9MM Over penatration.

My carry gun is an HK USP 9mm compact. 13+1 is ideal for my needs. I may be over thinking this to much but I am worried about over penatration. What are some views on defence ammo for the 9mm? Iworry that most will go threw and threw in most cases and travel on to hit someone other than who it was intended for. I carry the Liberty USM49mm. Rated at 50grain 2000fps 12 inches in depth and 5 inches in width @ 25 meters. There is very little recoil with these but then I worry about threw clothing, glass or anything you may need to go threw before you get to the bad guy. What do you find best and why?

Personally I choose any of the reputable premium defense rounds, with Federal HST and Speer Gold dot at the top. I would not recommend any of the fancy super light, super fast rounds like the Liberty, for fear of under penetration. I'm currently carrying gold dot 124 grain +p, and am perfectly comfortable with these, not at all worried about over penetration. To be quite honest, I'm more worried about over penetrating my wife than my carry ammo, and I'm of Irish descent....

Don't forget the Ranger-T line from Winchester. Harder to find but up there with HST and GoldDot.

Anything that will get deep enough to incapacitate through bone, clothing or a side shot through arm, shoulder, bone, ribs and finally into vitals will penetrate through a braodside assailant or dry wall, or....

Know your target and what is beyond. Further than that... you unfortunately have to take the risk of over penetration if you need to deploy lethal force. Do the best you possibly can, then hope for the best. Better than the sure result of getting killed if you use ineffective ammo, or are too afraid of over penetration to defend your self.

In the end, know that it was the bad guy that caused the whole event, not the legally armed defendant. And luckily in criminal cases that fact is often recognized (doctrine of competing harms). Unfortunately in civil cases that is not as definite.

Completely agree on the Winchester T line, I just didn't mention it because I haven't found any in quite some time.

There is a really good series of video reviews on youtube testing popular self defense rounds out of a short barrel as commonly found on many ccw guns. In the tests, many rounds that perform great from a longer barrel don't have quite enough velocity to get good expansion, and therefore over-penetrate.

It was based on those tests that I went for the Federal HST rounds.

Here's one of the reviews (with links on this one to get to the others)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lGqdMdbir0

Frankly, in a lethal force shooting scenario, the last thing I'm going to worry about is over-penetration. My guess is missing your target completely is a far greater likelihood. In that case your concern about harming an innocent is probably more justified. I'd also steer away from the "exotic" types of ammo and go with a name brand maker like Winchester, Federal, etc. Personally, I like the Ranger ammo. But it's not that big a deal for me. Hell...I carry ball ammo sometimes if that's what I happen to have loaded for whatever reason.

I'm sure the over-penetration thing has happened in the past but personally I don't remember hearing of one.

Another vote here for the big name brand (Fed, Speer, Win, etc...) in well constructed hollow points. Get 100 of them through your carry gun, using every magazine you might use for carry, without any problems and you will have found your carry round.

A good starting point is finding the same ammunition used by local LE. They either do their own testing or rely on testing from other larger departments or agencies. Since they often buy in quantity, they will shop for good price per round to stretch their budget.

Last, there are no "magic bullets" that always expand, always fully penetrate, never miss, and never over penetrate. Some of the best, most reliable ammunition will have squibs or fail to expand. If we could count on one round doing the job, we wouldn't need more than a few rounds to begin with. Most things worth shooting once, are worth shooting at least three times.

Be safe.

I do whatever DocGKR tells me to do. Win Ranger T or Gold Dots, whatever I have on hand.

I got lucky in 2011 and stumbled on a case of the 127gr Ranger T +p+. It's a little hot, so check with your gun's manufacturer first. You may need to change springs a little more frequently.

Frankly, I lump the Liberty in with Magsafes and Glasers and the Lemas "blended metal" crap. They're gimmicks, IMHO, and the only way they're a good choice is if the alternative is "unarmed." Give me a good well-constructed medium-heavy JHP if I get any choice in the matter.

I'm no expert in the matter by far, but I would imagine a 9mm round that passes through a bad guy would probably lose enough energy in doing so that it wouldn't be a huge issue anyways. I could be totally wrong.

