good point to bring up...what determines "danger to society"? and what levels of danger justify such actions?Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperiorDG
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good point to bring up...what determines "danger to society"? and what levels of danger justify such actions?Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperiorDG
My BS flag is raised.......
IF it was a GPS tracker... then why didn't they keep tracing it till there were a few less then 19 cars to go thru ? ( tho yes even stoping 3 cars they would have violated 2 innocents rights... I be less upset over that )
If it was an anonymous tip ..... how could that info been valid still by the time they got enough officers to the intersection to effect the stops? how long do you spend at a red light ? 1-2 mins TOPS? By the time the tip was called in , dispatched, and officers arrived . the bad guy would be long gone ( which he was). What they think the dude was just hanging out at the intersection?
APD needs a smack in the back of the head over this . And since you can;t actually smack them in the back of the head , it means they are gunna get sued. and they should be.
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Originally Posted by clublights
Looks like the only people pissed off so far are people that WEREN'T THERE... Which includes you... And 99% of the other people posting in this thread...
I love it... Keep going... :)
Maybe that's why we're so upset, because the people that were there aren't upset, but should be.Quote:
Originally Posted by JM Ver. 2.0
I'm not pissed off.Quote:
Originally Posted by JM Ver. 2.0
I 100% believe these folks rights were violated. I'm annoyed. I'm upset.... but pissed off ?? Nah
I wasn't in Nazi Germany in the 40's but I'm still upset over the "final solution"
WHY I do I have to be there and part of it to be bothered/upset/concerned/pissed off by it ?
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Originally Posted by Sharpienads
But they're not... And they're emotions are the only ones that really matter in this case...
The police caught a bank robber, no one was hurt, and everyone of you is bitching about it...
I bet you're the same people that bitch when someone gets away... Or you're the same ones that bitch when the police don't help you out.. Right away.. When you demand it.. Cuz you're important..
Let's just say... For shits and giggles... The Aurora Police didn't do what they did... Robber gets away... Car jacks a mother and her two children... Now he has hostages... They corner him... He freaks out... Kills all three of them...
Now you're all going to bitch because they didn't catch the guy at the intersection when they had a chance...
Here's a plan... All of you that are bitching about the way this was handled, and HAVE NOT BEEN ONE... Go be a cop for a day. Just ONE DAY. Then, if you're not too busy crying, come back and tell us how you feel. [ROFL1]
One Problem .....................Quote:
Originally Posted by JM Ver. 2.0
THEY DIDN'T CATCH HIM BECAUSE OF THESE STOPS.... he wasn't there.
Whats the old Franklin Quote?... Something about giving up rights for safety and security deserves neither.... how's that one go ?
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Originally Posted by clublights
Because you're more or less telling the people that were there how to feel. If they don't feel like anything was wrong, leave 'em alone.
I've actually been in a situation kind of like this. Yeah, it sucked, but the people they were looking for got caught. Could I have sued? Probably... Why didn't I? Because the 4 douche bags running drugs got caught and my night was "ruined" for a whole 20 minutes. Well worth it to see 4 felons hauled off to jail...
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Originally Posted by clublights
We didn't kill Osama with 100% of the air strikes we sent over to Iraq and the Stans... Or is that one different?
Oh, and, if you wanna play that... If the idiot that called in the tip would have been smarter, none of this would have happened... Why don't you blame him/her?
Oh that's right... Because it's not their fault... The police should just ignore all those tips... My bad.
So say stopping numerous cars at once becomes the standard for catching someone. I'm driving through an intersection when the popo thinks someone important is in the area and needs to detain and search everyone there. I WILL be pissed off. And I will be pissed off at every individual that thinks its prudent, correct, and within their rights to do so. Don't exercise your rights and you will lose them.
Hey guys, there's a drunk driver on I25 RIGHT NOW!
Everyone, stop, get out, and blow.
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Originally Posted by 00tec
Just out of sheer curiosity...
Say your car matches the discription of a vehicle used in a bank robbery...
This is the car:
[Driver]
Now let's say that you and 4 other people, one of which is the bank robber, are at a stop light... For whatever reason you all have the same car... This car.
[Driver]
Would you be upset if the police stopped all five of you?
I know this is totally different... But I'm just curious.
These tactics are now here to stay. Not sure how far they will go but the police have a precedent. Where does it end? A whole street, block, area of a city?
Not even close to the same thing... Nice try though. [ROFL1]Quote:
Originally Posted by 00tec
Did Aurora PD have a description of the car?Quote:
Originally Posted by JM Ver. 2.0
No.
Did Aurora PD have a description of the suspect?
No.
Did Aurora PD have a gender of the suspect?
No.
Did Aurora PD know if the suspect was white, black, brown, green or purple?
No.
