Pistol Recoil Management Through Stance?

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09-16-2013, 17:26
BuffCyclist

Pistol Recoil Management Through Stance?

I stumbled across "Range Time with Cory and Erika" on youtube this weekend, and found this video on recoil management / posture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0QUqhC6c_w

Has anyone tried shooting like this, or made the switch entirely? I've done some dry firing this way and it will definitely take some getting used to, but if other people have had good experiences with this I'd be willing to give it a try.

This isn't to say I can't control the recoil of my pistols, I'm simply looking to improve my shooting skills, tighten up my groups and be able to shoot faster more accurately at longer distances (30-40+ yds).

Because I know someone will ask, I currently shoot with what I would call modified isosceles, shoulders square to target, push forward with right hand and pull backwards with left hand and keeping elbows slightly bent, all while slightly leaning forward with my torso.

Alternatively, is what they're discussing in their videos bogus? As in, do they know what they're talking about or are they just making videos to get money from youtube?
09-16-2013, 17:41
Big Wall

Rolling your elbows up definately helps with recoil management. If definately takes some getting use to and practice to do it without thinking about it.
09-16-2013, 17:42
dan512

The proof is in the pudding. Put yourself on a timer and see what kind of split times you get trying their way and your way.
09-16-2013, 18:08
Wulf202

It's just isosceles it's been around for a while and it works.
09-16-2013, 18:13
cysoto

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuffCyclist

Has anyone tried shooting like this, or made the switch entirely?

Rollings your shoulders froward causes you to drop your head into your should sockets, creating unnecessary stress in your neck muscles.

Saul Kirsch does a much better job in this video explaining how the shooter's stance can be used to properly manage recoil (nonetheless, keep in mind that no amount of videos will take the place of proper instruction with a qualified instructor): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a9BGzkDsU
09-16-2013, 18:20
Irving

I was checking my stance. I think I turn my left elbow up. I have developed the habit of making a kind of cheek weld on my right shoulder. It probably does create extra stress on my neck, but I don't really shoot a pistol for long enough for it to effect me (that I can tell). Anyway, the reason I do the cheek weld, is because it helps me develop the muscle memory of drawing and pointing the same every time.
09-16-2013, 18:35
cysoto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irving

I was checking my stance. I think I turn my left elbow up. I have developed the habit of making a kind of cheek weld on my right shoulder. It probably does create extra stress on my neck, but I don't really shoot a pistol for long enough for it to effect me (that I can tell). Anyway, the reason I do the cheek weld, is because it helps me develop the muscle memory of drawing and pointing the same every time.

This may work while shooting from a static position but, whether you are practicing your shooting skills for dynamic action pistol competition or doing so for tactical applications, you will soon learn that this shooting position negatively impacts movement.
09-16-2013, 20:26
BuffCyclist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Wall

Rolling your elbows up definately helps with recoil management. If definately takes some getting use to and practice to do it without thinking about it.

Hmm, might be some merit to it after all. Guess its time for another trip the range to test it out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan512

The proof is in the pudding. Put yourself on a timer and see what kind of split times you get trying their way and your way.

No access to a timer, splits or even know what you're talking about [LOL]. Wanting to get into IPSC now that my knee is healing and with that comes more attention to stance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wulf202

It's just isosceles it's been around for a while and it works.

Not really, I'm talking about the turning the elbows out to mitigate the effects of muzzle flip and recoil on second shots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cysoto

Rollings your shoulders froward causes you to drop your head into your should sockets, creating unnecessary stress in your neck muscles.

Saul Kirsch does a much better job in this video explaining how the shooter's stance can be used to properly manage recoil (nonetheless, keep in mind that no amount of videos will take the place of proper instruction with a qualified instructor): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a9BGzkDsU

Thanks for the video, I'll have to watch that later and take notes too. Perhaps its just me though, but I can roll my elbows outwards without affecting my head or dropping my head into the shoulders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irving

I was checking my stance. I think I turn my left elbow up. I have developed the habit of making a kind of cheek weld on my right shoulder. It probably does create extra stress on my neck, but I don't really shoot a pistol for long enough for it to effect me (that I can tell). Anyway, the reason I do the cheek weld, is because it helps me develop the muscle memory of drawing and pointing the same every time.

