Very little info right now.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...in-dayton-ohio
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Very little info right now.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...in-dayton-ohio
9 dead, 26 wounded.
AR used.
I'm not a conspiracy theorist but.....
My first thought after WTF.Quote:
Originally Posted by BPTactical
I thought this was going to be about the time the National Guard killed people exercising their 1st Amendment rights.
Agree, these shootings are very suspicious. Somebody's pulling puppet strings.Quote:
Originally Posted by BPTactical
https://www.foxnews.com/health/ohio-...lope-some-fear
Maybe he was denied a city job for smoking...
NRA imploding, gun lobby is weak right now
Dems have shitty candidates and debates have been dismal, none are capable of ousting Trump
Force Trump to act on substantial gun control, he will lose a marked portion of his voting bloc
2 shootings (Gilroy & El Paso) utilize virtually identical weapons (WASR 10, underfolder and fixed)
El Paso shooter travels 600 miles to do his deed and leaves anti immigrant manifesto
Ohio shooting takes place less than 24 hours after El Paso incident
Once is an occurence
Twice is a coincidence
Thrice is fucky
You know what they say about threes.....
They're terrible.
(inappropriate time for a dad joke, I know)
I think we can drop the repeat conspiratory rhetoric, can't we? Unless we're trying to get our entertainment from Irving.
As with any other ill founded realm of tin foil, ask yourself: How much human resources would it take to undertake such a thing, and how much risk would they be exposed to by doing it?
Remember, two people or more working on something and you're guaranteed some millennial's going to blab about it on twitter. The risk they would be exposed to would be the total, permanent loss of their platform. Nope, it's not a conspiracy.
Simple mathematics (even ignoring the psychology of copycats etc.) will inevitably result in any random numerical set exhibiting some clustering. And ever day of the year is close to another day of the year, and things have to be scheduled on days. Who knew.
I wish everyone would stop politicizing these and we'd just repeatedly brain-scan the surviving shooters until they got stage 4 cancer.
^^^
Dont you dare throw logic and rational reasoning into this!
I just went to Sam's Club and got 5 rolls of heavy duty Reynolds Wrap for $2.
1) NRA's own fault. Once they started wading into the culture war bullshit more than absolutely necessary they turned themselves from a disliked lobbying group that democratic politicians in more moderate areas had to be wary of and pay some lip service to (or at least lip service to gun rights) into an enemy that will cost them votes and donations if they're seen as cozy with at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by BPTactical
2). Your opinion. I'm guessing if you asked a lot of democrats they're liking some of their options. Remember how insane the 2016 republican primary was before writing them off.
3) Trump has already unilaterally taken anti-gun action and has made repeated anti-2A comments when it suits him. "Take the guns then due process", silencers, bump stocks, etc. Gun voters seem perfectly fine to write this off and keep supporting him.
4) AKs and ARs are generally what people use for these massacres for the same reason they (and their descendants or variants) are used for military, law enforcement, and home defense. We can pretend all we want that this guy could do the same thing with an SKS or one of those old semi-auto Remington hunting rifles, but any nefarious action or even normal three gun competition shows that the AR/AK platforms are what someone would be most successful with. Claiming this as a conspiracy point would be similar to making a point if the three shooters drove a Camry, a Corolla, and an Accord, when they're some of the most common vehicles on the road.
5) Wonder if the last several years of increasingly demonizing immigrants (especially on the southern border), blaming them for our societal ills, and using them to inspire fear as a way to deflect someones base away from unconformable other topics might have something to do with a similarly minded nutjob driving hours to a border town to carry out his murder spree rather than doing it in his community?
I'm using this as a place for a general discussion rather than anything personally directed. It's much easier for people to believe there is some massive democratic/conspiracy rather than that there are people, some of whom take inspiration from a political movement you may or may not support, that need very little pushing to do something truly evil. Truth is, democrats don't need more shootings to pass gun laws where/when they take power. We've done an absolutely terrible job as gun owners with outreach or trying to keep guns as their own thing rather than just something to be lumped in with abortion, tax cuts, and other republican issues. If they have the support to get elected, they have the support to get the bills passed.
