Help me tear apart this frightening video.

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

HoneyBadger hit it perfectly... Have you ever been in a CQB training situation? Real world CQB? I've been in training and they mess you up bad if you sweep someone. What they don't show in those BUD/S videos is how many pushups and how many instructors are in your face if you sweep a teammate. Safety is serious shit. I wouldn't go out with the guys in the OP... ever. They just wanna look cool, and I'd rather look uncool and not get shot.

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You are making my point. I wasn't justifying sweeps - I am just saying they happen. In training (where you are supposed get your ass chewed) and in real life. It was in response to those saying that the sweeps, in of themselves, deny any legitmacy to the training - and that it doesnt happen with real world people. It does, from the 1C2Xs, 18Xs to the 11Bs and everyone in-between.

Again not justifying the video in any way. Just clarifying that if you are going to deny it then do it for the right reasons (and there are many).

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Originally Posted by akumadiavolo

I can't help it, I'm an ass man.

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You're an ASS! ...man

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Originally Posted by asmo

You are making my point. I wasn't justifying sweeps - I am just saying they happen. In training (where you are supposed get your ass chewed) and in real life. It was in response to those saying that the sweeps, in of themselves, deny any legitmacy to the training - and that it doesnt happen with real world people. It does, from the 1C2Xs, 18Xs to the 11Bs and everyone in-between.

Again not justifying the video in any way. Just clarifying that if you are going to deny it then do it for the right reasons (and there are many).

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Yes, they do happen, but they shouldn't. 3-Days of shoot house training (CQB), day 1, sweep, instructors break the violator down (dry run, no ammo). Day 2 and 3... ZERO sweeps. Amateurs train until they get it right. Professionals train until they get it wrong. Clearly the OP video showed a bunch of amateurs who need to train more, and should probably work without rounds the first few times until they don't sweep their partners. I should have clarified in my post that dry run is so you can ID the problem areas. I'd rather train and have an empty chamber sweep me and the guy learn the mistake so it's not made on a hot run.

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Originally Posted by asmo

Where is the hot chick?

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Erika dude. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=np9j77NHxlk

Forward to 1:13

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q11pqA420pI

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Originally Posted by SuperiorDG

Erika dude. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=np9j77NHxlk

Forward to 1:13

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q11pqA420pI

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The best is that I'm at work so I have to watch this without sound.

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Originally Posted by tmleadr03

Video's like these are why I don't like going shooting with people. I went out with one of Gabe and another guy from arfcom and the guy from arfcom had never met Gabe and I. Showed up with a bullet resistant vest on. I thought it was weird at the time, then I go watch these vids and think nope, under careful.

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Not all shooting events are like that. I have been out to the Northern Colorado IDPA shoots and they are very conscious about safety. 1 sweep and you are gone, even across yourself. I was cautioned for a possible sweep of my thumb during a re-holster (it was a crap neoprene holster used in a pinch causing the problem). The shit you would catch sweeping somebody else like that pic... don't wanna think about it. Running 5 or 6 scenarios at a time with only one person locked and loaded at a time, RO watching and walking with you, everybody giving constructive criticism on technique, safety, etc. They are not all like these vids or the FBI statistics would be much worse. Are you kidding me with being down range taking pics!!!!!! That place gives all of us a bad name.

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Originally Posted by Hound

Are you kidding me with being down range taking pics!!!!!! That place gives all of us a bad name.

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Yeah, that's full retard right there. If you ever watch the Magpul Dynamics videos, they always position a camera downrange and pretty much hope that it doesn't move, because no one is manning it if it's on the receiving end of the firing line.

WHY ARE YOU HATING ALL OF MY GROUP TRAINING?!
















































































Just Messin' that was stupid. Don't train with those idiots!

Man, I'd rather go train with Parker PD than those guys

;)

It's interesting to me to see some of the responses in this thread. I think there are at least a couple of points worth addressing.

