Body-Cam Video Of Daniel Shaver Shooting

Regarding the convoluted instructions the officer gave...

When I was working the street, and especially after I became a FTO, one thing that irritated me more than anything was someone giving complicated instructions like that.

Imagine a high-risk car stop. It was typical to hear something like this, especially from rookies just out on the street:

"Driver! With your right hand reach outside the window and open the vehicle door. Exit the vehicle. Turn around, face away from me, walk backwards to the sound of my voice, get down on one knee, get down on the other knee, blah, blah, blah, do this, do that, cross your feet such and such a way, you din't say 'mother may I?', etc... It's much like using police jargon when writing reports that could be much better by using normal, layman's language.

Most of the guys recognized, after doing it that way the first time, how confusing it is not only to do, but to follow. And how much easier it was to say something like, "GET OUT OF THE CAR NOW AND LEMME SEE YOUR HANDS!", "GET ON THE GROUND AND DON'T MOVE!".

all of this comes down to selection, evaluation and training failures on the leadership of the PD. ITS SAD. But there really are a laundry list of people to blame for the death besides for shooter. Use the body cam footage as training aid to stop this from happening again.

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Originally Posted by Bailey Guns

Imagine a high-risk car stop. It was typical to hear something like this, especially from rookies just out on the street:

"Driver! With your right hand reach outside the window and open the vehicle door. Exit the vehicle. Turn around, face away from me, walk backwards to the sound of my voice, get down on one knee, get down on the other knee, blah, blah, blah, do this, do that, cross your feet such and such a way, you din't say 'mother may I?', etc... It's much like using police jargon when writing reports that could be much better by using normal, layman's language.

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Bailey, why was that a common way for rookies to give commands?

I have no doubt that the prosecution brought up many of the points you're making regarding Shaver's psychological profile. But the truth is, you don't know his mindset at the time of the shooting. And apparently, whatever his mindset was as presented by testimony and/or other evidence, the jury found his version to be more credible than that presented by the prosecution.

I have to say I'm in agreement with MarkCO on this one. I'm not justifying what happened at all...especially the guy shouting instructions. That stressed me just watching the video. And I'm not so sure the guy should've been acquitted, either. If I had to make a guess and speculate on why this trial ended with an acquittal I'd have to say it's because somehow, somewhere, the prosecution dropped the ball.

ETA: On the other hand, when the jury hears the officer say, "I did exactly what I was taught to do" (in so many words), and the guy responsible for training says, "he did exactly what we taught him to do"...that's some pretty powerful testimony.

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Originally Posted by hollohas

Bailey, why was that a common way for rookies to give commands?

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Because that's how it was taught. At least back then in the 80s and 90s. I always hated that.

I only know what I saw in the video, but when I watch I don't necessarily see someone who's native state would be considered "trigger happy." I think it's possible that when you're holding a gun on someone, and the person shouting all the commands is freaking the fuck out and losing his mind, you're probably pretty amped up at that point. "Geez, this seems to be a bigger deal than I thought, he keeps threatening to kill them, guess I'd better be ready to actually pull the trigger here so no one on my team does due to my hesitating." Obviously I've no experience with this, but I can at least see that side of why this happened. It doesn't excuse that it happened, just probably more likely than that PD having a team of blood thirsty murders out running the streets.

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Originally Posted by Irving

I only know what I saw in the video, but when I watch I don't necessarily see someone who's native state would be considered "trigger happy." I think it's possible that when you're holding a gun on someone, and the person shouting all the commands is freaking the fuck out and losing his mind, you're probably pretty amped up at that point. "Geez, this seems to be a bigger deal than I thought, he keeps threatening to kill them, guess I'd better be ready to actually pull the trigger here so no one on my team does due to my hesitating." Obviously I've no experience with this, but I can at least see that side of why this happened. It doesn't excuse that it happened, just probably more likely than that PD having a team of blood thirsty murders out running the streets.

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That sort of situation is when you recognize your team mate is having an issue and step in to calm the situation.

While kind of an aside, I recall when my TC (SSG) reached the portion in a gunnery table where the gunner goes black and TC has to initiate a mock call for fire mission. He started wigging out and totally screwing up the call for fire. My wingman TC, a SGT, broke in the sequence on the net and started issuing corrections and proper call for fire procedures. SSG literally threw down the mic and whined, "he's stepping on my toes". No, he was saving our evolution while SSG pissed all over his own face for the world to hear.

No one is perfect all the time. It's ok to step in, even if junior, to correct a situation spiraling out of control.

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Originally Posted by CavSct1983

That sort of situation is when you recognize your team mate is having an issue and step in to calm the situation.

