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Reform unions is the answer, not elimination. There needs to be balance. I agree that Unions have caused issues esp in Detroit. But the main reason Detroit has a problem has to do with the eliminations of tariffs. No American can compete in a nation where the cost of living is 5000 dollars a year when the Americans cost is 50K. Unions did not do that to us, corporations and the politicians they own outsourced the middle class.
Sorry, I cannot agree. I own several businesses and I eliminated health care in lieu of granting pay raises to all my employees so they can purchase their own health care since it's far less expensive than a company plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by nynco
I think we differ on that one. I do think we need to do something about bringing back manufacturing to the states, I don't know if tariffs can be the answer. As for Detroit, the unions have the biggest hand in destroying the industry in that city. Example: All manufacturing facilities have machine operators and assemblers, lets say a typical wage for an assembler at a non-union plant is $12/hr. Not great pay, but not bad for unskilled labor. Same type of unskilled labor at a UAW infested plant in Dertoit/Flint/wherever is forced by unions to pay the worker $25/hr, plus another $5/hr into the union pension fund. That's great for the worker to make that kind of money for putting a bolt into a door. Not so great for the company having to pay its employees that much and not being able to develop new product for lack of R&D funds.Quote:
Originally Posted by nynco
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Originally Posted by nynco
Your own logic is laughably off base. We could tax 100% of every taxpayer's income and we would not even make a dent in the debt we have right now.
Higher taxes are never the answer.
And on the topic, I am still on Baby Step #2. Should be debt-free by this time next year.
The top 1% of earners pay about 38% of all federal income tax.Quote:
Originally Posted by cstone
48% of Americans pay zero or negative net income taxes (due to earned income credits).
I'll have to find the documentation, but the numbers are pretty solid.
Edit: Info comes from the IRS
http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/f...s-20101005.pdf
The top 5% of earners account for almost 59% of federal income tax. This is for people making more than $159,614 in 2009.
The vast amount of wealth earned in this nation comes from investments... there is no logical reason why a working man should be taxed more than an investor. We have a budget shortfall. The only way to fix this is to cut and tax more. Tax those who have the most and already don't pay enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drilldov2.0
I hear a great deal about flat tax for all....... why are you afraid of a flat tax for investment income? Income is income is income...
Todays current economic reality and why the top 10% pay so much..... because the rest of us are not getting paid period.
http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lg...0uujo1_500.jpg
todays reality post 2007 is even worse for the middle class.
That is where you are wrong. Cut all the entitlement programs. Defense cuts meed yo be made. More power given back to the people and responsibility with it. If you want taxes raised then you can personally donate to whatever program or organization you choose but I am tired of the government spending my money for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by nynco
You are just chalk full or horrible ideas.
No a .gov spending what money it has coming in, not a metric shit ton more. You fail.Quote:
Originally Posted by nynco
Sniper, You are just chalk full or horrible ideas too
And you really think they are going to keep business or jobs here when their taxes take a major hike? Your libtard sense is even near off the charts from all the other ones we have on here.Quote:
Originally Posted by nynco
.
More taxes kills jobs. Less jobs is more entitlement money to pay for basics. No spare change means the economy slows. That slows business which cuts more jobs.
That is where we are at now and you are proposing to keep the same failed logic going. You need to go to front range and take economics for dummies.
Taxes on business use to make up over 20% of all gov revenue in the 1960s. Today less than 7%. Most large business pay NO taxes. See GE... That leaves the small businessman paying all the taxes that those mega corporations do not any more. End their tax breaks. Then lower the rate on all business. Make it a level playing field.