Something being connected doesn't mean it has to be a "massive" conspiracy. A half dozen people who have never met but communicate in a private online chat room could plan to do something bad without anyone else ever knowing they discussed it. Did it happen here? Maybe not likely but we'll never know. The point is it does happen.
Look at the flash mobs that rob Walgreens? Dozens of kids show up to rob the place at the same time. No one knows it going to happen and I've never heard of anyone figuring out who was the master minds. Happens somewhat frequently. Why is it so hard to believe that murders just might plan together too?
You really think the nut job in El Paso never chatted with like minded individuals online? Do you really think it's unlikely he never said "I'm going to do something about it" to his group of like minded individuals? Do you really think it's impossible he never said "you should too" to those same people? Do you really think there aren't people somewhere online saying "let's do this, it will force changes"...? There are people just like him out there.
Connected doesn't mean conspiracy.
Are these connected? Who knows. But it shouldn't be so easily dismissed.
An observation as well: Per capita, the rates of mass casualty incidents* in Asian countries is substantially lower than our own. Their rate of anti-personality disorder is also substantially lower. So do Asians have the best jeans? Well, some of them look pretty nice in jeans, but no. When the same Asian people(s) live in America, they have the same rate of anti-personality disorder we do.
To that degree, it can be attributed almost entirely to differences in broad culture. And I STRONGLY recommend people research for themselves the differences between US and CH culture as an example, because it cannot be not boiled down to "those red bastards" nor can it be called inferior. Here's some examples:
In China:
1) They have incredibly strong familial bonds with their parents, which exceed all other relationships. If I give you a scenario, and say "a van full of your parents, siblings, and your beautiful wife veers off a bridge and into a river. Who do you save first?".
The American answers "my spouse"
The Zhōnggu? r?n answers "my mother" and is disgusted by the American's response.
2) They have no retirement system, you depend on your kid(s) for retirement. That is the driving force for their educational drive and prowess, and the parents invest everything they can muster for their kids success. Conversely, In America, school is mostly about independence, fashion and friends.
3) Parents can sue their children if their children fail to visit or provide that support.
3) Chinese people don't give trophy's for participation (unless the kid is some special member of the communist party). They don't value "self esteem" and "ego". They value collectivism, e.g. "what can you do for (your village) or (your country)."
4) They also don't screw around. For instance, a U.S. tourist's camera was stolen while aboard a train. They stopped the train, searched passengers until they found the camera, and then pulled the suspect off and shot him.
5) Yet, on the side note, they also overlook almost everything. Laws prohibit all kinds of stuff in china, including the way most of their commerce and shops presently operate. Low level scams are far more abundant there than here, and there's little enforcement or even reporting.
Obviously, not all of the differences are good, #3 is probably the biggest influence for reduced rates of the types of disorders that produce psychopaths. It's likely that they have the same genetic rates, they just present differently because their culture doesn't value entitled narcissists and shitheads very much. Here, we idolize that type as the perfect example of the American dream.
Even that can be relatively well dismissed. There's little doubt that online activity can "radicalizes" the extremist of all types, but not in a tight conspiracy way. The probability of any kind of computer activity eventually getting discovered - at least after the fact - is almost all but guaranteed. I'm only aware of a single example of a suspect that could be alleged to have the skill and resources to pull off the digital work necessary to go dark (the Las Vegas shooter). It's not easy. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but yeah, it means that for 99.9999% of the public, if you do something, they will have your search history going back to 1995, together with pretty much all your online activity, and will be able to track the Nigerian scammer down that messaged you in 1998 if they want to.Quote:
Originally Posted by hollohas
Quote:
Originally Posted by OxArt
Actually i'll disagree with this. You can get an antifa mob within an hours time . Between tweets, and other social media, it happens when the opposing team is waiting for the call. IMO it's pre-planned and takes off from there. Look at these spontaneous anti trump protest after the election. Full color posters, pink hats etc. There's an overt attempt to unseat the administration as well as push as tough a gun confiscation as possible. before the 2020 election
Hell the antifa crowd is ready to rock in Tx as we type. They've issued a call to action nationwide. Under the banner of Stop Racism and Facisim.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/texas-lt-...080400708.html
ILLEGAL immigrants have been openly discussed in a negative way since the 1980s. Probably earlier but I'm not old enough to recall.Quote:
Originally Posted by waffles
Don't fall for that "immigrant hate" narrative. It's always been illegal immigrants because they do have a profoundly negative impact on the US and a greater negative impact on economically fragile communities. They create a subclass that is economically and politically exploited--don't even think for a second this is humanitarian. And you'd be dishonest to try and dispute any of this.