While kind of an aside, I recall when my TC (SSG) reached the portion in a gunnery table where the gunner goes black and TC has to initiate a mock call for fire mission. He started wigging out and totally screwing up the call for fire. My wingman TC, a SGT, broke in the sequence on the net and started issuing corrections and proper call for fire procedures. SSG literally threw down the mic and whined, "he's stepping on my toes". No, he was saving our evolution while SSG pissed all over his own face for the world to hear.

No one is perfect all the time. It's ok to step in, even if junior, to correct a situation spiraling out of control.

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You care to reiterate that in layman's terms?

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Originally Posted by Irving

I only know what I saw in the video, but when I watch I don't necessarily see someone who's native state would be considered "trigger happy." I think it's possible that when you're holding a gun on someone, and the person shouting all the commands is freaking the fuck out and losing his mind, you're probably pretty amped up at that point. "Geez, this seems to be a bigger deal than I thought, he keeps threatening to kill them, guess I'd better be ready to actually pull the trigger here so no one on my team does due to my hesitating." Obviously I've no experience with this, but I can at least see that side of why this happened. It doesn't excuse that it happened, just probably more likely than that PD having a team of blood thirsty murders out running the streets.

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That seems like a perfectly reasonable view of the situation.

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Originally Posted by CavSct1983

That sort of situation is when you recognize your team mate is having an issue and step in to calm the situation.

<snip>

No one is perfect all the time. It's ok to step in, even if junior, to correct a situation spiraling out of control.

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What did you see in the video that leads you to believe the shooter was having an issue or spiraling out of control?

crays -

We were doing gunnery and the SSG had to call for fire. Got flustered. Junior NCO stepped over him on the net to complete the evolution and SSG got pissy about it, but Junior NCO did the right thing.

Bailey Guns -

I was replying to Irving who was talking about the state of mind of the shooter potentially being amped due to the other officer getting out of control with his commands. It is my understanding the shooter was not the one giving commands. It's the responsibility of everyone to maintain their own head and to assist with control of the situation.

I gotcha. You're talking about someone telling the sgt (who seems to have been doing all the screaming at the guy) to maybe take it down a notch or two? Agreed.

This article, in my opinion, is a reasonable explanation of possible reasons the jury acquitted the officer:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/ju...rticle/2642978

I'm anxious to hear what one or more of the jurors had to say about this trial. I hope they choose to talk about it.

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Originally Posted by CavSct1983

That sort of situation is when you recognize your team mate is having an issue and step in to calm the situation.

While kind of an aside, I recall when my TC (SSG) reached the portion in a gunnery table where the gunner goes black and TC has to initiate a mock call for fire mission. He started wigging out and totally screwing up the call for fire. My wingman TC, a SGT, broke in the sequence on the net and started issuing corrections and proper call for fire procedures. SSG literally threw down the mic and whined, "he's stepping on my toes". No, he was saving our evolution while SSG pissed all over his own face for the world to hear.

No one is perfect all the time. It's ok to step in, even if junior, to correct a situation spiraling out of control.

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I agree, but not everyone, especially newbs are going to say anything. Crappy, but certainly understandable human nature to let some asshole's fury stay pointed at someone else. Especially if they felt that the already out of control situation would only get worse trying to step in. I'd like to think that were I in the shooter's position, I probably wouldn't have said anything, but wouldn't have fired.

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Originally Posted by Irving

I think it's possible that when you're holding a gun on someone, and the person shouting all the commands is freaking the fuck out and losing his mind, you're probably pretty amped up at that point. "Geez, this seems to be a bigger deal than I thought, he keeps threatening to kill them, guess I'd better be ready to actually pull the trigger here so no one on my team does due to my hesitating." .

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This brings up an interesting point. It seems sometimes these sorts of situations, when regular street officers respond in groups to potentially dangerous contacts, that the situation can escalate easily rather than de-escalate due to the group response. The group feeds off each other's high energy/emotions. Regular street officers don't necessarily get much team training like swat guys do. Their desire to not let the "team" down can seem to overtake the more appropriate goal of serving and protecting civilians.

(RE: look at the semi recent event in Arapahoe county where responding officers from multiple agencies, after 15 minutes of yelled commands we're ignored by a potentially dangerous individual, it escalated into the firing of something like 50+ rounds at a stopped car. One of the deputies even put 28 rounds into the top of a Trooper's car.)

I was raised by a State Patrol officer who worked a long and lonely stretch of road not far from the southern border. With backup a LONG way away. As I understand it, de-escalation becomes priority when you are all alone. Commands given are of the utmost importance to achieving that goal. Starting a fight man-o y man-o could be problematic. Especially because during much of my Dad's career radios weren't worn on their belt, so backup couldn't be called after a fight started.