You don't have to be a gunfighter to teach people safe gun handling and marksmanship.

Not flagging your buddy is basic weapons safety. If you can't reliably handle the basics, you have no business moving on to something more advanced.

CQB (definitely an advanced skill set) involves processing massive amounts of information while moving, target discriminating, using better than average marksmanship and applying the previously mentioned safe gun handling. And it's doing all of that faster than someone else who's trying to kill you. CQB is chess to the square range's checkers.

To properly instruct someone in an advanced skill like CQB, you need to be a subject matter expert (with the depth of experience that implies) and be able to deconstruct everything to its most basic components.

Generally that means that the instructor has received formal instruction in CQB operations at a MIL or LEO unit, trained for and conducted CQB operations and finally instructed students in CQB within the framework of a unit that has established and successful SOPs.

Watching videos or attending a one week class just don't cut it.

If the instructor at the CQB class you're looking at can't or won't supply credentials to support teaching advanced skills, go elsewhere.

If the instructor can't handle being questioned on a TTP, go elsewhere.

If the instructor can't adequately explain why he's teaching what he's teaching, go elsewhere.

We, here in Colorado, had two classes taught by former Tier 1 operators canceled in the last two months due to lack of interest. I know time, ammo and money are tight right now. Don't waste them training with people that are regurgitating whatever lessons they could cherry pick after hanging around true SMEs.

I'm strictly an end user here. I just hate to see bad information get passed to good folks who want to learn but don't know what they don't know.

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Originally Posted by Mick-Boy

His response .

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spot on. Don't seek out professional training from amateurs.

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Originally Posted by coloccw

spot on. Don't seek out professional training from amateurs.

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It is similar to getting a tax advice from a master plumber.
Maybe roter rooter will hire CPA or Tax Attorney to become their part time plumber.

http://youtu.be/m4SDFmyRsRE

Another one I recently saw a HUGE training muzzle sweep during live fire video. I have the feeling it's one of those, "don't get professional training from ameteurs thing".

You are 100% correct. My apologies. I was incorrect and misreferenced the company. I edited my original reply. Again, my apologies.

Damn, hot red head at the gun range? i require bikini pics!!!

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Originally Posted by SuperiorDG

Erika dude. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=np9j77NHxlk

Forward to 1:13

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q11pqA420pI

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Originally Posted by KellyTTE

[blah-blah]

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So you disagree... Care to rebut?

^--- Could make it the official : Training classes not to take, or people who should not be armed thread.

I think the problems in the original video have been pretty well covered. However, I believe the root of the problem is people teaching over their head. Of course we all want to be a subject matter expert, gun ninja. The thing is, as with every profession or interest those who are truly well versed in a subject know how much they have to learn and remain humble about their skills. How many championship winning coaches have you heard preach a million times about reinforcing the basics? There is a reason for that.

I have no idea what it feels like to be standing in a stack waiting to make entry on a room full of bad guys. But I imagine it feels a little better knowing that the guy behind you doesn't have his finger resting on the trigger and that if he trips he isn't going to accidently shoot you in the back.

We are in a precarious place right now in that there are a lot of people seeking weapons training, which is fantastic. However, these people are infants in the area of training and weapons manipulation and don't even know what questions to begin asking. They may know the four fundamental safety rules. Good, now why do we use those rules? What does keeping your weapon pointed in a safe direction mean when moving through a house with teammates in front of and behind you? We as the gun community need to be very careful of the advice and TTPs we pass along. The burden is especially heavy on instructors. These new shooters are going to take what they hear from you as law.

The unfortunate reality is that safety and training issues will eventually sort themselves out. However, it is going to be someone pulling a Sonny and killing a student, or the like. Situations like that just make it harder on the rest of this and give the anti-gunners one more reason to come after us.

All this is to say, to those of you teaching please be extraordinarily careful what you teach. Make sure you know the real life why to everything you are passing along. Know what it looks like when a student is outrunning his headlights.