No proof again. Just spouting bullshit like a true libtard. Where is the ignore button when you need one.Quote:
Originally Posted by nynco
You should look at just how much money the car companies can pull in the amount of jobs they provide and how much they actually spend on r&d and concepts and sponsoring and advertising.Quote:
Originally Posted by jscwerve
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Originally Posted by sniper7
Oh, absolutely, they are huge companies that spend billions on those things, I wasn't saying they didn't. I agree with you. I was just saying that the unions had a big hand in the decline of the American auto industry. Hell, I've been employed by the auto industry myself (in manufacturing). Of course the plant I worked in was purchased by a forign company and got shut down. [Tooth]
Are you a socialist? Tax more to give to those who are lazy and don't do shit. Taxing those people more (me included) is not going to do a damn thing but give the. Gov more money to blow on worthless programs. I don't want my money funding abortion or welfare or Medicaid. If I want to help someone I will donate. For the tree huggers and whale humpers that equates to tossing a couple more plankton in the mouth of blue whale. He isn't going to suddenly get full and not eat any more.Quote:
Originally Posted by nynco
Find a reliable source. This comes from the state of the worst of the worse who can't control their spending despite some of the highest taxes in the country.Quote:
Originally Posted by nynco
Please explain one to me oh man of men....Quote:
Originally Posted by nynco
http://thereformedmind.files.wordpre...-pie-chart.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by nynco
Since you like charts...the "rich" already pay more actual dollars into the kitty, and receive fewer benefits per capita (since they don't rely on social programs, social security, Medicare, etc.).
I am all for a flat tax across the board... including those bottom 50% who currently pay nothing. A federal consumption tax would be beneficial as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by nynco
But before we start taxing the people and businesses even more, we need to cut the size of the massive, bloated government which has grown exponentially under this President, starting with the useless Czars. Our economy cannot sustain further tax increases for the wealthiest and corporations right now. They will simply move their wealth and businesses to an environment more conducive to profitability, which would only hurt us more.
You want to explain how expanding the administrations current tax, spend, print, increase regulations policy, which resulted in a .4% GDP growth in the first Quarter of this year, would somehow suddenly work now after proven to be a dismal failure?
Our government doesn't seem to be able to grasp even basic math, let alone economics.
Businesses do NOT pay taxes. Their customers do, as a pass through expense. If the market will not support higher prices (due to foreign competition), businesses have a few choices: Cut costs (labor is usually the greatest expense, so to reduce costs they either reduce the number of employees, reduce what they pay employees, or move production to areas with more favorable conditions, i.e. overseas), accept a lower profit margin (unlikely, and not fiscally responsible for continued survival in many cases), or change their business model to offer an inferior product for the same cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by nynco
Given the proportions of earnings that those upper classes take in, the number should be even higher and it would be even higher if we had a flat tax on all forms of income.Quote:
Originally Posted by TFOGGER
The conservative mime about the middle class paying not enough taxes is a well articulated misleading statement (lie). They look at income tax alone. They don't include payrol taxes, (which there are several forms of this graph around) things like soc sec and medicare which the poor and the middle class pay a higher rate as a percentage of total earnings than the wealthy. Make over 100K and you pay NO soc sec. Make wages from cap gains, you pay neither. It looks like the wealthy pay so much but this is because they earn WAY more than we do. In fact since the 80s their income has tripled while the middle class has lost wages.
Easy way to explain why the rich pay so much......... 99 people in a room they all make 50K a year. Say they are all taxed at a flat rate of 25%. Then Bill gates walks in the room..... guess what Bill gates at the same flat rate still pays 99% of the taxes in the room. Heck you could tax the other 99 guys at 100% and Bill would still pay 99%.
Truth is if we stopped this stupid game of classifying investing different from a Drs working wages, we could fix our deficit and pay down the debt in no time. "But thats class warfare"........ you are correct and the middle class is losing. Its the other classes that started it.
This is wrong....... when taxes go up, business has several choices, only one is pass the cost onto the consumer. Either cut profits, cut wages or raise prices. Or a 4th, invest profit back into the business to hide it from gov taxes. Which is what many did in the 1960s.Quote:
Originally Posted by TFOGGER
Wallstreet has seen the largest profits in history for the last 2 years while the rest of us got the shaft. When are you going to think outside your box? Because your box does not seem to have the answers?
As to moving production over seas, that should be taxed on any products that those traitor companies want to import. We should lower taxes here and tax the shit out of imports. Just like the founders of this nation did all the way till Reagan.