Even with that in mind, the officers were not taught that shooting>hands on. Hand-to-hand was extensively taught. And officers oftentimes attempted to detain violent, unarmed bad guys, even solo. This was before modern tasers. Mace was carried but not preferred due to the possibility that it could actually harm the officer. It sounds like nightsticks were a popular tool to encourage compliance.

Point is, on the surface you would think that a solo officer would be more inclined to be jumpy and shoot, but maybe a group who's untrained in team tactics can actually snowball the situation more easily?

Lots of points of view presented, no personal attacks, and educational. Good work folks, on a bad event.

Anyone here try to crawl on your knees alone, hands in the air, with your legs crossed?

I just did, about 2" per crawl. Why subject anyone to that lengthy, difficult, and potentially painful ordeal that only exposes everyone involved for longer than necessary?

Why wasn't he instructed to STOP after starting to hand crawl? If he wasn't following instruction, he needs to be corrected, but not by shooting him.

What a hot mess.

*IF* Mr. Shaver would have had a weapon on him, but had not physically got it into play, and it had been concealed in his waistband 6 o'clock, what, I wonder, would the general consensus have been had he still been shot and killed with both his hands empty.

Alternatively what if he had produced a weapon and used it, vs. not been able to use it and still been killed?

I ask these hypotheticals to get a gauge of where people's line in the sand is drawn.

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Originally Posted by MOLON LABE

*IF* Mr. Shaver would have had a weapon on him, but had not physically got it into play, and it had been concealed in his waistband 6 o'clock, what, I wonder, would the general consensus have been had he still been shot and killed with both his hands empty.

Alternatively what if he had produced a weapon and used it, vs. not been able to use it and still been killed?

I ask these hypotheticals to get a gauge of where people's line in the sand is drawn.

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I can see the movement in the video that might have caused someone on edge to shoot.

That said, the whole events as played out are a trainwreck from the beginning - and I'll qualify by stating that my thoughts are not coming from any LE background.

For me, everyone involved was culpable to some degree for that man's unnecessary death.

I understand why many folk here get pissed off when people engage in "cop bashing" ... but videos like this (and the cop's acquittal) make it hard for the average citizen to counter the anti-cop voices out there.

I can't bring myself to defend this officers actions one iota and I certainly hope that he is never allowed to wear a badge again.

Disturbing video. Sad outcome to a non-issue 911 call.

I am not LEO but I can imagine a sense of anxiety when responding to a ' man with a gun ' call. Lots of woulda, coulda shoulda here.

I would be upset over the verdict if I were a family member.

Did they mention the departed victim's race!

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Originally Posted by flogger

Did they mention the departed victim's race!

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Of course not. Otherwise there may have been mayhem in the streets in protest.

(No there wouldn't)

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Originally Posted by foxtrot

Four officers pointing (presumably) AR-15's at him, ready to fire. In the position he is in, the average reaction time to register that he has a gun and to pull the trigger on him several times is significantly shorter than the amount of time he requires to retrieve the gun, rotate his arm forward towards the officers, and pull the trigger.

So if he produced a weapon while crawling and used it before the officers fired on him, I'd want drug tests as their reflexes would be slowed to the point to have questions.

Only when he is standing, with a hand held near the (imaginary gun) position on an (presumably open carry) could he potentially draw and fire on officers who are already aiming at him within margins of (slower) reactions if he had skill.

This is all different when an officer has his weapon holstered and is surprised. But four officers with AR's pointed on you ready to fire before you have a weapon? You've got the same chance to get a wendy's soft serve in hell as you do successfully drawing and staying alive long enough to even get it pointed over there. It isn't hollywood, this is the same reason your chance of drawing a concealed weapon is nill if someone has a gun pointed on you, finger on the trigger, much less four people drawn on you.


ETA: I guess my point is, they had such an advantage in the situation that deescalation and hesitation is appropriate. E.g. shooting because he moves? Not good enough. Shooting because they see a weapon? Justified, and still within the margins to mitigate or altogether eliminate risk to the officers.

If we're talking one officer, with a weapon holstered, and all the sudden the suspect reaches into his wasteband, it would be much more justified for that officer to draw and fire in a panic; because their is a real belief his life is in jeopardy and there wouldn't be the time to hesitate.

Someone crawling on the floor makes a mistake with four AR's pointed at them? Sorry, it's real hard for me to believe the officer had a credible belief of risk to his life in that millisecond - e.g. one where he would lose the tactical advantage or be unable to react to save life. The second a weapon was visible? Sure. But they do have the time in this situation to discern that, where in the former (lone officer, holstered weapon) does not.

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Makes sense, appreciate the response.

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I'm no expert on any of this, and I'm with Brutals assessment of the situation.