To those of us seeking training, ask yourself, do I want to learn from someone who has read a lot about this, or someone who has done this for a living? I don't know about you guys, but in college I encountered a number of professors who had spent their careers in academia; those who had never left college. They had a great amount of knowledge, some of which was really useful. However, there were also those professors who actually worked in the subject they were teaching. Those were they guys who could pass along the real, actual, relevant information. They knew what worked, what didn't and why in real life, not just in the classroom. These are the guys I look to for weapons training. I want to learn from a guy who has carried a gun for a living, who had developed a skill set because his life depended on it. In my experience this is the one who can teach you what really works, not just what looks neat. Ok, rant off. I apologize, I had a little caffeine, and this is what happened.

So after enough crap, looks like they pulled the video, thanks for the liveleak rehost. I hadn't had a chance to show my head boss who is the one who'd need to see it.

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Originally Posted by Mick-Boy

It's interesting to me to see some of the responses in this thread. I think there are at least a couple of points worth addressing...

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Originally Posted by dan512

I think the problems in the original video have been pretty well covered. However, I believe the root of the problem is people teaching over their head. ..

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+1 on both of these.

Again, my point was, and still is; a preponderance of arm-chair rangers are commenting on this video with zero to little training on this subject matter. Those who are humble enough to know what they are talking about, or ready to learn of a subject matter and willing to rely on those who do, are clearly evident after I made my comment.

And please allow me to clarify, I give these guys a 1 out of 10 on my respect factor, because they are still conducting ignorant/stupid acts (ref: my brain bucket comment & Paul Blart; and why I must state that is beyond me). The way I see it; these gentlemen may very well "chlorinate the gene pool" as one gentleman on this forum had in his signature line.

Those who commented "fail" because they failed to understand my point, otherwise blow supposed facts/opinions out of their ass because they have watched a video, took a 1 day course , and/or feel the need to ridicule stupid people for doing stupid things on the internet = 0 respect. You are gaining nothing pretending to be something you are not, and please still feel free to pound sand...

finally found it...maybe you should show this to the crew...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=442_1369923808

What happened to the rehosted liveleak link? It now is like a reduced version w/ no comments and only 54 seconds of the still motion pics, no video.

When I click the link, it is only 53 seconds instead of the original 3 minutes or so, none of the action is there.

The ineptness got swept under the rug? Ho hum...

Damn it thought you rehosted this, not that is was one of theirs. I'd have captured a copy otherwise. Hadn't been able to show to head boss and the company firearms guy yet.

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Originally Posted by KellyTTE

http://item.liveleak.com/2/view?i=197_1369425684

Just in case.

Galaxy Note II + Tapatalk 2

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Right, but click and look at it. It's only 53 seconds with only the still images. As I've said in my previous 3 posts. The actual shooting is gone/edited out. (Supposed to be a 3min video.) Also noticed, the younger fit guy looks kinda like the one from Jensens to me?

"A trainwreck disguised as a "CQB" class. http://edge.liveleak.com/80281E/u/u/...video_icon.jpg


I think that's what its supposed to be anyhow. You never know"

That's what you call it Kelly? Kind of like a retard calling out another retard... While I agree you shouldn't be calling out someone on something you can't and haven't done yourself.

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Originally Posted by coloccw

"A trainwreck disguised as a "CQB" class. http://edge.liveleak.com/80281E/u/u/...video_icon.jpg


I think that's what its supposed to be anyhow. You never know"

That's what you call it Kelly? Kind of like a retard calling out another retard... While I agree you shouldn't be calling out someone on something you can't and haven't done yourself.

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Ray Charles could call the class shown in that video a train wreck with ease. Having done or not done something doesnt matter there.

When it comes to Kelly's classes; I audited his last NC class and didnt see issues with the material being taught or anyone straying out of their lane.

