedience to a traffic control signal or another violation of this article or a local traffic ordinance shall not be used unless the state, county, city and county, or municipality using such system conspicuously posts a sign notifying the public that an automated vehicle identification device is in use immediately ahead. The sign shall:

(A) Be placed in a conspicuous place not fewer than two hundred feet nor more than five hundred feet before the automated vehicle identification system; and
(B) Use lettering that is at least four inches high for upper case letters and two and nine-tenths inches high for lower case letters.


Interesting that I have to prove my innocence... I guess its time to go find those signs and qualify them (though I don't expect an issue). I can't figure out any way to submit evidence that I was not the driver at the time. I suppose I could see if I could get photographic evidence from another traffic camera that it wasn't me? Though at that point, it would show my wife. I might be able to show my iPhone was at home, though I'm not sure I could prove that the iPhone was with me at the time.

[Irving]

Just show the picture of the vehicle, without you driving it.

[keylay31]

City of Littleton Defendant Rights: (http://www.littletongov.org/index.aspx?page=662)


the right to be presumed innocent until every element has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt

Seems like the driver picture would present reasonable doubt.

[keylay31]

Just show the picture of the vehicle, without you driving it.


With this work? [ROFL2]

25661

[keylay31]

I think I'll go to court and play this one out. I'll report back.

[buckshotbarlow]

Good luck, sometimes hitting it out in court is the only way to go...