About the debt.......Page 4 of the official Standard & Poors “Research Update” – the actual report on what they did and why – published on August 5th as the explanation for why they believe Congress – and even the Gang of Twelve – will be unable to actually deal with the US debt crisis.
“We have changed our assumption on this because the majority of Republicans in Congress continue to resist any measure that would raise revenues, a position we believe Congress reinforced by passing the act.”
Even Wallstreet is turning against the GOPs cut only plan.
yes, lets give the government more money. they have been oh so responsible with the amount they are given thus far, why not give more? is that some kind of a joke?
we don't have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem. the government is far bigger and involved in far more than it was originally designed to be. and we are supposed to now give them more, after they have completely blown all the money we gave them? you can't be serious.
if politicians put a REAL plan, with SERIOUS intentions to cut the debt, and set taxes higher for one, two, or a few years, with it all laid out on how much of the debt they were going to reduce, and completely cut off certain worthless organizations that the government should never have been involved in to begin with, then i would be all for raising taxes. i want to do my part to help the country. giving an irrepsonsible government more money, to a poor, simple minded fool like myself, doesn't make a lot of sense. sometimes with addicts, you have to cut them off to make them realize their errors.
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Originally Posted by nynco
to rational folk, its not about "cuts only". raising taxes is fine if it actually made a difference. im not for giving anyone more money until they prove they can be responsible and are seriously changing their ways, and that means cuts. not little, stupid, tiny cuts. big, massive, back to the basic, back to the way it was designed to be, cuts. hurtful cuts. the kind of cuts that are painful but needed in the long run. the kind of cuts that get you kicked out of office but save the country. when that happens, they can jack up my taxes all they want if it will help this country.
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Originally Posted by nynco
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Originally Posted by nynco
biggest profits in history will always happen...why? because the dollar doesn't buy as much as it used to in your precious 60's you talk about. Inflation going through the roof doesn't help either. You are stuck inside your own box, suffocating on your own flatulents because your head is up your ass.
then in your last paragraph you say to lower taxes and tax imports. but yet a page ago you were all for raising taxes on the rich and businesses...so what is it? did we get through to you or are you just retarded still and I proved it yet again?
I believe he was talking about taxes on the rich vs. taxes on corporations. There are some serious loopholes in taxation. Hedge funds generally charge 2% of the total and 20% of profits. They have more freedom than regular mutual funds since they can do shorts and anything they damn well want. These are unregulated with virtually no reporting. They pay a 15% tax rate vs. the usual 35% rate for investments. They have grown to be a huge part of the market and the managers, some of whom take in billions, pay lower taxes than most of us. Such crap is a major argument for flat taxes. For fun read about John Paulson and ABACUS.Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper7
It is also fun to talk about those evil Democrats who want to take our money but they include people like Chuck Schumer, "The Senator for Wall Street". We all know of him for his anti-gun rhetoric but he has never seen a deregulation or tax break for the wealthy he didn't like.
Sniper7, perhaps you should study logical fallacies. Excessive use of ad hominem tends to be used to mask the poverty of the arguments someone is advancing. It might be fun but shows lack of mastery of the subject.
Steve
I think you read what you want to read. I have been consistent. I said that we need to tax all income the same. This will raise taxes on some people who have the system rigged so they don't pay. People who make billions on long term cap gains and those worthless trust fund babies from boulder will now have to pay taxes like everyone else. This will raise their rates. But I think this will generate so much revenue that we could lower taxes (only after we pay off our debt).
I also said that we need to end all corporate breaks. Only ones that should exist are for national interest reasons. Now we have billion dollar companies like GE who pay NO taxes while middle class small businessmen do. Its market manipulation and the mega companies buy our gov to get those breaks while small companies can't afford to.
There is no way we can cut our way out of this mess alone. We need to fix the rigged tax structure.
As to taxing imports.... hell yeah. The more we tax foreign companies, the lower we can put the tax rate for all business in America. For the first 100 years of this nation import tariffs paid for 90% of all gov. I rather like the idea of sticking it to other countries to pay for our gov. Sounds grand...
