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I've been thinking about how many of us boycott business that don't allow CCW but yet it's accepted that gunshows ban CCW (at least to the point where they make your gun unable to fire). I can understand that weapons brougth to be sold need to be disabled, but why do we allow this in regards to CCW? If anyone has a good answer to this I'd certainly like to hear it because I can't figure it out.
Thanks.
[Kick3]
I'm guessing it has to do with the insurance the promoters have for the shows.
According to the SERTOMA group that runs half of the shows at the Phil Long Expo, it is insurance related per the Phil Long Expo management. They have stated that their insurance policy makes an exception for bonded security guards, but not everyone in the general public. At least that is the reason they have given for not allowing it during gun shows there.
What I don't understand is that there is no permanent signage in place, only the temporary signs they use during the gun shows. When I go to the home shows there I don't see signs up and no one asks me if I am armed? What's the difference? If the insurance policy says no then it should be no for all events and not just gun shows.
Or maybe it really isn't the insurance???
It's also at the Tanner Gun Show. If it is the insurance, what does that say about the fundemental arguement that we are a safer society with 2nd Ammendment rights. I don't get the contradiction, and you would think that those apposed to our right to bear arms would put this up as a great example. I can walk into Gander, Bass Pro shops, etc.. without any signs (at least that I've seen) prohibiting CCW.
[Bang]
The insurance on the building is different than the insurance for the vendors. It very likely IS an insurance issue. Not patronizing won't really change anything because the insurance company doesn't care and would rather not write a risk like that in the first place.
Don't kid yourself, insurance companies stay in business by writing risk. As the risk rises so does their premium.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart
Given the occurances of at least 2 negligent discharges at gun shows in the last year by people that chose to ignore the rules, I gotta side with the show promotors. The first was some yahoo that was supposedly a firearms instructor at the Tanner show that couldn't resist the temptation to fiddle with his carry piece, and discharged a round into the floor. The second was at a show in Loveland, and I don't remember the details, but I do remember it was a vendor. In theory, someone with a CCW permit should be knowledgeable and conscientious enough to avoid a ND, but in reality, this is not always the case. I have no issue with zip tying my carry piece at the show, although I did take issue with the Crossroads show wanting me to unload my magazines and leave my ammo in the car, just because it's a PITA to load/unload 2 15 round mags.
They stay in business writing risks when nothing happens. No insurance company is going to worry about missing out on $5,000 because the show fell into obscurity because no one patronized it. The people who host the special event could probably find someone to write the risk and not have any crap about no CCW, but not without substantial increase in premium cost, which will just be passed to the patrons anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by kidicarus13
I guess the issue is which would people prefer?
Paying $25 cover to browse mixed nuts and chinese holsters, in an environment with only a few more negligent discharges (we have to be honest) while carrying.
Or
Paying $6 cover to browse mixed nuts and Chinese holsters, with a few less NDs and your gun in the car.
Personally, the gun show isn't nearly awesome enough for me to care (others may feel differently), and since it is a private business decision, and not a local, state, or federal government issue, then I don't feel like my rights are all that threatened.
That's just my take on it though.
Yes there is risk, yes there are dumn asses out there, but is that really much different then any place else that allows CCW and specifically places that deal in firearms? Not only does it feel completely hypocritical, but wouldn't it also be a tremendous liability to pro-rights people by banning CCW at a gun show...
I sent an email to the Tanner Gun Show asking them about this so we'll see what their PC people can come up with for an answer. Sorry to drag this out but I really try to stay away from places that don't allow CCW and this is a burr in my sadle.
Sturtle.. I mean Stuart - what's the deal with the name change. Is it a new kinder, gentler you? [ROFL2]
I don't agree with the rule by any means, but I suppose I could see their logic a little. You'd probably have people carrying that normally don't. Also some people would carry open who never carry. With all those accessories and goodies they would want to try out the light on their pistol or a holster etc. thus pulling out their loaded guns and not being safe with them. The rule makers probably say, where there are many guns and much ammo there is a higher-than-normal propensity for accidental discharges.
I've been at a gun show when a gun did go off. Didn't see it or hear anything more than the shot itself. I guess it's possible it was something else... IDK
I think they're banning "loaded firearms" more than CCW.
Who's dumb enough to make a "disturbance" at a gun show.
I don't get much kinder or gentler. ;) I was sick of Sturtle, and even though it is never taken on boards, Stu isn't usually either. I know eerw was here before I was and his name is stu as well.
Usually I'd totally agree with you goldfinger, because you can conceal carry in a Wal-mart and be surrounded by (incredibly) even more morons than at the gun show. The difference is that all those morons are looking at diapers and swifer mops instead of seeing who can make up the best fictional Billy Badass story to impress strangers that they'll never see again (unless they both go to the same emergency room).
The way I look at it, is if everyone that attends a gun show, was instead attending an orgy, would you want them all wearing condoms?
I would agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart
One could easily argue that even with the stupid rules, people still manage to fire their guns. That just goes to show the level of irresponsibility and stupidity it takes to have an ND at a gun show in the first place. While no amount of rules, or even laws will prevent the dummies from acting like dummies, that is no reason to get rid of all the rules and just encourage the dummies to act like dummies.
There is a thread on another board about not patronizing gun shops that don't allow CCW, and that is something that is easier to fight by just shopping else where.
[LOL] I don't even like to use the toilets after some people.... This is too funny!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart
I haven't seen a gun shop up here that prohibits CCW.... Most say unload all weapons.... CCW excludedQuote:
Originally Posted by Stuart
[quote=rhineoshott;148495]I think they're banning "loaded firearms" more than CCW.
