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  1. #21
    Grand Master Know It All hobowh's Avatar
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    I don't know where the line was drawn, but this has been building for years. When I was a kid we had to work for the things we wanted. Now all the kids have the latest toys they have the fancy clothes. They get an allowance because they are breathing, not because they did their chores. It's not just the political lines its the parents that are causing this it the parents starting them off yung and giving them everything they ask for we are breeding a caudled mass, not an informed society. I maried into three kids, and I am trying to change the mentality in my house now thats a fight. I wonder if this started when they took dodgeball out of schools, and said spanking was wrong...

    I know I can't spell, what can I say public education worked for me.
    The Hobo

  2. #22
    I Suck at Math
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    Okay-here's the link;
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...com&pr=goog-sl
    p.s.- I voted for Baldwin.

  3. #23
    Took Advantage of Lifes Mulligan Pancho Villa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
    Damn, Poncho......
    I agree with most of what you said as far as opinion and 100% as far as fact-but the truth in my earlier statement is also fact-the removal of God from this country is when it fell on it's face. I'm no preacher or Bible thumper-just pointing the obvious.
    Since you brought up schools, you also must know the first school bill signed by congress and the President was what?

    No, Troll, it's not the cartoon-much, much better than that. I'll see if I can find the link after I get done blabbing.

    I'm 100% republican-the way a republican is supposed to be-based upon our founding fathers-which I think most here are the same. Today's definition of a republican is trash, IMHO.
    Yup, Poncho-your last line says it all. But, and not being a fatalist, I figure it's already too late. for that.
    Hey, Tristan,

    Here's a fun fact for you: the time of the Founders and just after was a time of tremendous religious downplay. Many priests, pastors, etc., lamented at the complete lack of interest men had, day to day, in religion and God. I would go as far to say that in many areas (especially the most advanced, prosperous colonies) religious attendance and, even moreso, spirituality was less than it was today. One famous pastor at the time wrote in a letter to a friend that "mankind is in danger of being laughed out of religion," this less than a couple decades after the founding of this great country.

    Religious conservatives try to blame everything on a lack of religion; but the fact is that religion is not what made this country great, not what kept it great and it will not be what makes this country great again.

    Here's a quote from Rand, that I thought you and any other conservative might find of interest, as an outside perspective of the three major categories of conservative argument for freedom:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ayn Rand, in [i]Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal[/i]
    There are three interrelated arguments used by today’s “conservatives” to justify capitalism, which can best be designated as: the argument from faith—the argument from tradition—the argument from depravity.


    Sensing their need of a moral base, many “conservatives” decided to choose religion as their moral justification; they claim that America and capitalism are based on faith in God. Politically, such a claim contradicts the fundamental principles of the United States: in America, religion is a private matter which cannot and must not be brought into political issues.


    Intellectually, to rest one’s case on faith means to concede that reason is on the side of one’s enemies—that one has no rational arguments to offer. The “conservatives’” claim that their case rests on faith, means that there are no rational arguments to support the American system, no rational justification for freedom, justice, property, individual rights, that these rest on a mystic revelation and can be accepted only on faith—that in reason and logic the enemy is right, but men must hold faith as superior to reason.


    Consider the implications of that theory. While the communists claim that they are the representatives of reason and science, the “conservatives” concede it and retreat into the realm of mysticism, of faith, of the supernatural, into another world, surrendering this world to communism. It is the kind of victory that the communists’ irrational ideology could never have won on its own merits . . . .


    Now consider the second argument: the attempt to justify capitalism on the ground of tradition. Certain groups are trying to switch the word “conservative” into the exact opposite of its modern American usage, to switch it back to its nineteenth-century meaning, and to put this over on the public. These groups declare that to be a “conservative” means to uphold the status quo, the given, the established, regardless of what it might be, regardless of whether it is good or bad, right or wrong, defensible or indefensible. They declare that we must defend the American political system not because it is right, but because our ancestors chose it, not because it is good, but because it is old . . . .