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Originally Posted by CrufflerSteve
maybe you should also think that just because someone does well with money, makes a lot of money or works hard for a lot of money doesn't mean they should get the living shit taxed out of them to benefit the social programs that lazy people rely on to make sure they don't have work for shit in their life. I am not saying these people have wonderful lives that are fulfilling, as I see it every week where I fly to, but what they are given for nothing is above and beyond what anyone should receive for doing not a damn thing.
The people who fought and died for this country didn't do so because they wanted to see the placed taxed to living shit again.
For those talking about taxing the "rich". Obama pretty well defines that as 200K a year and 250K as a couple. maybe that seems like a lot to most people now, but back in nynco's held so dearly 60's a million bucks also seemed like a lot of money, isn't as true today. in 20 years those tax laws will probably be in effect in one way shape or form.
As to your loopholes, please tell me you have paid YOUR taxes on everything you have sold face to face requiring paying such taxes, that you have paid taxes on the internet purchases you have made after colorado passed that law last year:
http://www.amnavigator.com/blog/2010...d-by-governor/
Just because you don't make the money that other people make doesn't mean they should get the shit taxed out of them. That isn't a logical fallacy, that is words from a guy who doesn't want to get the shit taxed out of him to pay for others laziness and lack of trying or some libtards wet dream about saving the planet or making the world safe for everyone or making sure everyone has a great comfortable life.
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer
a step in the right direction, but needs to be accompanied by massive cuts in spending to work.
you are living in dream land. Everyone who makes money figures out a way to hide it from being taxed or being tracked in one way or another whether it is the drug dealers or the investment bankers with offshore bank accounts.Quote:
Originally Posted by nynco
You keep talking about raising taxes to pay off debt...never has the debt been paid off yet it has been proven time and again in this thread that raising taxes does anything but give the politicians more money to blow. Until there is hard rules and possibly a constitutional amendment as to how much of the .gov income must be used to pay off the debt, how much is to be set aside into "savings" once the debt is paid off and strict limits on when that savings can be touched (such as times of recession or war) then raising taxes is out of the window. It has been tried time and time again, in this country and others and continues to fail. look of the definition of insanity, it applies perfectly.
As I said you read what you want to read. Its like you create strawman arguments and dance a victory dance when you take it down.
As to why you think its wrong to tax rich people the same as the middle class, I am at a loss. It makes absolutely no sense. I think you fall back on misunderstood ideology rather than common sense. But really I think it is just - you're stubborn.
Here's a way to reform them and every other program liberals have started/taken over: Make them optional. If unions are so great, people will want to join. If they're not as great as some would have us to believe, they will fall apart once optional.Quote:
Originally Posted by nynco
Same with things like social security. I for one would give up all my SS contributions if I could invest in my own retirement, and I'm sure a lot of other people would too. But it is mandatory, so I have to participate. If it's such a good program, why is it mandatory? If it was that good, enough people would want to participate to keep the program going. SS is such a joke... an unconstitutional joke.
To quote Andrew Wilkow: "Liberalism: Ideas so good they have to be mandatory."
Also, can anyone define a few terms for me?
-Rich
-Middle Class
-Tax Loopholes
Flat tax or fair tax, either one sounds about a million times better than our current tax code. If the treasury secratary can't do his taxes right, what makes you think I can? If we had a flat tax of 10%, where EVERYONE paid the same percentage regardless of income, it would save a lot of time and money. I could put 10% of my paycheck in a savings account every month, know EXACTLY how much I owe, earn interest in the meantime, and send a check to the gubment in April. No witholdings, no complicated forms, no excuses. The form could look like this:
How much did you make: _________
x .10
Total owed in taxes: _________
Make checks payable to Uncle Sam. Thank you for your patriotism.
I also belive you should have to pay taxes to be able to vote. And since everyone should be able to vote, everyone should pay taxes. No more people voting to spend other people's money. Everyone needs skin in the game.