The video that I watched shows me an unnecessary death. Pretty clear to me the subject was trying to follow the messed up directions being given....even though he did start crawling on all fours.

This is a shitty shoot IMO....that guy shouldn't have died.

I do feel the directives were confusing and done in an agitated state. We all know, after the fact, the victim was not a threat. But after watching the video a few times the victim was told to keep his hands up more than once. Twice he lowered his hand(s) to behind his back. The first time, he got a "pass", which if there was a time to shoot I feel was then. The second time he paid with his life. I'm starting to feel, maybe, the shoot was good but what lead up to it was a fucked-up mess.

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Originally Posted by MOLON LABE

*IF* Mr. Shaver would have had a weapon on him...

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*IF* Michael Brown actually had his hands up and hadn't robbed a bodega ...

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Originally Posted by Zundfolge

*IF* Michael Brown actually had his hands up and hadn't robbed a bodega ...

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?

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That is ridiculous! That “cop” should be going to prison. He is obviously way to trigger happy and unprofessional to be anything more then an unarmed mall security guard.

I also blame on a damn jurors.
This case, Zarate (ca), Ynez (mn), and that Australian women (also in mn) are worst.

Why is it? Great defense? Lack of prep from prodecutors?

That is homicide.

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Originally Posted by Bailey Guns

Regarding the convoluted instructions the officer gave...

When I was working the street, and especially after I became a FTO, one thing that irritated me more than anything was someone giving complicated instructions like that.

Imagine a high-risk car stop. It was typical to hear something like this, especially from rookies just out on the street:

"Driver! With your right hand reach outside the window and open the vehicle door. Exit the vehicle. Turn around, face away from me, walk backwards to the sound of my voice, get down on one knee, get down on the other knee, blah, blah, blah, do this, do that, cross your feet such and such a way, you din't say 'mother may I?', etc... It's much like using police jargon when writing reports that could be much better by using normal, layman's language.

Most of the guys recognized, after doing it that way the first time, how confusing it is not only to do, but to follow. And how much easier it was to say something like, "GET OUT OF THE CAR NOW AND LEMME SEE YOUR HANDS!", "GET ON THE GROUND AND DON'T MOVE!".

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Originally Posted by Bailey Guns

Because that's how it was taught. At least back then in the 80s and 90s. I always hated that.

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Thankfully training has changed- I was taught during high-risk (felony) stops to keep your instructions short, sweet, and idiot-level simply. "Get out of the car with your hands up. Walk towards me with your hands up. Stop. Turn around. Do not move." Cuff, and move to secured position, have another officer pat down and place in car. Move on to the next occupant.

When talking about these situations, people say "Why didn't they just prone him out there and cuff?" We're always taught known vs unknown. They dominated that hall way from where they were, had ample cover to bring suspects into custody from there (whoever was in charge decided that, and I can't fault that decision). We're taught to bring the suspects to us. This is where it fell apart. I've never been taught, in all my UOF or felony stop training, to have someone go to their knees and then move to where I am. That's inviting problems. This time it ended in the worst way. It looked to me (Someone who wasn't there, wasn't in that mindset) that the kid was trying to pull his pants up, and that's the move that was interpreted as a "furtive" movement that got him shot. I think it came down to training and execution. Both were deeply flawed.

Personally, after seeing the video, and seeing what the officer had on his rifle- he might have been unstable and looking to get into a shooting. Warning sign #1. His demeanor and attitude should have been noticed prior to this incident, and that's on his command/supervisors. You usually notice warning signs that officers are probable liabilities. What they say in the locker room, what they do in training. In this day-and-age some parts of the job require a level of aggressiveness. But also the job requires a level head during stressful situations. That's my $.02.

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Originally Posted by CavSct1983

That sort of situation is when you recognize your team mate is having an issue and step in to calm the situation.

No one is perfect all the time. It's ok to step in, even if junior, to correct a situation spiraling out of control.

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This! Nothing says you can't stop things and say "Hey, let me handle this from here." If it appears like your partner is getting too amped, or stressed, or what have you.

Bad shoot.

However, to those that say the cops should have just cuffed him where he lay, the cops were likely concerned about whether or not there was a gunman still in the room. They wanted to remain out of sight of the peep-hole.

Then again, they seemed to just wander up to the door after the shooting, so all-around piss-poor Mesa police tactics on display.

All of my dust covers say things like "I'm sorry," or "I wish things could have been different," or "I never wanted this." Some of them even say things like "See that game last night?" and "On your left!"

For some strange reason I believe you. [Coffee]

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Originally Posted by Irving

All of my dust covers say things like "I'm sorry," or "I wish things could have been different," or "I never wanted this." Some of them even say things like "See that game last night?" and "On your left!"

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Where do you get these? I would actually have these hahahahaha