Mexican nationals shopping at a Walmart here is fine. American nationals shopping in Mexico is fine. No serious person is upset about that.
The Left's plan to through open the borders and replace US citizens is the difference. Never before have we had major mainstream candidates openly state there should be no borders, social programs for all (using our paychecks), and actively work to defraud Americans of "democratic" self-determination. Those same people want the ideas that wrecked these home nations here in the US, imposed on all of us. This is why there is no effort to integrate and assimilate.
Legal = assimilation
Illegal = no assimilation
How does anyone address this and keep it all positive?
I don't personally blame illegals, btw. I blame the politicians/judges (birthright citizenship).
Yes, culture/values.Quote:
Originally Posted by OxArt
But China isn't a good example of what I'd want. 60,000,000 people murdered, forced abortions, buried-alive/left for dead baby girls, prison organ harvesting (alive)... Yeah, I can call that inferior.
Japan is interesting but then they have the suicide problem and associated "lost generation." And let's not forget WWII and our protection since.
You want strong families and high investment in children, you don't have to look to Asia. We had that here in the US until the Boomer Libs' sexual revolution. We had guns over the mantle, in the back of pickups. We had guns for sale in the hardware stores, no age limits/BGCs. We didn't have mass shootings.
Most families (of all backgrounds) sat in the pews on Sunday. Dad worked a solid week. Mom was always there. No fault divorce wasn't a thing. Drug war wasn't a thing. We fought and won two world wars with that culture. Industrial revolution, creation of middle class, even the founding of this nation as a Republic, all with that culture.
I find it hard to compare the US to any contemporary nation that isn't facing a long-running demoralization effort by Libs now using an outgroup. This is fairly unique to us as it's been going on for decades. Usually, in history, it comes to blows and is recorded as a revolution/civil war (depending on the outcome). Someone loses, someone wins, and it's settled.
Every generation pulls at the mores of the earlier. I doubt there hasn't been a time in the last two thousand years that the status quo hasn't been under attack by the equivalent of "liberals". I also don't elevate Chinese culture, beyond our own, but awareness beyond our border helps to better understand what's wrong, and it's not just mere liberals. I think even down to the foundation way we do early learning is highly flawed. The way we teach children is screwed from the inset, based on ancient crap logic. [Don't do bad things, cause the god/santa/elf/NSA is watching you!] as opposed to developing, you know, empathy. And I'm not attacking religion there, it can coexist with an empathy strategy, but almost nobody teaches it in that fashion. It's rather bizarre that we teach children here not to be bad because they might get caught. When they test it, and find out they don't get caught, well... there goes that strategy.
How many Americans even know what critical actions in early child development form empathy? I'm pretty sure less than 1%.
It's also easy to get nostalgic and think things were better in the past, but we still had mass killings and much of the underlying issues then (they just didn't guarantee as much media infamy, so the occurrence was slightly less often, and fewer shitheads had the idea). Things weren't better in the "good ol days" nor have they ever been, it's just different. Every generation waxes and wanes with new problems.
ETA: To answer the empathy question, I intend to do a long writeup in the future. In a TLDR way: Expressing empathy to babies and young toddlers is very, very, very important. I cannot express it enough. They learn to mimic it from you and then it becomes real after that. What some people think is "babying" or spoiling is a key component to the earliest child developing independent empathy, and once the milestones pass, the ability to develop real empathy (e.g. also a well developed conscience) largely goes away and becomes impossible. Babies that have very little human contact in infancy or get their attachment screwed up end up with huge cascading effects in their lifetime, a large reason why a lot of adopted kids from certain places are never "right". If your marriage sucks when you have a newborn, SUCK IT UP BUTTERCUP. People think it's okay to divorce around young babies because they won't remember it. yet, it's the period of their life (attachment) that it'll actually f' them up the most.