    The argument that we must respect “tradition” as such, respect it merely because it is a “tradition,” means that we must accept the values other men have chosen, merely because other men have chosen them—with the necessary implication of: who are we to change them? The affront to a man’s self-esteem, in such an argument, and the profound contempt for man’s nature are obvious.


    This leads us to the third—and the worst—argument, used by some “conservatives”: the attempt to defend capitalism on the ground of man’s depravity.


    This argument runs as follows: since men are weak, fallible, non-omniscient and innately depraved, no man may be entrusted with the responsibility of being a dictator and of ruling everybody else; therefore, a free society is the proper way of life for imperfect creatures. Please grasp fully the implications of this argument: since men are depraved, they are not good enough for a dictatorship; freedom is all that they deserve; if they were perfect, they would be worthy of a totalitarian state.


    Dictatorship—this theory asserts—believe it or not, is the result of faith in man and in man’s goodness; if people believed that man is depraved by nature, they would not entrust a dictator with power. This means that a belief in human depravity protects human freedom—that it is wrong to enslave the depraved, but would be right to enslave the virtuous. And more: dictatorships—this theory declares—and all the other disasters of the modern world are man’s punishment for the sin of relying on his intellect and of attempting to improve his life on earth by seeking to devise a perfect political system and to establish a rational society. This means that humility, passivity, lethargic resignation and a belief in Original Sin are the bulwarks of capitalism. One could not go farther than this in historical, political, and psychological ignorance or subversion. This is truly the voice of the Dark Ages rising again—in the midst of our industrial civilization.


    The cynical, man-hating advocates of this theory sneer at all ideals, scoff at all human aspirations and deride all attempts to improve men’s existence. “You can’t change human nature,” is their stock answer to the socialists. Thus they concede that socialism is the ideal, but human nature is unworthy of it; after which, they invite men to crusade for capitalism—a crusade one would have to start by spitting in one’s own face. Who will fight and die to defend his status as a miserable sinner? If, as a result of such theories, people become contemptuous of “conservatism,” do not wonder and do not ascribe it to the cleverness of the socialists.

  4. #24
    I Suck at Math
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    I liked Ayn Rand when I was younger. Incredible author.
    Naw, though, I'd totally disagree with you on the God thing. Just because a few penned bad things doesn't mean it was the majority-and religion had a different meaning than it did now. And the tenants and doctrines were a lot stricter than they are today. So if the few that wrote such were around today, they would be in utter shock of what has happened.
    There are many, many mentions of God-more of God than Politics itself-in everything from the federalist papers to memoirs to newspaper articles back in the day. Just like Ben Franklin said, although he was not a highly religious man-our country is based on a religious morals and law. It will not work without either.
    Regardless, most religions teach morality-and that is what we need in this country, be it religion or, just as hobowh said-PARENTING.
    Parenting (or the lack thereof) is the key. If all parents teach their children simple respect and honesty, well, it would be a different place. But humans, as a species, is a very sick lot anyways.
    Dillon Klebold and Eric Harris are prime examples of failed parenting.
    He-he. Gun free zone my ass.
    Anyways, I saw a film once many, many moons ago that stated our society of entitlement started with frozen peas-since then everybody expects everything NOW. I really get a kick out of the idiots calling 911 on McDonald's.
    Yup. I'm glad and proud my dad took me behind the barn a few times. Saved my ass more than once. I've never had to raise a hand to my children-ever. Maybe because they know I would. And still will. I remember 8 years ago when the neighbor girl told her step mom "go ahead and hit me bitch! I'll call the cops on you and then you'll go to jail and me and dad can finally live in peace". Dad was a puss and never disciplined her for anything.
    I'll never forget that, either.
    Oops-forgot to reply to Ayns' statements.
    What she says is pretty ridiculous for anybody that knows their history.
    The first school bill was to open school everyday with a prayer. Congress and the senate always opened with a prayer. Politics are religion are interwoven as they can possibly be. Our founding fathers meant it that way and meant to keep it that way. She's way out there sometimes as we all know anyways.
    There are still many, many laws on the books today concerning God IN the government. It has nothing to do with the faith, per se. More with what I mentioned earlier-the morals.
    True religion, be it personal or public, can and never will be separate from politics anyways. Religion is not God-it's what you believe and what you do.

