Friendly reminder about the FFL requirement in the Trading Post

We just want to remind EVERYONE that when posting a firearm for sale in the Private Party Firearms For Sale forum you MUST add the disclaimer that The transaction needs to be completed through an FFL.

We are seeing folks getting sloppy and lazy with this and it simply will not be tolerated moving forward. Please, please, please stop making more work for the staff and please follow the site rules as you have all read and acknowledged the site rules. Do not blame us for this you can thank your local .gov for the new laws. This site WILL NOT be shut down because someone else was negligent and didnt follow the rules.

Absolutely no exceptions. None. Period. I hope you all understand and realize this is not us but unfortunately we have to conform and deal with the new laws until this may be repealed.

Here are the site rules that you all read and acknowledged in case you forgot them, I am assuming you did actually read them the first time and didnt just post in the thread so you could have access to the trading post.

https://www.ar-15.co/threads/33477-*...e-Trading-Post

Thanks again for your understanding and cooperation.

Your friendly COAR-15 Site Staff

[Awesom]

[Awesom]

[Awesom]

Is there a way to systemically add the disclaimer to all ads posted in that section?

Amen brother. [Beer]

Don't forget "No Felons", and "Must have driver's license in order to operate a vehicle to drive to the FFL", and "Must not speed on the way to the FFL", and "must not plan bank robbery with me prior to purchase", and whatever other laws you might possibly break in the process of purchasing a firearm.

Point is, the law is the law. Why does only this law need to be spelled out? We live in a sick society that this website is forced to feel responsible, in any way, if two people decide to break the law. And if they decide to break this law: "The transaction needs to be completed through an FFL." why is that worse, or how is this website any more responsible for maintaining that law, than any of the others they could break?

I'm not saying this website is wrong for asking people to do this (and I will abide by it, and suggest you do the same), but if there is some legal responsibility, how can you stop there? There are a million laws they could break, and this website would theoretically be legally responsible for each and every one of them if they don't tell the members to add a disclaimer for each of them. Or you could just say "don't break any laws". Or you could say nothing, because not breaking laws should be assumed, as it is each and every second of my daily life, except when I'm on this website evidently.

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

Is there a way to systemically add the disclaimer to all ads posted in that section?

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I'm sure there is, at the same point why do we have to make it easier for someone to sell their wears here. I mean we are already providing the platform, advertising space directly focused to a particular customer base and we do it for free. What's next the site having to pick up xfer fees?

That's just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by generalmeow

Don't forget "No Felons", and "Must have driver's license in order to operate a vehicle to drive to the FFL", and "Must not speed on the way to the FFL", and "must not plan bank robbery with me prior to purchase", and whatever other laws you might possibly break in the process of purchasing a firearm.

Point is, the law is the law. Why does only this law need to be spelled out? We live in a sick society that this website is forced to feel responsible, in any way, if two people decide to break the law. And if they decide to break this law: "The transaction needs to be completed through an FFL." why is that worse, or how is this website any more responsible for maintaining that law, than any of the others they could break?

I'm not saying this website is wrong for asking people to do this (and I will abide by it, and suggest you do the same), but if there is some legal responsibility, how can you stop there? There are a million laws they could break.

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Plain and and simple that's the site regs. Anyone who doesn't feel like we are doing enough or it's to much of an inconvenience can go to gun broker or any of the other sites that have private sales and conduct their business there.

Again this is my humble opinion.

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Originally Posted by Mazin

Plain and and simple that's the site regs. Anyone who doesn't feel like we are doing enough or it's to much of an inconvenience can go to gun broker or any of the other sites that have private sales and conduct their business there.

Again this is my humble opinion.

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Yep, this^^.

Gereralmeow I understand your concerns but like Mazin stated feel free to go and deal with folks on Armslist. I'm sure your won't have any problems there.

The fact I have to explain this and defend myself is ridiculous. These are the site rules and they WILL be followed. If a deal goes down and it it goes bad but started here some dem out there will somehow twist it around and say how this site facilitated the sale and now we are responsible for it. Period.

No one is forcing you to sell here so all we ask is that the very few rules we have in place are honored. Everyone that replied before you(generalmeow) was fine with it but there always has to be one that thinks "rules are stupid"; to bad we will NOT be part of illegal trade here. It would be no different if someone posted up a silencer for general sale. It's illegal, period end of story. There is nothing that we do here knowing that is illegal, so for you to make a comment like that is infuriating. You touched a cord here bud, heed the rules or don't I don't care but you won't last long.

Yes we can add a line to every post that has this disclaimer to it but then WE are adding this and not the members themselves when they are selling their item.

I could give give two cramps what you do when your not on the forum and if you want to speed and drive without a license go right ahead that has nothing to do with us.

