Massad Ayoob: Terrorism in America, the Armed Citizen's View, interesting article

Massad has written an article for Backwoods Home, entitled "Terrorism in America, the Armed Citizen's View": http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob150.html

I find this quote rather interesting, wondering if there should be more training in disarming techniques for the CCW citizen?

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Hand-to-hand combat, by definition, only works at hand-to-hand distance. Trying to punch, kick, or throw human monsters armed with guns does not have a great history of success, so your best bet is to effectively learn disarming. Properly taught, this will be a structured system that attacks the weapon rather than the man holding it, using your initial movement to deflect the gun barrel away from you (or another intended victim) and then flowing into a leverage-based movement pattern that rips the weapon out of the malefactor's hands.

At Massad Ayoob Group LLC, we teach a system based on the work of Jim Lindell, in my opinion the leading expert on disarming and on gun retention, which is defeating a Bad Guy's attempt to disarm the Good Guy. In the Pacific Northwest, Firearms Academy of Seattle also teaches this to qualified private citizens; such systems are normally taught only to police. Few conventional martial arts dojos have anything this effective, so for local training your best bet is to seek out a Krav Maga school. It has been my experience that most, if not all, Krav Maga instructors will teach very effective leverage-based gun disarming.

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Another awesome article by Ayoob.

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Originally Posted by HBARleatherneck

I thought we used the "two to the chest one to the head" method to make them drop their weapon?

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We do if we don't want to tie up our legal system with terrorists. I could see this being useful when dealing with little Johnny and his hurt feelers when he takes dad's rifle to school, just so you could throw him a beating afterwards. But for goat poking terrorists a triple dose of lead is the best option because I for one don't want to have to pay for their lawyers or room and bored.

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Originally Posted by trlcavscout

We do if we don't want to tie up our legal system with terrorists. I could see this being useful when dealing with little Johnny and his hurt feelers when he takes dad's rifle to school, just so you could throw him a beating afterwards. But for goat poking terrorists a triple dose of lead is the best option because I for one don't want to have to pay for their lawyers or room and bored.

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Yep.

To add one bit that Mr. Ayoob either didn't know or forgot to mention- when doing a disarming technique (as taught in Krav Maga and a few other disciplines)- one heavy, hard strike to the head after the firearm's barrel has been deflected, will aid in removing the weapon from their grip.

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Originally Posted by trlcavscout

But for goat poking terrorists a triple dose of lead is the best option because I for one don't want to have to pay for their lawyers or room and bored.

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Triple dose? I'm pulling that trigger until I have an empty chamber.

"I was so scared for my life, I just reacted. I guess it took the slide locking open to make me realize he was down. I'm just glad all my shots hit the bad guy(s) and no innocent bystanders."

Sounds like a sales pitch for his new classes. I not saying that there is no place for unarmed combatives but Ayoob's motives are usually financially based.

Funny that it does mention the classes his group teaches.. nothing like a shameless plug!

Martial arts is funny when it comes to weapons.. It's not something you can just jump in to depending on the school. Krav does have some real basic disarm techniques that are simple and effective. I've been in that blue suit.. it's not all that fun. I miss Krav.. I need to go back..

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Originally Posted by foxtrot

Additionally, you need to be in the habit of doing a failure drill whenever you recover it. (Either disarms or retention). Because you don't have time to think if it capable of firing or not - and if hands were on the gun (semi-automatic), it probably isn't.

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TRB?

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Originally Posted by foxtrot

Probably just RB.
Tapping the magazine is probably unnecessary. I recommend pointing the ejection port towards the ground.

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Or, if applicable: RBBBBBBBBBBBBBB ...(reload, if available)... BBBBBBBBBBBBBBB

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Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

Or, if applicable: RBBBBBBBBBBBBBB ...(reload, if available)... BBBBBBBBBBBBBBB

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Or an ironic RSLDohhhhhhh! [Muaha]

IMO if you're evaluating the threat as 'innocent little Johnny' or a 'goat poker' you're already in the wrong mindset for self defense. A threat is a threat is a threat and if I'm armed (if I'm breathing I'm armed) then I'm meeting said threat with force of action until it's no longer a threat. I'll deal with emotions (what are those) and potential litigation in the weeks/months/years that follow but I'll be alive to address them. Anything short of that takes you a step (of four) the wrong direction to being able to deal with those things if you get my drift.