As for the cut spending or raise revenue, as others have already stated, we have a spending problem not a revenue problem. Get rid of unconstitutional departments. Education, EPA, welfare, agriculture, etc. If you think they're so awesome, pass an amendment giving the federal government the power. Next, cut the budget. The budget can be cut everywhere, defense included. Anybody who has ever been in the military can identify a hundred places where the defense budget could be cut without taking away pay for troops or their benifits.
Bottom line, if we actually stuck to the constitution, we wouldn't be in this mess.
Where are you getting this nonsense? The rich pay more proportionally, as you said. But why do you think taxing them more is a good idea?Quote:
Originally Posted by nynco
You never answered my post about the flat tax across the board, Which includes taxing the lower 50% which does not pay taxes currently.
As I pointed out, you could tax every person in the US 100% and there is still a deficit (and not even a dent in the debt) to the amount of spending this administration is continuing, and this administration insisted on a debt limit increase for purely political reasons.
Now back to the real world. Since we spend more than we take in and could ever possibly tax, even at 100% tax rate, what logical solutions do you have? You don't, because there are not any.
The only solution is CAP the current spending, cut useless programs and trim down outrageous entitlements, Gut the government and their over-reaching claws, reduce taxes, yes even for those evil corporate entities.
You keep referring to increased "revenue" that means tax increase on producers. You simply cannot "stimulate" the economy by taking even more money out of the private sector and putting it into the govt. Your thinking is absurd and has been proven to be a failure.
The Dim- controlled senate tables every bill that would actually do something. Cut, Cap and Balance would have been a strong first step. But they would never approve something holding themselves accountable.
See how far the Mack Penny Plan gets in the Congress.
As I said, you guys read what you want to read. Then assign me your strawman to take down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drilldov2.0
Actually no the really rich people pay less of an effective tax rate than the middle class. Look up the term "effective tax rate". Read away for proof of how they get taxed less than you...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/mon...cle1996735.eceQuote:
Warren Buffett, the third-richest man in the world, has criticised the US tax system for allowing him to pay a lower rate than his secretary and his cleaner.
I don't care if the rich pay a larger percentage of the total revenue. They make WAY more. If we taxed them at a flat rate as everyone else, they would pay even more than they do now. Why? Because they get paid insanely more than the middle class.
I think the "Fair tax" is insane and unfair. I think a national sales tax is wrong. What I advocate for is a FLAT TAX on ALL forms of income... I would rather a progressive tax, but I would take a flat tax over the regressive taxes we have today. Also, no cap on Soc Sec 2% across the board on all income forms and I am sure there would still be a surplus. No taxbreaks to game the system. All poor and rich pay the same.
So basically what you are saying, and have said; is that you think if you work harder and earn more you should have to pay more in taxes? Well as I and many have shown, the most successful have already paid more in taxes.Quote:
Originally Posted by nynco
You like to talk about taxes. The real issue is spending vs. income. Raising taxes will do nothing but put more money into the inept hands in Washington. So what do you propose to do about cutting the current debt and deficit spending, what exactly should be cut in your mind? Raising taxes does nothing, effectively. So what should be cut?
And don't give me your oft-repeated, lame line of "you guys read what you want to read" bullshit. I am dealing in facts and numbers, so propose to me, wait all of us, your plan beyond higher taxes that actually makes economic, not theoretical sense. Raising taxes now furthers the decline of our economy. Govt. taking "revenue" out of the private sector reduces jobs and hampers the economy.
Well as I have said many times........ you guys read what you want or need to read. ^^^^^^^^^ this is a strawman argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drilldov2.0
I have said and I have repeated this many times. Flat tax on all forms of income. Since the uber rich have currently set up a system where they pay a lower taxrate on investment income than we pay from labor income, this will raise taxes on them. But this is not unfair to ask them to pay the same rate as everyone else. We should not have a system that punishes the middle class and lets the rich off from paying the same taxes as them. If you think that only taxing the middle class is good and that the "kings" should not pay.......... well you need to explain that logic to me. It makes no sense.
[sarcasm]What a great incentive to make people work and invest.[/sarcasm]Quote:
Originally Posted by nynco
That's probably one of the most idiotic things I've ever seen posted here.