Thanks

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Originally Posted by generalmeow

Don't forget "No Felons", and "Must have driver's license in order to operate a vehicle to drive to the FFL", and "Must not speed on the way to the FFL", and "must not plan bank robbery with me prior to purchase", and whatever other laws you might possibly break in the process of purchasing a firearm.

Point is, the law is the law. Why does only this law need to be spelled out? We live in a sick society that this website is forced to feel responsible, in any way, if two people decide to break the law. And if they decide to break this law: "The transaction needs to be completed through an FFL." why is that worse, or how is this website any more responsible for maintaining that law, than any of the others they could break?

I'm not saying this website is wrong for asking people to do this (and I will abide by it, and suggest you do the same), but if there is some legal responsibility, how can you stop there? There are a million laws they could break, and this website would theoretically be legally responsible for each and every one of them if they don't tell the members to add a disclaimer for each of them. Or you could just say "don't break any laws". Or you could say nothing, because not breaking laws should be assumed, as it is each and every second of my daily life, except when I'm on this website evidently.

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Originally Posted by Mazin

Plain and and simple that's the site regs. Anyone who doesn't feel like we are doing enough or it's to much of an inconvenience can go to gun broker or any of the other sites that have private sales and conduct their business there.

Again this is my humble opinion.

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Well said Dave. I second this opinion.

Simple fact is that the decision to REQUIRE this statement in firearm sales shows "due diligence on behalf of the staff to comply with this law. If someone fails to follow the law and we failed to demonstrate "due diligence", members of the staff could be subject to liability in the eyes of the law. Given that you're a member here and not part of the staff, you aren't subject to the same liabilities we are if a member chooses to do something stupid. Your staff here will continue to do what we feel is in the best interest of the site, our members, and ourselves. If this means a small inconvenience to you, so be it. Most folks would agree that it's a very small price to pay for the FREE benefit of using this site to facilitate your sales. Discounting the rest of the site, managing the Trading Post itself requires a fair amount of effort for the staff. If we can put the effort into managing it, members can put a little effort into using it with minor inconvenient requirements.

ETA:

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Originally Posted by spleify

Yes we can add a line to every post that has this disclaimer to it but then WE are adding this and not the members themselves when they are selling their item.

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Right on. Point is, if WE add it automatically it can quickly be forgotten that this is a legal requirement. If YOU add it, you are reminded of what is needed to be legally compliant.

EETA: That post touched a cord with me too! I'm glad Dave & Leif addressed it first so my response was less abrupt.

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Originally Posted by theGinsue

If this means a small inconvenience to you, so be it.

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It's no inconvenience at all. I'm just wondering why don't you just say "don't break any laws" instead of "don't break this one law". If you're liable for the one law, aren't you liable for all the laws?

Alas, I am not allowed to wonder about anything per the terms of service, so I will slink away. Thank you for the work you do on the website.

Again, it's a matter of "due diligence". Some things require we demonstrate that (which explains many of the rules here), while others do not.

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

Is there a way to systemically add the disclaimer to all ads posted in that section?

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I think this is the best option. Make it stupid proof and it will cut down on the work of admins.

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Originally Posted by nynco

I think this is the best option. Make it stupid proof and it will cut down on the work of admins.

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[ROFL2]Oh, you were serious?!

[hahhah-no] So naive.

Last time I checked this was a PSA thread not a "give us you advice" thread. This is not nor will be up for debate.

Fin

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Originally Posted by generalmeow

It's no inconvenience at all. I'm just wondering why don't you just say "don't break any laws" instead of "don't break this one law". If you're liable for the one law, aren't you liable for all the laws?

Alas, I am not allowed to wonder about anything per the terms of service, so I will slink away. Thank you for the work you do on the website.

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Because there is only one item that is for sale in the "firearms" section and those are firearms and/or the controlled part in the eyes of the powers that be. As strange as it may seem there are still many that did not get the message about private transfers of firearms.

There are other laws that we look for as well IE 922r but are looked at in a case by case basis. Of course wanting to debate the rules that we have for the section makes the boss want to toss the section since we have always looked at the trading post sections as an "extra" for our members and not a core or necessary section.

Just a thought. [beatdeadhorse]

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Originally Posted by theGinsue

[ROFL2]Oh, you were serious?!

[hahhah-no] So naive.

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The main point here is CYA. In reality, you can't control much more than that. I would think there would be something that could be added to the script that would post that on every post in that section as a rider. Perhaps I am wrong, I don't know what code you are using. Just trying to help.

Yes, it can be added, but it negates some of the effect. Having users add it adds another layer of 'Showing reasonable measures to ensure that transactions on the site are following the law'.

If it is added systematically, there is one less bit of proof that we are ensuring our users intend to follow the law with transactions originating on site servers.

There is another crucial reason for this:

To show people that we are a law abiding group, even with laws that we don't agree with. Maybe it helps win some public opinion for people on the fence with gun control. Maybe not. But I can tell you there is definitely a crowd that will assume we are skirting the law if we don't include it, and cry for more control and regulation of online sales, personal sales, etc, etc. They are looking for whatever little reason they can find to justify further restrictions after all.