Oh, but it is. I will bet cash someone would blow over .08, therefore catching the bad guy and saving a mom and kids.Quote:
Originally Posted by JM Ver. 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00tec
You missed the last part of my post, didn't you? Silly goose... [ROFL3]
I think most if not all of the people here have a great deal of respect for police officers. But that doesn't mean that they get a free pass when they do something wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by JM Ver. 2.0
No. It's not... It's not a felony. But again.. Nice try. [Coffee]Quote:
Originally Posted by 00tec
Fine. There is a felon with a gun on I25.Quote:
Originally Posted by JM Ver. 2.0
The point is, if you think the Aurora incident is OK, where is the line and when does it get crossed?
Combat operations against a known terrorist and non citizen are a bit different.Quote:
Originally Posted by JM Ver. 2.0
why should I blame the tipster? I'm sure there is a high probability that when they called in said tip that the bad guy was at the intersection. see my first post again.
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Originally Posted by Sharpienads
Sorry... You're right... "Crying like a bitch" would have been better... "ALL THOSE PEOPLE SHOULD SUE!!!!" That's bitching... My opinion. Or am I not entitled?
And really? FBI and Cops all over with guns... You think the dude is going to shoot everyone out there in cuffs? [ROFL1]
So much respect that the only things you see on here are about the bad things they do... And about how they should be fired... And about how they're all just a bunch of gang members...
You're right. All of you love cops.. [ROFL3]
I'm sure there's a good number that do have respect, but the ones that dont seem to out number those that do..
But hey, I'm just discussing. [Beer]
So along that line, and I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking your line of thinking, what if you saw on the news tonight, a blatant disregard for someones constitutional rights by a police agency, but they weren't all too upset when all was said and done... you shouldn't be upset, right? Ya know, because it wasn't you. [Bang]Quote:
Originally Posted by JM Ver. 2.0
I see instances like this and they get my blood temperature up, not to boiling point, not yet at least, but it makes me angry that this behavior is allowed. Again, sitting on a curb in handcuffs while the PD searches for a suspect who may still be in the area, is not a concern of safety, but a concern of right and wrong. While it may be in the neat little gray area, still makes it feel pretty wrong when I have done nothing to deserve this. The fact that I didn't personally experience this doesn't change the fact that something wrong happened to my fellow Americans (remember WE the people, not I the person) by those who are supposed to uphold the law and lead by example, and I am awake enough to realize this and be angry about it.
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Originally Posted by clublights
Because the tipster didn't know what he was talking about.
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Originally Posted by clublights
So you are capable of knowing folks emotions from reading plain text? Kudos to you....Quote:
Originally Posted by JM Ver. 2.0
So...because we were not there we have no reason to worry about our rights as citizens? An abuse of power and mistreatment of fellow citizens should be ignored by anyone who is not involved?Quote:
Originally Posted by JM Ver. 2.0
By your statements above I could surmise that you would be ok if Obama ordered a nuke strike in El Paso, TX, and because you were not involved or hurt in any way, you would be ok with it.
[ROFL1]
How has anyone in this thread directly told anyone involved how they should feel? Not one person in this thread has posted they were there, and I doubt anyone who has posted is in contact with anyone that was in order to tell them how to feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by JM Ver. 2.0
A violation of rights is worth it to catch 4 criminals? Now you are sayng it is ok to violate the rights of innocent people in order to catch the few bad ones...wow.
I understand you are getting a good laugh from the posts in this thread. What I find sad and laughable myself is your complete lack of understanding of what you are reading and your complete disregard of your own rights.
Whether or not the people that were stopped complain is irrelevant. This is about liberties being abridged and eroded.
THIS! [Beer]Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Nobody said you're not entitled to an opinion. Don't try to make it sound like you're being victimized.Quote:
Originally Posted by JM Ver. 2.0
And the fact that no one talks about the good things cops do on here is not true. The bad posts do outnumber the good posts, that is true. But police officers are not above reproach. And there's a difference between love and respect. Just because someone doesn't love or even like police officers doesn't equate to disrespect.
And I hope we all keep discussing. [Beer]
Like you already said.. totally different..Quote:
Originally Posted by JM Ver. 2.0
But I'll play
Nope I wouldn't be. The cops had more of a tip other then " in the area" and besides the odds of 5 of the same car being in the same place at the same time are astronomical .
Look the real point is that stopping everyone "in an area" at gun point is just over the top. and to add to it... the "tactic" didn't even work . .they caught the guy hours later somewhere else. they can;t even say "well we got our man so it's ok" instead they did all of they FOR NOTHING! ( well ok not true .. they proved he wasn't there)
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Originally Posted by Ronin13
You've got a good point... But at the same time, there's a saying about guns..
"I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it."
I understand 90% of you aren't going to like this, but hey, it's the truth.
I'd rather have the rights of 1 person violated to save the lives of 1,2,3,4,5,6 as many as you want to put there...
Is violating the rights of 19 people a little much, sure... I suppose... But, if one person were to have died because the police didn't act soon enough, then what's the bigger trade off?
I'll make this more noticable this time...
I UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT I'M ABOUT TO SAY IS 100% DIFFERENT THAN WHAT HAPPEND!
That being said...