Depends on whether it expands or not. If it stays in tact and avoids hitting bone on a broad-side shot it will still have plenty of energy after the pass through.

Coincidentally, I've been considering adding one of my 9mm's into the CCW rotation. What is generally considered the best bullet weight for defense in 9mm? 115, 124, or 147?

Here's the common sense answer:

You don't know the dynamics of any situation in the future, ie...target thickness, if you will hit bone or not, how much clothing will they be wearing, where the bullet may deflect to, if you have to shoot through drywall/glass, etc... There are a million different variables you CANNOT predict. Since you don't know the exact circumstance you will be encountering, it's all a guess. As mentioned many times before, pick a well known brand that runs in your gun and fits your budget. Don't over think it. The object is to put lots of holes in the attacker, not debate over expansion or velocity or projectile weight. Be aware of your surroundings, including what is beyond your target and solve the issue.

Personally, I use what is used by a LE agency. Their attorneys have written their response when asked why they chose that brand of ammo so that saves me the hassle if I have to explain why in court. No need to reinvent the wheel.

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Originally Posted by rondog

Coincidentally, I've been considering adding one of my 9mm's into the CCW rotation. What is generally considered the best bullet weight for defense in 9mm? 115, 124, or 147?

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Personally I prefer 124 and 147. With that said, the 147's must be the newer technology bullet, capable of expanding at lower 147 velocities. I'd suggest buying some of the 124 HST over at SGammo, and call it a day.

^^^^This. Excellent response.

I believe the current favorite bullet weights in 9mm are 115 and 124. Go +P in any brand name JHP. Buy a bunch and shoot the heck out of it.

Be safe.

I like Hornady critical defense. I also frequently carry federal bulk FMJs.

I personally prefer Hornady Critical Duty for my 9mm. However, over penetration is not my concern. Remember that 9, 40, 45 all can take multiple hits before stopping the immediate threat. The one hit drops come from faster rounds that penetrate the life out of the bad guy and smash stuff behind him.

Know if that 124gr Federal HST is available locally? I hate to pay shipping (and hazmat?) on one measly box of ammo, can't afford to buy more. Especially when I have tons of 9mm plinking ammo loaded up and components to build thousands more.

Finished cartridges don't have hazmat fees, just powder and primers when not combined.

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Originally Posted by rondog

Know if that 124gr Federal HST is available locally? I hate to pay shipping (and hazmat?) on one measly box of ammo, can't afford to buy more. Especially when I have tons of 9mm plinking ammo loaded up and components to build thousands more.

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You don't have to pay hazmat on ammo, but shipping is usually ten bucks or so. You can but the 20 round boxes of HST at Cabelas, but the cost on those is a bit steep.

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Originally Posted by cstone

^^^^This. Excellent response.

I believe the current favorite bullet weights in 9mm are 115 and 124. Go +P in any brand name JHP. Buy a bunch and shoot the heck out of it.

Be safe.

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Yep. 147 gr is meant for sub guns (MP5 & such).

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Originally Posted by rondog

Know if that 124gr Federal HST is available locally? I hate to pay shipping (and hazmat?) on one measly box of ammo, can't afford to buy more. Especially when I have tons of 9mm plinking ammo loaded up and components to build thousands more.

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Check Jax in FOCO if your up this way. I'll double check next time I'm up there.

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Originally Posted by coloccw

Yep. 147 gr is meant for sub guns (MP5 & such).

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New production 147 grain ammo such as the HST is not meant for sub guns.

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Originally Posted by coloccw

Yep. 147 gr is meant for sub guns (MP5 & such).

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I sure didn't know that! Thanks, you saved me from buying the bullets to roll my own!

And me drive to FOCO?! You have a better chance of having lunch with Elvis! I'd pay the shipping before my cheap ass would burn $40 in gas to drive that far for a box of ammo! I'll find some locally, or buy the bullets and make my own. Carrying a 9 is new to me, I'm a .45 fanboy. But now I have a Hi-Power clone, and my 9mm RIA 1911 is proving to be the most accurate pistol I own. Many thanks to whoever I bought that from!