Someone tells me about a problem and then in the same breath offers something that can solve it at his profit and I have to question the source's motives & the severity of said problem.

I recognise the benefits of unarmed combat skills, but personally it comes down to prioritization for me:
I don't have a lot of time on my hands: I work full-time plus studying after hours (and I'm married [Kick3], which comes with its own responsibilities), so I really have to choose carefully what I am going to focus on. Personally it makes more sense for me to spend the scarce free time I have mastering handgun techniques and drills, as opposed to trying to squeeze unarmed combatives in there too. My EDC handgun is afterall what I consider my primary weapon, and I am paranoid about maintaining (if not improving) my proficiency with it.

Perhaps I'm looking at this wrong, but then again that is what a forum is for: debate.

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Originally Posted by Gunservant

I recognise the benefits of unarmed combat skills, but personally it comes down to prioritization for me:
I don't have a lot of time on my hands: I work full-time plus studying after hours (and I'm married [Kick3], which comes with its own responsibilities), so I really have to choose carefully what I am going to focus on. Personally it makes more sense for me to spend the scarce free time I have mastering handgun techniques and drills, as opposed to trying to squeeze unarmed combatives in there too. My EDC handgun is afterall what I consider my primary weapon, and I am paranoid about maintaining (if not improving) my proficiency with it.

Perhaps I'm looking at this wrong, but then again that is what a forum is for: debate.

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Ah a new member, from SA no less... Welcome.
My point of contention with your post is simple- what do you do when a threat disarms you, or puts you into a position where you are physically unable to draw your weapon? I'm a big advocate of training in all aspects of EDC, and one of those is self defense without a weapon. There are several disciplines that teach disarming techniques that can be easily attained for anyone with the desire to- I personally improve my current LE training with Krav Maga, but other mixed martial arts gyms teach various techniques that once you get the basics and fundamentals down are easy to continue learning and begin to introduce into muscle memory (as Foxtrot so eloquently put it). Until training becomes an instinctive reaction, keep going. And then when it is instinctive, keep training. Many things, like shooting, driving, and hand-to-hand are perishable skills.

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

Ah a new member, from SA no less... Welcome.
My point of contention with your post is simple- what do you do when a threat disarms you, or puts you into a position where you are physically unable to draw your weapon? I'm a big advocate of training in all aspects of EDC, and one of those is self defense without a weapon. There are several disciplines that teach disarming techniques that can be easily attained for anyone with the desire to- I personally improve my current LE training with Krav Maga, but other mixed martial arts gyms teach various techniques that once you get the basics and fundamentals down are easy to continue learning and begin to introduce into muscle memory (as Foxtrot so eloquently put it). Until training becomes an instinctive reaction, keep going. And then when it is instinctive, keep training. Many things, like shooting, driving, and hand-to-hand are perishable skills.

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Get MY gun from me? Good luck with all that. If the BG gets my gun from me then I probably froze & probably wouldn't be able to call up my hand to hand training either. You're now talking about a long shot within a long shot within a long shot that you're training for. At some point your ROI for training is diminutive and I think that's what he's talking about. Sure he can budget his time to train for the 0.00000001% likelihood but it would take away from his training for the 0.00001% likelihood in his case.

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

... but other mixed martial arts gyms teach various techniques that once you get the basics and fundamentals down are easy to continue learning and begin to introduce into muscle memory (as Foxtrot so eloquently put it). Until training becomes an instinctive reaction, keep going. And then when it is instinctive, keep training.

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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means...

if something is instinctive, why do you have to practice it? Muscles don't have memory either...you want to say "mylinazation" which means new pathways via nerve cells and creating a direct patch for that given action. If you want to see your "instinctive" actions, have someone scare you.

Thanks for the welcome :)

I am absolutely not dismissing the value of unarmed combat skills. I have a limited repertoire of weapon retention skills, and those I practice often, but most of my time goes into practicing shooting and drills. One day when I have more time, I will definitely dedicate more time to unarmed combatives.

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Originally Posted by Jer

Get MY gun from me? Good luck with all that. If the BG gets my gun from me then I probably froze & probably wouldn't be able to call up my hand to hand training either. You're now talking about a long shot within a long shot within a long shot that you're training for. At some point your ROI for training is diminutive and I think that's what he's talking about. Sure he can budget his time to train for the 0.00000001% likelihood but it would take away from his training for the 0.00001% likelihood in his case.