Let's pretend you match the discription of a robbery suspect that just shot 9 people and was last seen shooting at 10 more in every aspect BUT you're not wearing a hat...
The police see you and order you to the ground at gunpoint...
Rights violated? Maybe...
But is it worth it to stop everyone that is even close to being the suspect? Fuck yeah it is.
Another...
Same robbery suspect runs into a building occupied by 10 people... They dont have a very good discription but they KNOW he's in the building...
Is it then ok to detain those 11 (remember, plus one robber) in order to find the robber or should you be allowed to just walk away because you can't be bothered with the murdering robber guy's capture?
The police used a tactic to catch a fleeing felon. They acted on a tip from a person that didn't want to be named... They did what they thought at the time was right... A choice was made in a matter of a seconds. Shit happens all the time. Is it always the right thing? No. Mistakes happen. But no one was hurt and the bad guy went to jail. That's the important thing.
Right's are RIGHTS. for a reason ....Quote:
Originally Posted by JM Ver. 2.0
What 19-20 of us have posted in this thread.. there a bouts right ?
well if taking all of our guns away saves just one life...
It's worth it .. right ?
Oh whats that ? it won't save a life?
Just like violating the rights of those folks ( more then 19 .. it was just 19 cars .. many had more then one person in them ) Didn't catch the bad guy.
To your first point....they had a description of the robbery victim in your example, they had no description of the robber or his verhicle in this case. Moot point.
To your second example....again you have a felon in a KNOWN location, no guessing, they know FOR SURE he is there. Again, in this case, they went off of an anonymous tip and had no idea if he was there at all, which he wasn't.
Yes, they did what they thought was right, but as it turns out sometimes, their choice is wrong. Police make mistakes, I have a lot in my family and they admit the same. They are human to!
I agree, no one was hurt. However, the fact they potentially put all of those people at risk, and violated certain rights, is still not right.
No justification will make a wrong "right". Wrong is simply "wrong".
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Originally Posted by Steps
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Originally Posted by Sharpienads
I just want you all to know... I still love all of you...Quote:
Originally Posted by clublights
[Beer][Love2]
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--Quote:
Originally Posted by JM Ver. 2.0 http://www.ar-15.co/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
Looks like the only people pissed off so far are people that WEREN'T THERE... Which includes you... And 99% of the other people posting in this thread...
I love it... Keep going... :)
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.
JM I was an LEO, so to answer your earlier challenge, This incident was in fact not handled correctly. The ends do not justify the means.
Problem 1. A vague geographical area does not probable cause make! Had they had a description of a suspect, a vehicle ect.. then that is PC for a stop of said vehicle. You must still have PC to go under exigent circumstances. Had they had a suspect description and information that he was hiding in a motorists vehicle, PC exists there as well. They had nothing but a vague geographical area. You must have reasonable suspicion, and that does not include everyone, not enough information in this case to clearly state PC for the actions taken.
Problem 2. If you have GPS on the subject why in gods green earth stop 19 cars at a busy intersection going one by one pulling folks out and putting them in harms way, had the suspect been inclined to come out guns blazing he surely would have done so knowing they were going to get to him eventually. Now you have put many innocent lives at risk unnecessarily.
Problem 3. Consent to search as pointed out earlier is not valid if obtained under duress, gun point certainly qualifies as under duress. If exigent circumstances exist no consent is necessary but again, not enough information for valid PC existed with only a vague geographical locale.
The idea that you must support fellow officers actions and follow orders regardless of whether or not they are justified or correct is wrong.
No... Because taking your guns would be a permanent(can't spell that word) loss of said right... These people lost it for 2 hours...Quote:
Originally Posted by clublights
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Originally Posted by Steps
Like I said... It had nothing to do with it. I knew that.
But, acting on a tip. They thought they knew where he was.
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Originally Posted by JM Ver. 2.0
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Originally Posted by stevelkinevil
I'm not supporting anyone... I never once said what they did was right... You've all assumed that though.
And, I think, given the situation anyone would have followed the order to stop all the cars. Just because of the speed at which it had to be done. But hey, I wasn't there... I donno.
Thanks for commenting though! All of your points are spot on. [Beer]
Damnit.. Forgot again.. Not a beer guy... [Pepsi]
I can't tell if you're just messing with us, or if you actually believe everything you're saying. If you do, well then I guess agree to disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by JM Ver. 2.0
Liberty and living in a free society has a price, and that price is not getting you inalienable rights trampled on when it's for the greater good. I would rather the robber get away than to have one person's rights violated by anybody. A lot of your arguments hinge on the assumption that the police are the only ones capable of defending the populace (i.e., "what if one person died because the police didn't act soon enough" or "what if the robber shot other people because the police didn't do this or that"). This isn't and should not be the case.
My rights are not negotiable, and yours shouldn't be either. The fact that those involved are not pissed (that I know of) is very discouraging.
I'm glad you expected my answer on Texas, Steps...
And yes... I did just compare a war to what happened in Aurora. Wanna fight about it?[ROFL1][ROFL2][ROFL3]