  5. #25
    Gong Shooter jim02's Avatar
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    Dont pin me down with a label, I have found no label that fits me other then an American who has pledged to defend the Constitution and believes in individual freedom and responsibility.

    Pancho,
    "Conservatives lack intellectuals" as in people that think and dicover new ideas? I think you actual mean conservatives lack "enlightened thinkers."
    Like Al Gore, who cares so much for us all and is saving our planet before we all cook to death.
    "Duty to others", like commies who take from me and give it to that person who pisses all there money away on shit, just because I went without and saved OR LIKE Treat others as you wish to be treated?

    I am just trying to understand where you stand. I dont want to cast insults.

  6. #26
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    Hey Tristan that is the video I was referencing. Just a different/edited version than what I saw. Seems like the one I saw starts at the explanation of governments. I shouldn't have said cartoon. I meant pictures and funny animation on top of them. That is a great video!

    So Pancho as a intellectual , and you may be with the info you can come up with and back up well with your own take.....you dodged my question directed at you...intelligently. I'll word it differently.

    1) Do you work for someone?
    2) Or do you work for yourself?
    3) If you work for someone, do you want to one day work for yourself?

    Please answer as plainly as possible. I have a headache and don't want to decipher your lengthy (but good) post. This isn't an attack on you by the way. I think you are in the right place IMO.

  7. #27
    Took Advantage of Lifes Mulligan Pancho Villa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim02 View Post
    Dont pin me down with a label, I have found no label that fits me other then an American who has pledged to defend the Constitution and believes in individual freedom and responsibility.

    Pancho,
    "Conservatives lack intellectuals" as in people that think and dicover new ideas? I think you actual mean conservatives lack "enlightened thinkers."
    Like Al Gore, who cares so much for us all and is saving our planet before we all cook to death.
    "Duty to others", like commies who take from me and give it to that person who pisses all there money away on shit, just because I went without and saved OR LIKE Treat others as you wish to be treated?

    I am just trying to understand where you stand. I dont want to cast insults.
    No, I mean "conservatives lack intellectuals." The defenses of conservatism, intellectually speaking, are laughably bad. It is that poor intellectual defense that makes dispicable people like Al Gore possible. When liberty has no champions in the intellectual sphere, cockroaches like him come in and take over.

    "Duty to others" as in putting forth as a moral ideal "need before greed."

    Let me put it as plainly as possible: I am a defender of individual rights and political liberty, which means: I am an enemy of democrats, and I reject as useless, tired and unprincipled "conservatism." There is nothing conservative about me - I am a radical for capitalism, which means, a radical for freedom.

    Guntroll: Back in Dallas I used to run an Evictions business (no doublespeak there, I evicted bum tenants from properties, legally.) Here I work as a shipping manager for a businessman - fell in love and wanted a job. But I hope to get back to being a business owner again. So I supposed I am an "aspiring capitalist." So #1 and #3.

  8. #28
    I Suck at Math
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    Damn- a BIG......SMART......MEXICAN.....we're all screwed now.....
    jk, Poncho. Thanks for the comments.
    Poncho is right. The present "republicans" are a joke-both intellectually and philosophically. And they, as well as they the dems, make a mockery of our system, which, by the way is still the best system on earth.
    Ya, Troll, it's a great movie. I really wished more people would watch it. I though you were referring to the cartoon made in the 50's about a snake oil salesman. I liked that one too.

    Sincerely,
    the gun-toting-long-haired-red-necked-fag-hating-country-loving-gunrack-in-my-pickup capitalist pig,
    Tristan
    I'm turning into more of an asshole everyday.

  9. #29
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    Wear the badge of asshole proudly!

  10. #30
    Don of the Asian Mafia ChunkyMonkey's Avatar
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    Dont you already have real one? what's the badge for?
    Quote Originally Posted by crays View Post
    It doesn't matter how many rifles you buy...they're still cheaper than one wife, in the long run.
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