Something that bugs me...

I guarantee you this: If you were to conduct a private FTF sale and say the party you sold to was a "Prohibited Person" or otherwise unlawful to possess a firearm and something goes south afterward- you are going to have to explain rather uncomfortably to any number of various "parties" why you did not take "Reasonable Means" to confirm the purchaser was lawful to possess and purchase said firearm.
You could be found guilty of not taking "Reasonable Means" to ensure that the party you sold was not a "Prohibited Person".
That could make you directly liable for any malfeasance the purchaser committed with the firearm they purchased from you.

If you are not willing to:
A- Provide a valid CO ID.
B- Affirm that you are not a "Prohibited Person" as defined by BATF.
C- Not willing to accept a Bill of Sale.
You give me reasonable cause to suspect that you are not lawfully entitled to possess a firearm.
You will be walking away empty handed.

FWIW - in all the FTF purchases I've made, I can't recall anyone ever actually asking to see my ID, regardless of whether they stated so in their ad or not. And I've bought several guns from members here.

Oh wait, the Winchester Trapper I bought came from an FBI agent, and I believe he DID ask to see my DL. I think. Also did a bill of sale.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BPTactical

I guarantee you this: If you were to conduct a private FTF sale and say the party you sold to was a "Prohibited Person" or otherwise unlawful to possess a firearm and something goes south afterward- you are going to have to explain rather uncomfortably to any number of various "parties" why you did not take "Reasonable Means" to confirm the purchaser was lawful to possess and purchase said firearm.
You could be found guilty of not taking "Reasonable Means" to ensure that the party you sold was not a "Prohibited Person".
That could make you directly liable for any malfeasance the purchaser committed with the firearm they purchased from you.

If you are not willing to:
A- Provide a valid CO ID.
B- Affirm that you are not a "Prohibited Person" as defined by BATF.
C- Not willing to accept a Bill of Sale.
You give me reasonable cause to suspect that you are not lawfully entitled to possess a firearm.
You will be walking away empty handed.

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A. Why? I don't have to, it's not the law nor should it be.
B. I'm not willing to make an uneccessary paper trail so YOU feel comfortable. I have to feel comfortable first and foremost. That means not giving out information to people I don't know just to purchase a sporting good.
C. No, I'm not willing to accept or sign a bill of sale. I don't have to, nor do I want to cultivate that line of thinking. It sets a precedent that makes us less free as men and citizens who are protected by the 2nd Amendment.

If you give me reasonable doubt to believe you or your sale item are suspect, YOU will walk away without my cash. It's that simple. Also, if I wanted paperwork on a gun, I'd just buy it from a dealer. A private sale FTF with a simple" are you legal to own a firearm in Colorado" is suffecient, if you must.

well I guess we know who isnt owning a can or an SBR

:D

Seriously, every buyer has their own requirements.
Typically its stated in the sales advert beforehand, if you like it, go with it. if not, Don't! Ive passed on Sales wanting a papertrail.. you can too. If you have a question about it, calmly send him/her a polite PM asking if they are willing to forgo the BoS.


its not unreasonable to ask for an I.D. That's a seller covering his ass against a sting. "yes, I attempted to insure the buyer was a resident and of legal age to posses.".... Tada!
most people don't remember addresses 30 minutes afterward anyways.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jumpstart

A. Why? I don't have to, it's not the law nor should it be.
B. I'm not willing to make an uneccessary paper trail so YOU feel comfortable. I have to feel comfortable first and foremost. That means not giving out information to people I don't know just to purchase a sporting good.
C. No, I'm not willing to accept or sign a bill of sale. I don't have to, nor do I want to cultivate that line of thinking. It sets a precedent that makes us less free as men and citizens who are protected by the 2nd Amendment.

If you give me reasonable doubt to believe you or your sale item are suspect, YOU will walk away without my cash. It's that simple. Also, if I wanted paperwork on a gun, I'd just buy it from a dealer. A private sale FTF with a simple" are you legal to own a firearm in Colorado" is suffecient, if you must.

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A- If that is what the seller asks for, that is his choice.
B- I understand your point but we are not selling ice skates and hockey sticks either. We are transferring a firearm and there are certain legalities and morals involved.
C- Whether you accept a bill of sale or not is your choice.