So, if you want good kids, don't bother with elf-on-the-shelf bullshit. Baby the crap out of them when they are babies, give them exaggerated emotional support for their owies and tears when they're little, and then exaggerate your owies so they mirror and express the same for you. BOOM. There's a kid that will never murder someone else, and they're on the road to being very polite and caring with almost no effort on your part.
This is obviously very, very complex and I can't just sum it up in a paragraph, but just passing it along for parents with very young kids who aren't aware of this now.
ETA 2:) Also with very young babies, I'm not an advocate of letting them "cry it out" unless absolutely necessary (e.g. parent is running on bare threads). Sure, they develop some empathy with some attachment and some empathy expressed to them. So no, letting them cry it out isn't going to make them start whacking people indiscriminately. But because the window to develop this is so freaking small, and the period is so important, why not maximize the opportunity and mileage in developing their empathy. Giving them comfort and support when they are crying is how they learn to feel. Don't worry about spoiling, psychologically, it's impossible to spoil a young baby. You can use the cry-it-out stuff and other techniques when they are just a little older.
People will always find a way. Immigrants in Germany and all over the UK are killing people almost daily. Just yesterday I saw one where there was an argument from roommates, the Syrian guy took a huge sword (like the style you see in the movie Aladdin) stabbed the roommate multiple times in the street then hacked his arm off and fled.
Knife attacks are up in huge numbers there.
Or people getting pushed in front of trains.
It’s the mental state of people who somehow think this stuff is ok or justified
Sometimes I think the mental state of those people is that the consequences really just don’t matter or apply to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper7
AGREEQuote:
Originally Posted by Hummer
Is this cognitive dissonance or what you tell yourself so you can sleep better at night?Quote:
Originally Posted by OxArt
There?s wearing the tinfoil hat to keep them from reading your thoughts, and there is wearing the tinfoil to keep out anything that causes cognitive dissonance.
Have you ever researched when the term ?conspiracy theory? became widely used in the english language?
How many people work at the military, fbi, cia, nsa, etcetera without leaking classified info?
What are the odds of being in one mass shooting event, let alone people being present in multiple mass shooting events in different states? Or even in the same city at the same time of an event to be interviewed about it?
Shooters in therapy / on psychotropic drugs?
Ever pay attention to what else is going on in the news cycle politically that they might want to distract from?
There?s more to some of these events than just coincidence.
Good & Evil are real.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Facebook and Instagram are reporting extreme outages of processing ability.
I'm surprised by the overwhelming anti-gun control comments on the local news channel's pages on these stories. Anti gunners are being attacked with logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by BushMasterBoy
Maybe because FB is for old out of touch white men now?
You know those times when you don't want to say something out loud because you know it sounds insane and its not grounded in any logic at all, but you just "feel" like it's correct? And then you say it out loud?Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehaus
First, select aspects of my response is obviously tongue in cheek, such as one out of two. [facepalm]If there is any connection, it will come out. It's almost impossible for the average "citizen" to go dark online. They don't have the skills. The mathematical chance of there being any connection is ever so slightly above zero. Every time you guys come out of the wood works swearing its a conspiracy, just as the left comes out of the wood works swearing its about guns. The ratio of both sides being correct is about 0%, thus far. And no, even on the national level, we don't keep secrets terribly well. Some individuals do. Some don't. Example A: Congress. Most of the ones that do leak it obviously don't run to the press, they share something with someone close to them. It's still a leak. It just doesn't "escape". The difference is, when stabby McStab Stanley leaks something to someone else, and he goes and stabby stabs a bunch of people, those people are pretty motivated to share information. Via one method or another.
And on the level of millennial aged angst shooters? Yeah, sure, a whole group of them can totally maintain better secure comms than the US Gov' and resist investigative manipulation better than our trained agents without any education or personal experience. Those skills just pop out of nowhere. Can you people hear yourselves?