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Pretty much exactly what I was trying to infer.

Instinctive is the easiest way to explain to lay people what "mylinazation" means.

Training disarm techniques doesn't take that long to learn. Practice will be like any skill and the movement will slow down as you get better. You will think you are going slow but someone watching will see you moving very fast.

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Originally Posted by Jer

Get MY gun from me? Good luck with all that. If the BG gets my gun from me then I probably froze & probably wouldn't be able to call up my hand to hand training either. You're now talking about a long shot within a long shot within a long shot that you're training for. At some point your ROI for training is diminutive and I think that's what he's talking about. Sure he can budget his time to train for the 0.00000001% likelihood but it would take away from his training for the 0.00001% likelihood in his case.

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Aside from you being Bruce Lee or Jason Borne, there are cases, while yes, you're correct they are rare, there are still cases of assailants using a victim's firearm against them. I'm not saying take away from good firearms training to train for a scenario that is unlikely to happen (unlikely does not mean impossible), but simply saying that to be well rounded in your training, why not utilize all tactics and incorporate them into your training regimen so you're better trained and more prepared for any scenario? Yes, I agree that it's a long shot, but what happens when that long shot happens and you're unable to meet the threat? It's that same line we've heard before: "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it."

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

Aside from you being Bruce Lee or Jason Borne, there are cases, while yes, you're correct they are rare, there are still cases of assailants using a victim's firearm against them. I'm not saying take away from good firearms training to train for a scenario that is unlikely to happen (unlikely does not mean impossible), but simply saying that to be well rounded in your training, why not utilize all tactics and incorporate them into your training regimen so you're better trained and more prepared for any scenario? Yes, I agree that it's a long shot, but what happens when that long shot happens and you're unable to meet the threat? It's that same line we've heard before: "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it."

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Yes, a lot of training and being well rounded is ideal, however you seem to be speaking from the single with no children, expendable time and money camp. I used to spend lots of time at the gym, partake in Krav a couple times a week, and put rounds down range once a week. I'm married now, with two kids and no money, I'm happy getting to the gym for an hour 5 days a week. I guess life is about priorities.

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

Aside from you being Bruce Lee or Jason Borne, there are cases, while yes, you're correct they are rare, there are still cases of assailants using a victim's firearm against them. I'm not saying take away from good firearms training to train for a scenario that is unlikely to happen (unlikely does not mean impossible), but simply saying that to be well rounded in your training, why not utilize all tactics and incorporate them into your training regimen so you're better trained and more prepared for any scenario? Yes, I agree that it's a long shot, but what happens when that long shot happens and you're unable to meet the threat? It's that same line we've heard before: "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it."

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That's the point. I DO have a gun so I do NOT need to worry about training on how to disarm. My gun IS my method for disarming a threat & just about as effective as you can get with minimal margin for error especially at ranges you're talking about physically disarming someone. There's nobody on the face of this earth that would make me take pause if they had a gun & meant to do me harm with it. A threat is another paper target to me. I may have an emotional reaction but that will come after the fact. I don't make habit of presenting my firearm w/o using it in an effort to diffuse the situation. If it comes out it will be firing a string or rounds into the threat starting in a time that is impossible for the human brain to register let alone act on. That's my chosen method for disarming an assailant. I was in Tae Kwon Do long enough as a youth to know that it's a wonderful form of exercise, a good way to teach discipline and a great way to keep wayward youths out of trouble. That being said, in all my street fights as a youth I never got into my stance and summoned from my training. I reverted to street fighting which I was good at and it always worked. That's instinctual. I don't see martial arts as a viable solution in a gun fight. If you're just looking for something to do I will agree that this is as good a hobby as any. If you're talking about most people having to squeeze yet another thing into their day I'm not sure this is something that's worthy of the time invested for most people reading this.

Again, my point is lost on this discussion. I was just making a suggestion, follow it or not, it's not me or my life.

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

Again, my point is lost on this discussion. I was just making a suggestion, follow it or not, it's not me or my life.

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I don't think your point is lost at all, in fact I agree with everything you said. I was merely stating that being as "well rounded" as you are suggesting isn't feasible for most people.