Guess I could start out by rolling my left elbow more outwards, my right elbow is already turned outwards quite a bit. I could see how a cheek weld on the shoulder could benefit you for 50-100yd shots, but wouldn't want to rely on that as it does turn your head sideways and isn't fast for moving or defensive purposes.
09-16-2013, 22:55
rtr

These two clowns have as much credibility as anyone else on YouTube, if you want to improve your pistol shooting you might want to look to those who are using techniques that are proven. One place to prove techniques is in competition, here are a few pictures to get you started http://www.gunnuts.net/2013/07/08/ex...ooting-stance/
09-17-2013, 00:13
dan512

You said you want to shoot faster and more accurately. Accuracy is easy to measure, how close are your groups to the bullseye? Faster is where a timer comes in. Shot timers are around. Unfortunanty they cost more than they should (like $100). This is the only way I have found to test wether or not some new technique "works" for me. In this case you would shoot a string of shots (like six to ten) and look at your accuracy and total time. Are you faster and more accurate holding your elbows a certain way? Well then, that is the way to go. Hope that helps.
Also, as an aside, today at the range I discovered my big problem with controling recoil is not gripping the pistol hard enough. I have been shooting a lot of .22 and it turns out when using a real gun I am not holding it hard enough.
09-17-2013, 00:13
Irving

Quote:

Originally Posted by cysoto

This may work while shooting from a static position but, whether you are practicing your shooting skills for dynamic action pistol competition or doing so for tactical applications, you will soon learn that this shooting position negatively impacts movement.

This is definitely something that I do when I'm drawing at home, so very static indeed. Usually anything I practice at home.goes out the window during competitions. It is a very long time before I am able to successfully integrate new techniques.
09-17-2013, 07:48
Gravy Sandwich

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuffCyclist

I currently shoot with what I would call modified isosceles, shoulders square to target, push forward with right hand and pull backwards with left hand and keeping elbows slightly bent, all while slightly leaning forward with my torso.

Push/pull is a characteristic of the Weaver stance. Isosceles uses extended arms and your body weight to absorb recoil. Recoil is absorbed through the torso, not the arms. Ron Avery explains the difference in this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GewbIC2P8Hw
Cory is a better student than instructor. Here's Ron increasing his draw speed by almost a half a second by minimizing his sluggish press-out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMSlCyc-SQQ
09-17-2013, 08:58
275RLTW

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gravy Sandwich

Push/pull is a characteristic of the Weaver stance. Isosceles uses extended arms and your body weight to absorb recoil. Recoil is absorbed through the torso, not the arms. Ron Avery explains the difference in this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GewbIC2P8Hw
Cory is a better student than instructor. Here's Ron increasing his draw speed by almost a half a second by minimizing his sluggish press-out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMSlCyc-SQQ

^^This. Cory is an ass clown with no experience. Stop trying to learn from youtube.
09-17-2013, 10:03
tmleadr03

I just shoot from the hip. Well, kinda.

Here is one of my training videos.

http://themetapicture.com/media/funn...ooting-gun.gif
09-17-2013, 10:15
Buff

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmleadr03

I just shoot from the hip. Well, kinda.

Here is one of my training videos.

http://themetapicture.com/media/funn...ooting-gun.gif

[ROFL2]
09-17-2013, 16:13
BuffCyclist

Quote:

Originally Posted by rtr

These two clowns have as much credibility as anyone else on YouTube, if you want to improve your pistol shooting you might want to look to those who are using techniques that are proven. One place to prove techniques is in competition, here are a few pictures to get you started http://www.gunnuts.net/2013/07/08/ex...ooting-stance/

Thats kind of what I was wanting to hear. Are they actually teaching valid points or is it bogus? I've watched a lot of IPSC/USPSA videos and have noticed how they shoot. I saw the video I originally posted and thought it could have some valid points, so I wanted to ask around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan512

You said you want to shoot faster and more accurately. Accuracy is easy to measure, how close are your groups to the bullseye? Faster is where a timer comes in. Shot timers are around. Unfortunanty they cost more than they should (like $100). This is the only way I have found to test wether or not some new technique "works" for me. In this case you would shoot a string of shots (like six to ten) and look at your accuracy and total time. Are you faster and more accurate holding your elbows a certain way? Well then, that is the way to go. Hope that helps.
Also, as an aside, today at the range I discovered my big problem with controling recoil is not gripping the pistol hard enough. I have been shooting a lot of .22 and it turns out when using a real gun I am not holding it hard enough.

