But, this seems to me like a pretty one sided argument. Almost everyone posting has been in agreement on the major points.
If you’re interested I can play the "Devil's Advocate" in this debate.
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But, this seems to me like a pretty one sided argument. Almost everyone posting has been in agreement on the major points.
If you’re interested I can play the "Devil's Advocate" in this debate.
There fixed it for you! Always wanted to do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfuego
And if you'll notice this wasn't started to be a debate. IT was my take on the differences. No one had to agree with me but the responses that followed where made for some compeling reason. Disagree with my take. I could care less. So enlighten me please with your take........
I had to jump ahead on the posts to provide my 2 cents. If this has already been addressed in later posts, I apologize. I intend to go back and continue reading the posts until the end. I agree with Tristan on this.
The Ayn Rand quote is VERY flawed. Starting with the statement: "fundamental principles of the United States: in America, religion is a private matter which cannot and must not be brought into political issues."Quote:
Originally Posted by Pancho Villa
Our Founding Fathers plan was to keep government out of religion, not religion out of government. This is a pervasive misbelief and a total failure to understand what our Founding Fathers tried to establish. These individuals wanted to ensure every citizen was allowed to worship freely - following the religion of their choice, not the choice of the government. Just looking at almost every official document produced at that time should be example enough of this very fact; GOD is mentioned over and over.
In fact, religion, and a belief in God, is exactly what helped to establish this nation. I have copies of MANY documents from the time of the first ships crossing the Atlantic into the start of the 19th Century that support this. Because our Founding Fathers had such a strong belief in God and the tenants of their religions they saw fit to include this throughout our system of government. The posting of the 10 Commandments in government buildings, the use of "In God We Trust", the concept of "One Nation Under God"... these have followed us since our creation up until we started to get "enlightened" in the 20th Century.
Once upon a time, the majority of this nation had strong religious beliefs which provided us with a morality, or moral compass. This morality existed in our private lives, our work and businesses, and even our government. After our "enlightenment", we decided that we were too limited by these morals and that the intention of the Founding Fathers was to protect us from religion. This is when we started to lose our way.
We decided that we didnt need to be told what to do and what was right and wrong. We removed (and are continuing to remove) the symbols of religion from our government and places of work because they might offend someone. We twisted our Constitutional right of "Freedom of Religion" into "Freedom FROM Religion". We decided that the bible and religion preached HATE by telling us that certain actions and behaviors were wrong. We didn't like the rules that our morality imposed on us so we sought to eliminate these rules so we could do our own thing without the constraints of morality. We decided that we knew what was better for ourselves than some abstract religion did and that we needed the government to protect us from such rules - by imposing new rules. Those who chose to practice their religious faith publicly were told this isn't allowed. Public schools prevent children from praying (even those who pray silently are often counselled or disciplined) and they stopped saying the Pledge of Allegience because the term "under God" was deemed offensive. We were told that the government knew what was best for us. As such, we simply traded one "God" for another - a false God we call "government"!
Along the way, our moral compass lost it's bearing on true North and points to the individual direction of the compass holder. Each person has come to possess a varied understanding of what is right and what is wrong. All the while, our new government officials came to realize that there was a great opportunity to grow their power - and they ran with it. Under our new understanding of right and wrong we saw no problem with this - the more power the government had, the less power that religion could have over us and could be restrainted from telling us that what we were doing wasn't right.
Where once we sought freedom from religious persecution for questioning the beliefs of the religion that was forced on us (by The Church of England), now we face persecution by our new "religion" - government, when we question the rules they impose on us.
Our mandatory "tithe" to this new religion continues to grow. Our indivudual rights continue to diminish. The things that were once considered perverse and wrong are now accepted as simply another choice - not necessarily right, but certainly not wrong. Voicing opposition to those things is a failure to accept diversity and is considered HATE.
As I said before, we have simply traded one God for another. Enjoy your daily communion - it's now made of bitter herbs!
I call this the Microwave Syndrome. When microwaves first came out, everybody hailed them because they could cook so fast. Instead of 45 minutes - 2 hours to bake a potato, you could microwave it in 8 minutes. Nowdays, we tend to feel that those 8 minutes are just too damned long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan
Back in '99 I was arrested (and eventually convicted) of 2 misdemeanor counts of child abuse. What did I do that was so heinous? I spanked my children on their clothed buttocks with an open hand. I was turned in by my wifes best friend - at the time she was a paralegal for the DA's office. Because of this, I was nearly courts-martialed. I was a week away from a courts-martial when I got a new commander that put a stop to it. The charges went back to the civilian courts and I was convicted. By abiding by the terms of the civilian conviction, the charges are now officially "dismissed". Last I had heard, I was to be placed on the Colorado list of Cild Abusers FOR LIFE. So I can never be a teacher or a child care provider - so what?! The DHS rep I spoke with had informed me that she was going to make it her mission to keep me from EVER seeing my kids again. She tried, she failed. What I did was probably wrong in that I was angry when I spanked them but I never realized an open-handed spanking on a clothed bottom would be considered illegal. I'm sure that it can go without saying that I have not since laid a hand on either of my children.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan
Politics, perhaps no, but (sadly) I believe that it will, someday, be totally separated from our government.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan
Damn The Ginsue stricks again! Man you deep!
Um, sorry about that - the conversation hit a nerve.
So is your wife still best friend w/ that woman?
So do you think that a communist system would work better if it were a strongly religious system as well? Seems like it would.
Yes, but they aren't as close as they used to be. In fact, because of this situation, my wife and I had separated for a few months but finally resolved our issues and got back together - stronger than before. This woman left the DA's office to work for a childrens advocacy group. She hasn't worked there for a few years now but goes to church practically daily. What's ironic is that the biggest reason that my wife has been distancing herself from this woman is that she is borderline abusive, but certainly hateful to her adopted daughter. I call this poor girl "cinderella" because of the way she is treated. This woman is the wife of MY best friend which makes for a difficult situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by MB888
It probably would, but it would still be a Communist system which can not compare to the Republic that out nation is SUPPOSED to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtle
Ouch! Gosh someone ever done that to me, he/she would regret it for the rest of his/her life... nothing physical.. just from all the loopholes I know in this country's banking,credit, tax system.. dnt get me going on this stuff!