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Originally Posted by coloccw

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means...

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Am I the only one that caught that? [Coffee]

I loved that movie;
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/73...e2fa7413e9.jpg


I have read through each post of this thread (lot of opinion and facts) and by no means I have no true experience or training to add in anything useful, but I do have this.

A quote from my late father; "Do what you not only feel comfortable doing, but most important of all is knowing what you are actually capable of doing first."

Where did I heard my Dad make that quote and why it stuck in my head?

Story time;
Many moons ago, I was like 10, my Aunt at the time had spent 10+ years taking judo and other martial arts. At a family event, she started bragging. My dad and her got in this huge debate much like this thread BTW, quotes from experts here and there. They were both stubborn and my aunt was going to "show him, her skills and prove him wrong."

He is handed a toy gun from my collection and she told him to act out him pointing the gun at her to rob her or whatever and she would disarm him and get away. Just for a note My dad was 8" taller and 3x her weight and had tree trunks for arms, but I would not consider him a "Big Guy."

First try he simply overpowered her and put the gun to her chest and made a bang sound and stated; "Your Dead" while he smiled evilly knowing he was right.

This infuriated my aunt, she spent all this time practicing, practicing, and practicing. She got so mad and made my dad stand in different positions, different angles. Each time my Dad just overpowered her small frame, I just remember this carried on for like 45 minutes. She even tried to flip him and he just picked her up.

Last time she tried he laughed and said; "Here you go, you need the GUN more than I do." That is when he made that famous quote I mentioned above.

That is all I have, goodnight. :)

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

Aside from you being Bruce Lee or Jason Borne, there are cases, while yes, you're correct they are rare, there are still cases of assailants using a victim's firearm against them. I'm not saying take away from good firearms training to train for a scenario that is unlikely to happen (unlikely does not mean impossible), but simply saying that to be well rounded in your training, why not utilize all tactics and incorporate them into your training regimen so you're better trained and more prepared for any scenario? Yes, I agree that it's a long shot, but what happens when that long shot happens and you're unable to meet the threat? It's that same line we've heard before: "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it."

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

Again, my point is lost on this discussion. I was just making a suggestion, follow it or not, it's not me or my life.

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So what training are you taking outside of the academy to become "more rounded?" Or do you think the police academy is all you need?

The more options you have, the better. If you only have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. I try to always be adding to my toolbox. Hopefully I don't come off looking like a cheap tool.

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Originally Posted by TFOGGER

The more options you have, the better. If you only have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. I try to always be adding to my toolbox. Hopefully I don't come off looking like a cheap tool.

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But there's also something to be said for being able to quickly retrieve that hammer and use it efficiently if you're a roofer versus having to dig through a giant tool box when all you're doing is hammering nails.

Conversely, a hammer isn't necessarily the best tool to remove a bolt. Moving back to the original topic, by all means, carry concealed and be proficient in the use of your chosen firearm, but it doesn't hurt to have a few other options to deal with situations not of your making. Alternatives are good [Flower]

Are we still talking about CCW? [hammer]

You absolutely do need to be able to handle yourself in a hand to hand confrontation. Never bring a gun to a knife fight.
On the other side of it, having too many tools in your bag brings hesitation. Learn the concepts, drill them until the actions become reactions, don't overcomplicate things for yourself.

Also, Ayoob is a douchemonger.

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Originally Posted by TFOGGER

Conversely, a hammer isn't necessarily the best tool to remove a bolt. Moving back to the original topic, by all means, carry concealed and be proficient in the use of your chosen firearm, but it doesn't hurt to have a few other options to deal with situations not of your making. Alternatives are good [Flower]

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I get the saying but you're missing the point. Instead of a hammer maybe I should have said Leatherman. It won't do any one job better than the individual tool but it will do good enough to get me out of 99.99% of situations. Sure I could get each tool individually and learn to use it extensively so I'm a pro with it in case that task ever comes along but if it starts taking time from learning to use the Leatherman or brings a moment of hesitation when normally I'd just reach for the Leatherman.... there is a downside to adding all those additional tools. Also, I didn't say I don't know how to handle myself hand to hand (and I do have momentum and Inertia on my side at my size) but I don't see paying to take a class specifically on disarming an armed bad guy as a valuable use of my time or money. You can be plenty proficient in hand to hand combat w/o knowing how to strip a firearm from an armed assailant and I think some in this thread are losing focus of that. If he's armed and I am I'm looking for an opportunity to neutralize the threat with my firearm which will do the job just as well as my bare hands... probably better. That's the only point I'm trying to make here. If you have endless resources (money and time) then go right ahead. I think we're getting a bit ahead of ourselves to say that this is critical training we must all have. It's not.