OK I understand your point.

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Originally Posted by nynco

The main point here is CYA. In reality, you can't control much more than that. I would think there would be something that could be added to the script that would post that on every post in that section as a rider. Perhaps I am wrong, I don't know what code you are using. Just trying to help.

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Thanks for your help but its not helpful.. its not going to happen, did you read any of this thread or just my first post before you posted. "due diligence" I will say it again so maybe you will read it this time, if WE add it it does nothing, if YOU, the one selling the firearm adds it it shows you are taking some of your own responsibility. Some people only want to think the mods and admins here are just here to be jerks and say mean things and make you do ludicrous things. You know what sometimes it would be nice to actually just cruise the boards like everyone else does. All of this and the fact that I am not going to cater to libs(yes you NYNCO, with your "you need to do everything for me attitude'') means that I started this thread as a "Friendly reminder"

I hope we are all on the same page here now.

Thanks again, your friendly COAR-15 staff.

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Originally Posted by nynco

The main point here is CYA. In reality, you can't control much more than that. I would think there would be something that could be added to the script that would post that on every post in that section as a rider. Perhaps I am wrong, I don't know what code you are using. Just trying to help.

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There is something that can be added. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!

Honestly, my only thought was how to make the mods life easier. Its not about catering to me at all or anyone else. I can't win around here its attack the lib knee jerk style. I don't even consider myself a lib anymore.

Just a thought, and I don't know what it would require.

But if it was added automatically, when you go to create a post could there be a pop up like on arms list with a disclaimer? Even on a reply a pop up with the state law. If you're going to want members to indemnify the site by stating all laws will be followed, why not force it on the seller and buyer, if they don't agree they can't view/post.


I don't have any guns to sell so I just ask, if it were an option.


I honestly think if someone fails to post it.. Delete the post and let them try till they get it right. I'm sure this along with monitoring the posts would be more work in the long run rather than an enforced agree/disagree. Again I don't know what it would require but it sounds easier total time invested.


Sent by a free-range electronic weasel, with no sense of personal space.

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Originally Posted by nynco

Honestly, my only thought was how to make the mods life easier. Its not about catering to me at all or anyone else. I can't win around here its attack the lib knee jerk style. I don't even consider myself a lib anymore.

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My specific reply wasn't directed AT you just used for quoting purposes.
WHY does anyone other than the person wanting to sell A FFL /BG required item need to rely on anyone but them self, to ensure all guidelines are followed ?

Sorry Kazoo, it was more directed at Speify. I should have quoted, but I hate to do that when the quote is so long.


My personal default in most things is to make everything as stupid proof as possible. That way it cuts down on the dumb questions or F'ups. I think in this situation, the best course of action is one that provides the most legal cover for the board and the admins. Though I think "J" makes a very valid point. Perhaps there is a mechanism that could be put in place that would do both. Like forcing a person to TYPE something word for word into a box that then gets posted onto the page.

Example: caption above states -Type into box bellow: "Private party transaction, must go through certified FFL before sale or purchase". That is then added to the bottom of the add.

I realize all of this may be coding nightmare. Just bouncing ideas out there. But in this regard it is harder than checking a box and makes them type the correct words before posting. Which should make it stupid proof and cover "J" concerns.

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Originally Posted by Monky

Just a thought, and I don't know what it would require.

But if it was added automatically, when you go to create a post could there be a pop up like on arms list with a disclaimer? Even on a reply a pop up with the state law. If you're going to want members to indemnify the site by stating all laws will be followed, why not force it on the seller and buyer, if they don't agree they can't view/post.


I don't have any guns to sell so I just ask, if it were an option.


I honestly think if someone fails to post it.. Delete the post and let them try till they get it right. I'm sure this along with monitoring the posts would be more work in the long run rather than an enforced agree/disagree. Again I don't know what it would require but it sounds easier total time invested.


Sent by a free-range electronic weasel, with no sense of personal space.

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Thats why we make people post an acknowledgement to the rules thread before they can sell/buy from the TP. Same effect, just less times having to do it.

ALL: Please see my last post to get an idea of the greater picture here as well. While it is due diligence for the site, it also has other reasons which aren't to be overlooked.

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Originally Posted by spleify

Yep, this^^.

Gereralmeow I understand your concerns but like Mazin stated feel free to go and deal with folks on Armslist. I'm sure your won't have any problems there.

The fact I have to explain this and defend myself is ridiculous. These are the site rules and they WILL be followed. If a deal goes down and it it goes bad but started here some dem out there will somehow twist it around and say how this site facilitated the sale and now we are responsible for it. Period.

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To be frank, I wasn't complaining, just trying to remove the human error chance from the process. The reasoning on keeping the onus on the seller is perfectly reasonable; it's my own memory that isn't.