I always wonder about folks worried about overpenetration. The real question isn't: "What happens to my bullets after they've lost almost all their momentum passing through a bad guy", but "What happens to the bullets that miss the bad guy because I've got about 9000 times more adrenalin coursing through my system than I've ever had and I'm shaking from it and it's dark and while I'm not firing blindly my muscles are on autopilot and <click click click> how did I run out of 18 bullets so fast and I hope everythings ok"

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Originally Posted by ChadAmberg

I always wonder about folks worried about overpenetration. The real question isn't: "What happens to my bullets after they've lost almost all their momentum passing through a bad guy", but "What happens to the bullets that miss the bad guy because I've got about 9000 times more adrenalin coursing through my system than I've ever had and I'm shaking from it and it's dark and while I'm not firing blindly my muscles are on autopilot and <click click click> how did I run out of 18 bullets so fast and I hope everythings ok"

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[Coffee] You ain't the only feller wondering such things.

Having shot quite a few animals up to and including deer with hollow points, I can tell you that I am far more concerned with underpenetration than I am about overpenetration.

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Originally Posted by Zombie Steve

I am far more concerned with underpenetration than I am about overpenetration.

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As is just about every other heterosexual male on the planet I suppose.

[Coffee]

Married, so I get it quarterly whether I need it or not. Cue the house music.

[DJ]

Late to party- as usual.

It was already corrected, but to say it again... New 147gr defense ammo is NOT built for subguns. ColoCCW is working off of some VERY old data referencing the first 147gr bullets designed for increased accuracy out of some mp5 for SF folks. Testing on 147HST gives reliable expansion (best I've seen- anywhere in 9mm) and penetration of ~12" through FBI standard calibrated gel out of a 5" barrel.

I wouldn't worry about over-penetration. Worry about under-penetration. Brassfetchers has nice ballistics visuals as well as diagram showing just how much of target areas are covered by bone. Another thing to worry about is bad angles can vastly increase depth needed for ballistic effect (so can fat... And the majority of Americans walk around with a good 4-6in of it around vitals). Some Google image searching will yield plenty of pictures of rounds from some very large handguns stopped on top of a sternum. Also, things as simple as down jackets have shown to reduce penetration to under 3" in skinny bad guys being shot with FBI approved, department issued .40 180gr gold dots.

my work has me manipulating human tissue with all manner of tooling and I can tell you from experience- the layers of connective tissue,cartilage, and bone that cover the center of the chest will stop MANY ballistic objects. I have found buckshot lying on top of cartilage before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3VfWkWMzOI&sns=em

i prefer the 147s because they shoot identically to my competition load and give the smoothest, least snappy, fastest recoverable recoil impulse I have found. Yes, all 9mm is fairly manageable, but I can manage .16-.20sec split times and stay in a vitals zone on a silhouette at 7yd all day with these.

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Originally Posted by centrarchidae

I do whatever DocGKR tells me to do. Win Ranger T or Gold Dots, whatever I have on hand.

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+1

DocGKR is a good source for scholarly ammo testing.

Picked up the last two boxes of Ranger RA40T at the local Knoxville gun shop.

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Originally Posted by rustycrusty

Late to party- as usual.

It was already corrected, but to say it again... New 147gr defense ammo is NOT built for subguns. ColoCCW is working off of some VERY old data referencing the first 147gr bullets designed for increased accuracy out of some mp5 for SF folks. Testing on 147HST gives reliable expansion (best I've seen- anywhere in 9mm) and penetration of ~12" through FBI standard calibrated gel out of a 5" barrel.

According to the Hornady website as of today (current enough for you?), the 147gr has a KE at muzzle of 310 ft/lbs vs the 115gr at 341 ft/lbs. Thats a loss of approx 10% due to insufficient velocity from a 4" barrel. I don't know too many people who carry a 5" 9mm that you refer to in "testing." I won't get into the discussion of "ballistic gel testing/FBI Standard blah blah blah" and all the crap with that other than that phrase has lost almost all validity due to it not taking into all the other factors that affect terminal ballistics. A quick search can find thousands of discussions on 147gr in various barrel lengths., most agreeing that the heavier bullets should stay with sub guns.


As I stated before, pick a round that runs in your specific gun, from a well known manufacturer, and put holes in the threat until it stops. Trying to predict which round will do best for an unknown scenario is just guesswork. Anyone who says they have the "right answer" or perfect bullet is full of shit.