I have worked the retail end of this business and have seen what happens if a firearm is traced back to a seller.
You had best have your shit together.
We have to face the facts, we live in a very litigious society where nobody is willing to accept the consiquences of their own actions. Everything is somebody elses fault and they will do whatever they can to place blame on another.
When I sell/trade a firearm I want to see an ID. You will affirm that you are lawfully entitled to own a firearm in writing and a Bill of Sale will be drafted.
Whether you want one for your records is irrelevant to me. It is not for your benefit. For all I care you can make a paper airplane out of it and sail it out the window.
I keep records of aquisition and disposal of every firearm I have owned with whom it was transferred to and a date and time documented.
It just makes good sense if an incident were ever to occur with an item I transferred.
If I am ever asked what happened to item X I have taken a reasonable means to minimize my culpability legally. That is what a prosecutor looks at along with a judge and jury.
"Did the defendant take a reasonable means/care to ensure that the transfer was done lawfully"
I know that if I am ever called into court and asked that question my attorney can answer yes with documentation to substantiate it.
Ignorance is not defensible.

As far as the Second Admendment it will mean nothing if you are found guilty of an unlawful transfer.
I highly doubt that a defense of "It's my Second Admendment right" will hold much water as a defense in an unlawful transfer case.
Like it or not that is the world we are in.

What you want in a FTF sale is your business.
What I want in a FTF sale is mine.
If we dont agree then no sale, right?

Our freedoms in action!

Speaking of freedoms and rights- if you dont take steps to protect yours they will be taken away.........

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BPTactical

"Did the defendant take a reasonable means/care to ensure that the transfer was done
lawfully"

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Just wondering, what do YOU consider to be a lawfull FTF private sale?

Lawfully, for a FTF private sale, the only requirement is that you do not knowingly sell to a prohibited person.

Quote from the BATF FAQ page......

Quote:

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(B16) What record-keeping procedures should be followed when two private individuals want to engage in a firearms transaction?

When a transaction takes place between private (unlicensed) persons who reside in the same State, the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not require any record keeping. A private person may sell a firearm to another private individual in his or her State of residence and, similarly, a private individual may buy a firearm from another private person who resides in the same State. It is not necessary under Federal law for a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) to assist in the sale or transfer when the buyer and seller are "same-State" residents. Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA. See 18 U.S. C. §§ 922(g) and (n). However, as stated above, there are no GCA-required records to be completed by either party to the transfer.

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A seller making up his/her own rules, for a FTF sale is one thing, and their prerogative.
But "implying" that it is the LAW, is quite another.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jumpstart

A. Why? I don't have to, it's not the law nor should it be.
B. I'm not willing to make an uneccessary paper trail so YOU feel comfortable. I have to feel comfortable first and foremost. That means not giving out information to people I don't know just to purchase a sporting good.
C. No, I'm not willing to accept or sign a bill of sale. I don't have to, nor do I want to cultivate that line of thinking. It sets a precedent that makes us less free as men and citizens who are protected by the 2nd Amendment.

If you give me reasonable doubt to believe you or your sale item are suspect, YOU will walk away without my cash. It's that simple. Also, if I wanted paperwork on a gun, I'd just buy it from a dealer. A private sale FTF with a simple" are you legal to own a firearm in Colorado" is suffecient, if you must.

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Thank you Jumpstart. Because BPtactical is a dealer, they feel that we should be held to the same standards. That's bullshit. If I did sell to someone that shouldn't have a gun, and the feds or anyone else came by asking, they can talk to my lawyer. And I'm quite sure we can prove that I did everything that was necessary.

"I have worked the retail end of this business and have seen what happens if a firearm is traced back to a seller.
You had best have your shit together."

Again, I don't have to have a paper trail, I don't have to have documentation, I don't have to have anything. Because I am not a "retail seller"!

Just do a search for "Bill of* Sale" on here and read the 3 page thread that's already been gone over more than once.

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Originally Posted by StagLefty

2 sites asking for an ID should have been your first hint that maybe that's just the way it is ????

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I think that this is insulting. A. Not everyone on either of these sites say in their posts that a DL is required. B. A lot of people will follow a bandwagon, or are fearful of the government and try to be too helpful to the government tough guys. As an ex-cop, I know this to be true. How many people do you think, in the hundred or so stops I made said no to a vehicle search? I'll tell you, NONE. Following your logic, if I found a couple of websites where the majority of the posters said they were vampires, I should assume that vampires exist.????

I admitted to ignorance of that law. It was a while ago that I read, or was told the statutes, and obviously I read it wrong, or the person I heard it from told me wrong. I merely continued to believe what I already thought to be true. I don't need you to get on here and attempt to be offensive.