What I meant was, I want to shoot faster accurately. I would say I'm a pretty decent shot, but most of the time I only shoot at a rate of about once per second. When working on SD skills, I do shoot faster than that but then, my accuracy is defined as on the silhouette target or a miss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gravy Sandwich

Push/pull is a characteristic of the Weaver stance. Isosceles uses extended arms and your body weight to absorb recoil. Recoil is absorbed through the torso, not the arms. Ron Avery explains the difference in this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GewbIC2P8Hw
Cory is a better student than instructor. Here's Ron increasing his draw speed by almost a half a second by minimizing his sluggish press-out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMSlCyc-SQQ

Couldn't rmember where I got that push/pull aspect, but twisting my body like a weaver is not comfortable for me, so I square my shoulders. Recoil travels through the arms to get to the shoulders/torso, so what they're talking about in the video kind of makes sense. If you replace your arms with shocks/springs, you will feel less of a sharp impact in your torso, so the idea of bending elbows outwards makes sense in theory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by coloccw

^^This. Cory is an ass clown with no experience. Stop trying to learn from youtube.

This is the frank type of reply I wanted [LOL]. Of the millions of youtube videos out there on firearms, I like finding some who have quite a few videos so I can watch them back to back without having to search in between.

However, on that last part, I might as well stop reading forums for information and learning too, because no one online has verifiable experience. [/sarcasm]. How else do you increase your shooting skills and training drills if you can't hear of them from places.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmleadr03

I just shoot from the hip. Well, kinda.
Here is one of my training videos.

http://themetapicture.com/media/funn...ooting-gun.gif

[ROFL1]

I guess what I'm taking away from here is stop watching youtube and just go shooting.
09-17-2013, 18:02
Ronin13

Quote:

Originally Posted by coloccw

^^This. Cory is an ass clown with no experience. Stop trying to learn from youtube.

Not to mention, and this is probably new info for some- the slide catch (no that's what it's called on a Glock) shouldn't be used as a "slide release"... many guns (M&Ps, XDs, Glocks, and others) the only function that slide catch has is to catch the slide, not release it. Sig is the only one I'm directly aware of (there could be more) that it actually is a slide release. This information is coming from a retired Arvada PD officer/instructor/armorer, so I put some stock into it, take it however you like. [Beer]
09-17-2013, 18:09
BuffCyclist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin13

Not to mention, and this is probably new info for some- the slide catch (no that's what it's called on a Glock) shouldn't be used as a "slide release"... many guns (M&Ps, XDs, Glocks, and others) the only function that slide catch has is to catch the slide, not release it. Sig is the only one I'm directly aware of (there could be more) that it actually is a slide release. This information is coming from a retired Arvada PD officer/instructor/armorer, so I put some stock into it, take it however you like. [Beer]

Oh trust me, I know this. I have gotten into the habit of using the slide stop on my Glock as a slide release and now that I have an M&P and the design does not allow it to be used as a slide release, I'm kicking myself for falling into that habit. I'm doing a ton of dry fire and magazine swaps in my Glock to try and overcome the temptation to use it as such.
09-17-2013, 18:24
MAP

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin13

Not to mention, and this is probably new info for some- the slide catch (no that's what it's called on a Glock) shouldn't be used as a "slide release"... many guns (M&Ps, XDs, Glocks, and others) the only function that slide catch has is to catch the slide, not release it. Sig is the only one I'm directly aware of (there could be more) that it actually is a slide release. This information is coming from a retired Arvada PD officer/instructor/armorer, so I put some stock into it, take it however you like. [Beer]

Glock would disagree with that statement. You can use it as a slide release. There are many misconceptions about using the "slingshot" vs "slide catch". In the end, use what works for you.

Mike