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Using the Hornady website for defensive ammunition information, is like using DPMS, for a serious discussion on small arms for battle use. Neither are exactly big players in the discussions being had.

I see someone else posted the link to this vid, here it is embedded.

HST 147 grain out of a pocket 9 (3 inch barrel)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3VfWkWMzOI&amp;index=11

Amazing expansion, great penetration. Expansion is actually a little better than the 124gr HST that I'm currently carrying.

Look at some of the same guy's tests on some of the older self defense ammo, it's amazing to see the expansion difference compared to the new generation of ammo.

ColoCCW... U mad bro?

I've made my point. You are wrong. 147gr- not just for subguns. Maybe best round for subguns like mp5 is a special developed load in 147gr but MANY companies now offer defense rounds for short barrels that offer very attractive test results and handling characteristics.

Not good when people chose to ignore and not talk about FBI gel tests or other quantitative methods of comparison... And instead talk about what others talk about...

I can find thousands of discussions on chemtrails being a real problem brainwashing all of us...

I can find thousands of discussions about birdshot as a viable and lethal defense solution... I'm not interested in these opinions because I have seen scientific methods prove this is a bad option compared to just about anything else.

If there is no evidence presented in someone's arguement and their only retort is to discredit evidence that exists... Maybe not a great person to listen to...


Everyone:

apologies for thread diversion.
I don't have the perfect carry round. I do know what I like and I can articulate why with more than 'because someone else uses it'.
careful not to step in the BS

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Originally Posted by rustycrusty

ColoCCW... U mad bro?

I've made my point. You are wrong. 147gr- not just for subguns. Maybe best round for subguns like mp5 is a special developed load in 147gr but MANY companies now offer defense rounds for short barrels that offer very attractive test results and handling characteristics.

Not good when people chose to ignore and not talk about FBI gel tests or other quantitative methods of comparison... And instead talk about what others talk about...

I can find thousands of discussions on chemtrails being a real problem brainwashing all of us...

I can find thousands of discussions about birdshot as a viable and lethal defense solution... I'm not interested in these opinions because I have seen scientific methods prove this is a bad option compared to just about anything else.

If there is no evidence presented in someone's arguement and their only retort is to discredit evidence that exists... Maybe not a great person to listen to...


Everyone:

apologies for thread diversion.
I don't have the perfect carry round. I do know what I like and I can articulate why with more than 'because someone else uses it'.
careful not to step in the BS

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Not mad one bit. FBI gel tests are not a good baseline for choosing a round. Not enough variables tested. This is plain to see. 147s do work in shorter barrels. However, basic physics show that that they do not work nearly as well bullets with higher Kinetic Energy such as 115 or 124 gr. 147s don't get enough muzzle velocity in handguns to compare to lighter weight and faster loads. This is also easily seen in ANY ammo manufacturer's ballistics chart. I'm not making this stuff up, I'm showing you the undisputed data from the source. You have not... Quantitative enough?

Concerned about overpenetration? Use Glaser Safety slugs for the top 6 rounds of your magload.

I was looking at some data on the new Gold Dot G2 and discussing this with a buddy today, specifically the 124 +P vs 147.
[Dunno] He likes the new G2 especially for recoil in a shorter barrel wheel gun, I like Doubletap or Hornady out of a G19, just by feel vs a 115 or 147. But it really does seems like the data is splitting hairs to me. [Dunno]

They all suck if you miss. [shithitsfan]

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Originally Posted by cstone

They all suck if you miss. [shithitsfan]

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Agree, and heavy for caliber is typically milder recoiling, thus allowing for more accurate shots /thread lol

But seriously, just buy a premium defense round, in whatever weight you can shoot accurately, and afford to practice with, and call it a day.

I have been carrying 124 grain +p Gold Dots up until recently picking up a G27, now I'm carrying 180 grain HST.

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Originally Posted by hurley842002

But seriously, just buy a premium defense round, in whatever weight you can shoot accurately, and afford to practice with, and call it a day.

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If I had a dollar for every time this type of thread ended like this.... I could probably afford a box of premium defense ammo! [LOL]