As far as your chances, 12.7% of the US population took SSRI's in the last month, by example. If we take a mass shootings at a large music festival..say like the one in Las Vegas with 22,000 people in attendance, that is 1:14,363 American's that was "at" that single mass shooting. If there was only one other shooting in the history of our country, and it was also a music festival; on average between one to two people would have been at the prior "mass shooting". In reality, because people who like things tend to do those things more often than other people who don't like those things, you'd probably see 10-15+ people from the prior "mass shooting" at another "mass shooting" of a music festival that size. I'm not going to spend my life debunking the rest of your mathematical assertion because it's not grounded in any logic. Between hundreds to many thousands of people "are part", e.g. witness each shooting, so yes, several of them will statistically be involved in others.
Some people have also survived two helicopter crashes in under 24 hours. But yet, your odds of your helicopter crashing are phenomenally low. CONSPIRACY
It's ironic that almost every mass killer thinks they are "good" in their minds eye. Each side of a war generally thinks they are the "good" guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehaus
Maybe "Good" and "Evil" are just concepts, hmm?
Personality disorders are real.
Empathy is real.
Kindness is real.
Murder is real.
"Good" and "Evil" are not "real", they are mere concepts in the eye of the individual beholder and the judge; to which segments of society often roughly agree on what constitutes "good" and "bad".
Quote:
Originally Posted by OxArt
I?m old enough to remember Operation Fast and Furious. I think a lot of us knew what was up with that story as soon as it broke, or at least our guts did. That story was widely reported on, and still was swept under the rug. You?d have a hard time convincing me that some of the most public individuals in this country didn?t engage in a conspiracy to enact gun control by creating a problem of gun violence to be publicized and politicized.
The thing with talk about conspiracy theories is that one day, there WILL be something that fits the mold and is found out. Statistics work that way as well. All it takes is the validity of a single event to cast all others into doubt. That's all fine and well, except it isn't, because it distorts how people look at what's really happening, and distracts from ever making a real attempt at getting to the root of what is going on.
I think that we've unfortunately entered a period in history where indiscriminate shooting of the public has become a popular fad. Everyone is too busy trying to pound these events into their own special mold to use as propaganda to drive the political changes that they want, that the actual issue, and whether it can even be remedied, is being completely ignored.
Nothing, nothing , is ever black and white, so any suggestion that begins with, "It's simple, just do X and Y won't happen." Is irresponsibly lazy and an insult to the problem itself and especially those affected by it. That goes for immigration, public shootings, vaccines, NASA, climate change, etc.
Just on face value, creating a gun problem to help a political gun control campaign by giving guns to another country seems like quite the long way around. Like selling China all our top secret coal mining Intel to influence environmental policies at home.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAK
I could apply almost all of those points to the fall out from my last romantic relationship...Quote:
Originally Posted by Irving
There is a lot of systematic corruption inside our government, as in any other. However, when considering whether or not to give a conspiracy theory any credibility, one needs to consider the human capital needed to invest into it, against the possibility of leaks, against the risk if it is leaked.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAK
Fast & Furious involved many several law enforcement professionals under a directive to let firearms be smuggled into Mexico to try to track and take out higher levels of the smuggling operation. That is an objective that even a lot of conservative law enforcement professionals are REALLY familiar with. You let some drugs get passed around the community and don't arrest the informant on the corner, because you want the big guys. That objective could have masked a second, tertiary political motive.
Now, lets talk about some secret democrat conspiracy to brainwash young adult millennial with angst. How do they know the dudes going to go through with it? Shit, now they're going to need a suicide vest, because if he gets captured, he's not trained in investigative techniques and will tell them about Nancy Palosi's hidden underground bunker where they were in padded cells with speakers repeating "kill kill kill ar ar ar kill kill kill ar ar ar". And what is the risk if they get found out? Oh shit, the entire democratic party wouldn't survive that conspiracy!
It's also a lot harder to get people reliably behind "hey lets randomly get people and kids murdered". Funny, how that works.
Yeah. Can we stop. Use your heads. Why do I have to explain this? You people should be able to rule it out all by yourselves.
1) How much human capital would have to be invested.
2) What would be the possibility of leaks.