Just to be clear here is an excerpt from the FAQ on the Tanner Gun Show:
2) I have a concealed carry permit. Am I allowed to bring my gun in?
You may bring your gun in but it must be unloaded and checked by security at the admissions desk and the firing mechanism tied. Absolutely NO loaded guns are allowed in the show. This includes concealed carry permit holders
With all stated in this thread and the further research I've done today, I can sorta see where they're coming from. It's a unique setting where there is a mass of people, it's generally accepted to draw a weapon for fitting, parts, etc... Kind of the "perfect storm" for a ND. I still think it does not benefit all of us trying to promote the responsible exercise of 2nd Ammendment, but with the gun show it may be a necessary evil.
Personally, I'll probably stay away from the gun show and stick to my principals on this. It's not like k-12 schools where I don't really have a choice since I have kids that attend them, but that's a whole other rant.
[Rant1]
My personal feeling is that the "no loaded" guns policy is very far down on a list of reasons why NOT to go to the gun show.
Ok Stu, there's where we'll have to disagree. IMO they're essentially relieving you of your 2nd ammendment rights, you have a reasonable choice to go or not, so what would be a good reason NOT to go? Just saying, it's a slippery slope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart
[Beer]
I am saying that I don't go to a lot of gun shows.
They aren't re leaving you of your second amendment right, because it is not a public event. It is a private venue that you have to pay just to enter. They can do whatever they want. If you don't like it, then you can choose not to go (which is what you are saying). I'm just pointing out that not going isn't going to change anything because it is a third party (insurance company) that is making the decision, and their share of any profits isn't large enough for them to change their mind. They could take it or leave it.
I was saying that I don't really go to gun shows, because I've found much better deals on boards like this one, and I don't have to deal with vendors that pretend to be super secret commandos, or vendors that are normal people, but have to deal with so many fudds in one day that they automatically assume that I'm a fudd and treat me as such (maybe I am though). So I guess I'm already on your side, because I don't generally go anyway.
I may be way off on this but anyone here think of this concept....
Concealed is concealed?
Just saying[Evil]
I wouldn't publicly agree with you. [Beer]Quote:
Originally Posted by DD977GM2
Just stating that concealed means concealed. Nothing more, nothing less or infered.[Coffee]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart
I have to agree with Stu on this one. If it is held on private property, then it is the property owner's decision. I may not agree, but I will respect it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart
What I'm more concerned about however, is the message being sent to the general public. If operators of a gun show don't trust CCW holders to carry their weapons loaded... Then, well, you guys can see where I'm going with this.
I haven't been to a Denver gunshow in years, but the ones in the Springs have been pretty lame for a long time.
The Tanner and the Crossroads are a jipp anyways. I was walking my toddler in his stroller when that idiot shot a round off. Have not been back since. However the shows are a rippoff, I am not aware of any deals or anything to be had at them that you cant get somewhere else for less and in better shape. Heck made me laugh when people there were selling the basic PTR 91s for 1700 dollars after I just bought the same model for 1000.
Exactly why I refuse to go to gun shows anymore. They can keep their overpriced junk anyway.
It is about insurance and risk. Two AD's in one year proves the point.
The venues require the show promoter supply insurance. The math tells the insurance companies that the risk is elevated due to the potential of a loaded gun. Two AD's in the last year prove the math. As a result, insurance rates go up. Remove the loaded guns and the "risk" appears to go down to the insurance company. It's really simple math and economics. Keep in mind that no insurance means no shows.
It's sorta like the gas in your car. Low risk, until you take the gas for 1,000 cars and store it at one location... a gas station. The risk of a substantial accident goes up, therefore the cost to insure goes up. It's a well known issue within the insurance industry.
We can argue about all the politics, but having spent time on the fringe of the insurance industry and being ok at math, their logic really does make sense.
I was 20 feet away from the last AD at the Tanner show. I am sure that I am biased as a result, but as a CWP holder I see the logic and would find it difficult to argue for loaded weapons at the show, at least from the insurance companies standpoint.
I have mixed feelings, after the two NDs, not ADs, but NDs....I can see why they don't want loaded weapons and for good reason. I know we all want to have a weapon in case something goes down, but I would have to say the risk of someone coming in to go on a killing spree is extremely limited due to the nature of the show.
It is one thing for a guy to walk into an unarmed school with maybe a couple police officers and the rest several minutes away, but considering the guns are right on the table for everyone to grab to nail the guy, the fact that a lot of people have a lot of hand to hand combat training, or that the way the guns are secured are pretty easy to undo, load and then you are good to go. plus there are police with loaded guns.
I like carrying and I would much rather carry CCW but when you go to a gun show you get the urge to handle weapons, check them out play with them and maybe forget to double check every single one to be loaded. you accidently grab a loaded gun or your own and forget to check, hand it to a guy because you have the intention to trade it and BAM.
Like I said I have mixed feelings. I would personally rather carry CCW but given the location and circumstances as well as insurance and everything else I can see why it could me more of a burden and risk than a benefit.
IT is kind of BS, but seriously, what could happen to you at a gun show that you would need your CCW gun for? I mean, someone would have to be seriously retarted to try to rob someone or something else, etc...
They might know of the no loaded guns rule and think it is like a school or something. Personally, I think the person who'd shoot at an armed criminal in a crowded cafeteria like that, would be nearly as stupid as the guy trying to rip off guns. Maybe it's just because there is no way I'd trust my own skills at this time though.
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Originally Posted by ryanek9freak
I'm beginning to understand the policy on gunshows, but in general I think criminals are not known for their brilliance and wouldn't discount the possibility because "no one could be that stupid".