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Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

Are we still talking about CCW? [hammer]

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Ellephino.

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Originally Posted by mcantar18c

Never bring a gun to a knife fight.

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Agree to disagree I guess.

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Originally Posted by Jer

Agree to disagree I guess.

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Food for thought...
http://blog.suarezinternational.com/...l#.VFPxYsnD_qA

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Originally Posted by Jer

I get the saying but you're missing the point. Instead of a hammer maybe I should have said Leatherman. It won't do any one job better than the individual tool but it will do good enough to get me out of 99.99% of situations. Sure I could get each tool individually and learn to use it extensively so I'm a pro with it in case that task ever comes along but if it starts taking time from learning to use the Leatherman or brings a moment of hesitation when normally I'd just reach for the Leatherman.... there is a downside to adding all those additional tools. Also, I didn't say I don't know how to handle myself hand to hand (and I do have momentum and Inertia on my side at my size) but I don't see paying to take a class specifically on disarming an armed bad guy as a valuable use of my time or money. You can be plenty proficient in hand to hand combat w/o knowing how to strip a firearm from an armed assailant and I think some in this thread are losing focus of that. If he's armed and I am I'm looking for an opportunity to neutralize the threat with my firearm which will do the job just as well as my bare hands... probably better. That's the only point I'm trying to make here. If you have endless resources (money and time) then go right ahead. I think we're getting a bit ahead of ourselves to say that this is critical training we must all have. It's not.

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I think we're on the same page here. I carry on a daily basis. I also have some kind of knife on my person whenever I am awake and upright. I don't think spending a lot of time(and money) on learning disarming techniques that aren't useful in other scenarios is particularly beneficial, but learning the basics of redirecting the firearm/knife/broken bottle and using leverage to neutralize it is not a bad thing. The actual tool you use to defend yourself is irrelevant. YOU are the weapon, the rest is situational.

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Originally Posted by mcantar18c

Food for thought...
http://blog.suarezinternational.com/...l#.VFPxYsnD_qA

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Read it & he proved my point when the author said he was a life-long martial artist obsessed w/knives. I also concluded that if I'm ever attacked in a bathroom stall (LOL) I may have a more difficult fight on my hand. Allegedly. I never said I assumed a knife attacker wouldn't know how to use the knife I merely pointed out the fact that he brought a knife to a gun fight & will surely die. The closer he is the quicker he will die. If some knife wielding ninja somehow sneaks up on me in a locked stall I'll get a few shots center mass to illicit effect & then barrel stuff his forehead if he gets close enough. There isn't much a knife can do that a gun can't other than doing it quietly. There's a WHOLE lot that a gun can do that a knife can't however.

I carry a knife too (two most days) but I doubt a situation will ever present itself where I reach for it as a weapon over a firearm. Seems silly to me. I carry a flashlight & could probably kill someone with it too with enough motivation but why handicap myself? If a threat presents itself my goal is to end the threat as quickly as possible. I'm not looking to match force to force to make it an epic Hollywood battle that, after 15min, I come out victorious as some kind of hero.

The toolbox analogy is something I quite like.

Practical example, if I go out to Stellenbosch (a student town just North of where I live in the Strand) and I am accosted by one or two "bergies" (vagrants), it is probably a good idea to have some proper OC on my person at the time. Most of them are unarmed, and they are generally drunk and a nuisance, so it wouldn't warrant escalating straight to deadly force. I would have to fill in paperwork with the local popo if I pull a gun on him. If the bergie pulls a knife, though, or corners me that I can't get away from him...different story, and forget the OC.

I suppose what I am trying to say, is that to me it is not about proportionality of force (never believed in it), but rather as to what is appropriate for the specific situation.

Ill just leave this here. It's a video but I cant get it to imbed


http://activeselfprotection.com/blog...rk-real-world/