3) What other weaknesses would the conspiracy necessarily entail.
4) What would be the fallout if it's leaked.
5) How long could it go on before it's likely leaked.
Cognitive dissonance is believing this shit BECAUSE you want to believe it, BECAUSE it aligns with what you want to be true. Modifying your reality so you dismiss all logic and facts that disagree with your presumption. E.g. "well, people have TSC's, so clearly it's possible to have a huge conspiracy that's kept secret murdering people randomly".
Critical thinking is analyzing your initial thoughts, logically, as above.
I can't fix flawed logic any more than someone can fix a psychopath with a defective frontal cortex. So, for the people that don't get it.. [beatdeadhorse] sorry, not going to beat the horse anymore. And I do feel sorry for people who can't think beyond the confines of their presumptions.
Anyway, we're struggling so hard to even process what is happening that I had to go and click on the original article I posted for updates of what even happened.
Sounds like around 1am a guy was denied entry to a bar so he went and got a gun and stayed shooting people outside. Sounds like he tried to get into the bar but was stopped at the door, gun taken from him, and shot. I don't know the specifics but it seems like that's what people are reporting.
Perhaps interestingly, Asian-Americans have lower violence rates than the rest of America, but on demographic basis they are over-represented in mass shootings.Quote:
Originally Posted by OxArt
https://www.motherjones.com/politics...nes-full-data/
I think the point, if there is any, is:
A) Stop trying to find all the reasons you can rely on to believe what you innately agree with.
B) Instead, consider the reasons, facts, and perspectives about why you shouldn't believe what you innately agree with.
Here, it seems like the innate thought would stray away from conspiracies, but that's not how the human mind works. You don't like the idea that people just up and murder people just like you, for no reason, and no warning. Even if you know it's true.
But you DO LIKE THE IDEA OF IT DEMONIZING THE OTHER GUYS.
Until people get good at the latter (B); they'll always been manipulated sheep, just of a different color than THE OTHER GUYS.
7 out of 113 in that? Asians are 5.6% of the population, that data set shows they are involved in 6.1% of the USA* based events in that list. On such a low set, I don't think the half a percent is of significance, but if it ever appeared in a larger set it would be of sociological interest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rucker61
Just read an unconfirmed report that a 223 AK was used in Ohio.
Conspiracy?
Maybe, maybe not.
But I do feel that there is a certain faction of society that will stop at nothing to attain control and further their agenda.
I put nothing beyond them.
0%? Are you sure about that?Quote:
Originally Posted by OxArt
Your view on leaks not coming directly from politicians seems to be very naive.Quote:
Originally Posted by OxArt
https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...s-press-214367
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...c27445c3bd.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by OxArt
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Dude murdered his sister
https://kdvr.com/2019/08/04/ohio-sho...ong-9-victims/
The weird is off the charts
MoveOn and WomansMarch started laying the groundwork before the election. I've had a falling out with my associates connected to these organizations but I have a strong suspicion these and similarly minded organizations have only ramped up their rhetoric since January 2017. Think "prayer chains" on social media.Quote:
Originally Posted by Great-Kazoo
There are a lot of people out there in very dark places. They know they are in dark places. They have largely given up on trying to find a way out of these places and have come to embrace the darkness.Quote:
Originally Posted by OxArt
At this point in time I don't think a "conspiracy" in the terms we think of is required. There are enough unhinged people out there that with just the right triggering by different social media groups somebody will go and do something very bad. These people are isolated and feel their only connection with others is through Facebook, Instagram, etc. As for the "certain faction of society" mentioned above, they don't care how many people get hurt or on "who's side" they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by BPTactical
See the above reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by BushMasterBoy
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAK
That's a very good point!
It isn't all that difficult to see all the deliberate anti-American propaganda that is being used to whip up all the constant hysteria and the tensions they are manufacturing with their propaganda through the main streram media, social media, and their entertainment.
The left and some of their leaders have been consistently calling for their useful iditos to go out and engauge in acts violence against normal people for a while now. Some of them are at it on an almost daily basis incase y'all haven't noticed.
Just a conspiracy theory my a$$...