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Originally Posted by NCPatrolAR

Ray Charles could call the class shown in that video a train wreck with ease. Having done or not done something doesnt matter there.

When it comes to Kelly's classes; I audited his last NC class and didnt see issues with the material being taught or anyone straying out of their lane.

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Nevermind to the train wreck statement (again, I AGREE); your qualifications on CQB, or other qualifications, are what?

Anyway; who the fuck "audits" training? I'm getting older by the day, but I refuse to believe CQB or any other training is called "audited". I reserve that term for tax returns, SoX, etc...

Apparently you need to look up the alternative definitions for "audited":

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Audited:

2. To attend (a course) without requesting or receiving academic credit.

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People "audit" all sorts of courses...most commonly college classes, regardless of what you "refuse to believe".

[Pop][Coffee]

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Originally Posted by <MADDOG>

your qualifications on CQB, or other qualifications, are what?

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Started working CQB while on active duty (2 tours with the 82nd, 1 with 1ID). Been serving high risk search warrants in the law enforcement arena since 2003 and currently have several hundred actual warrant services. Also tasked with doing continuing education for the crew I do warrant services with, teaching building searches to police recruits, teaching active shooter response to in-service dept members, etc etc. I try to catch CQB classes whenever possible in order to see/try new TTPS and have done CQB courses with Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, and various police groups. Need other qualifications?

If we want to talk about pure firearms training; I've logged classes with Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, Scott Reitz, Paul Howe, Pat Rogers, Kyle Defoor, Jason Falla, so on and so forth.

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Anyway; who the fuck "audits" training? I'm getting older by the day, but I refuse to believe CQB or any other training is called "audited". I reserve that term for tax returns, SoX, etc...

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Auditing in the sense of having a free slot in the class for the purpose of reviewing the material. Typically certificates/prizes for competitions within the class arent awarded when one audits the class.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NCPatrolAR

Started working CQB while on active duty (2 tours with the 82nd, 1 with 1ID). Been serving high risk search warrants in the law enforcement arena since 2003 and currently have several hundred actual warrant services. Also tasked with doing continuing education for the crew I do warrant services with, teaching building searches to police recruits, teaching active shooter response to in-service dept members, etc etc. I try to catch CQB classes whenever possible in order to see/try new TTPS and have done CQB courses with Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, and various police groups. Need other qualifications?

If we want to talk about pure firearms training; I've logged classes with Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, Scott Reitz, Paul Howe, Pat Rogers, Kyle Defoor, Jason Falla, so on and so forth.




Auditing in the sense of having a free slot in the class for the purpose of reviewing the material. Typically certificates/prizes for competitions within the class arent awarded when one audits the class.

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NCPatrolAR is off to an exciting start. I too have taken one of Kelley's classes and he covered the most important thing I look for in a class, SAFETY. As long as that is covered, learning can take place at all levels. In the OP video, only bad things can happen.

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Originally Posted by SuperiorDG

In the OP video, only bad things can happen.

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Yeah, but if someone gets killed because of poor safety habits or bad tactics at least they died doing something they loved. Thus the rest of us mere mortals shouldn't criticize the video. [/sarcasm]

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Originally Posted by SuperiorDG

NCPatrolAR is off to an exciting start. I too have taken one of Kelley's classes and he covered the most important thing I look for in a class, SAFETY. As long as that is covered, learning can take place at all levels. In the OP video, only bad things can happen.

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Ditto. I for one am glad to have NCPatrolAR among our ranks and look forward to more of his contributions.

Also, I took the same class as SuperiorDG (a 2-day tactical rifle course) and found his scrutiny on safety was superb. Vocal commands were repeated back from the students, known actions for those commands were established hour-one of day-one, muzzle control, trigger finger control, gun-handling on the line, etc were all clearly upheld by all. If safety is anyone's beef with KellyTTE, they're barking up the wrong tree. As for his real life level of experience, I cannot comment because I do not know, but he was a fine instructor nonetheless, and I came out of the class with increased confidence and recognition of things I needed to work on... so in my mind mission accomplished.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NCPatrolAR

When it comes to Kelly's classes; I audited his last NC class and didnt see issues with the material being taught or anyone straying out of their lane.

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A man charging folks money to teach something he's never done seems like the very definition of someone being out of their lane.

Like I said in my post above; You don't need to be a gunfighter to teach marksmanship or safe weapons handling... but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about someone who is charging people to provide professional instruction on a subject he's never done professionally.

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Originally Posted by Mick-Boy

A man charging folks money to teach something he's never done seems like the very definition of someone being out of their lane.

Like I said in my post above; You don't need to be a gunfighter to teach marksmanship or safe weapons handling... but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about someone who is charging people to provide professional instruction on a subject he's never done professionally.

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Everyone is entitled to their opinion. From what I saw, Kelly's material comes straight from Paul Howe and didn't contain any kind of freelance material. It's really no different than people at Benning teaching CQB to basic trainees when the instructors themselves had 0 real world application of the material being taught. A person with practical application time can provide insights that the other instructor can't but that doesn't mean he can't teach you the core material (slicing the pie, entry methods for corner/center-fed rooms, PODs, etc).

I'm not commenting on your materials Kelly. I'm commenting on the fact that you have no background to be teaching CQB. Period. You can name drop all you like (I've taken classes from MSG Howe too...). The fact that you're trying to charge people to come learn CQB from you strikes me as dishonest at best, flat dangerous at worst.

Obfuscate all you like. Drag up lightfighter, who I choose to train with, the advice your OIC(?) gave you. Whatever. At the end of the day none of that changes the fact that your resume is too shallow to be teaching people gunfighting. You've never done it. You've never been in an organization that does it when it was going on. You've taken some classes from men who actually put it on the line and you've taught AFA Cadets who play gun-games. You should take a hard look at yourself Kelly. Your priorities are skewed.

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Originally Posted by NCPatrolAR

Started working CQB while on active duty (2 tours with the 82nd, 1 with 1ID). Been serving high risk search warrants in the law enforcement arena since 2003 and currently have several hundred actual warrant services. Also tasked with doing continuing education for the crew I do warrant services with, teaching building searches to police recruits, teaching active shooter response to in-service dept members, etc etc. I try to catch CQB classes whenever possible in order to see/try new TTPS and have done CQB courses with Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, and various police groups. Need other qualifications?

If we want to talk about pure firearms training; I've logged classes with Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, Scott Reitz, Paul Howe, Pat Rogers, Kyle Defoor, Jason Falla, so on and so forth.

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I just have to say this- This resume pretty much puts you in the same area as the former SF 18B who taught our CQB/MOUT class I took... granted it was for PSD, not infantry tactics (two very different sets of tactics), but yeah, anyone who has done that much pretty much knows their stuff. If you vouch for Kelly, then I'll have to say "Where do I sign up for one of his classes?" [Beer]

ETA: My question for Mick- I've done CQB training, I've done breach training, I've done PSD training (to include driving, formations, and close protection), but never actually done the actual job.... Let's say I go out and take a bunch of CQB courses, and decide that I'm competent enough on the subject, and can preform adequately. But since I've never actually done it professionally in a real-life environment (training only, mind you) I'll never be qualified to teach it? Just clarify that for me please. Because by that logic, I've never been in a firefight, yet I have spent countless hours training people on the M4/M16 platform for combat scenarios, trained our unit officers on the M9 combat pistol course, and taught PSD operations, but since I have no real world applications I'm not qualified, right?

I'm not particularly educated on CQB tactics, beyond some basics. However, I'm in complete agreement with NCPatrolAR (welcome to the forum, btw - nice to have somebody with your level of experience on board to contribute!) in that real world experience can lend some nice insight, but shouldn't be an absolute pre-requisite to teach. Competency, proficiency, and common sense should be enough.