Need Help: .308 FTF

I'm starting into reloading using .308.

Background:
Bought Once Fired LC Military Brass
Tumbled, decapped, cleaned primer pockets.
Loaded 5 rnd groups w/ 40.0 to 46.0 grains H4895
Primed w/ Winchester WLRM (Winchester Large Rifle Magnum primers) new from Sportmans's (seated until primer would not move any more; just below top of primer pocket)
Used Lee Pacesetter Dies
M80 Pulled Bullets
OAL = Did not exceed 2.81"

Issue:
Tried in my Springfield M1A (only about 100 rounds through it; never had a FTF before)
About 50% FTF.
Saw a firing pin mark, no different than what I see with commercial ammo or the ones that fired, in the primer of the FTF cartriges.

Suggestions:
Bad Primers? that many ?
Bad loading technique? (If so, What am I doing wrong?)
Primers too "hard" (Some have said I don't need Magnum; Others have said it should not matter for firing...just causes a bit less accuracy on the loads)
Problem w/ my rifle's firing group ?

Your help and direction is appreciated.

Sounds like bad batch of primers...try some CCIs or Remingtons, see if the issue disappears.

Fail to fire?

High primers? It seems unlikely with the M14 having firing pin to spare, but if the primers aren't seated all the way (usually about .005" below flush), the firing pin energy is used up seating them the rest of the way. You'll know if this is the problem, because if you chamber them again, they will go off.

Did you remove the primer pocket crimp?

Also - 2.810" seems a bit long. Not sure what bullet you're using, but I'm usually only 2.800" as a max for 168's, shorter for 150's (just to make sure there's good neck tension). Seems remote, but is it possible it isn't going into battery because you're oal is too long?

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Originally Posted by 20X11

Sounds like bad batch of primers...try some CCIs or Remingtons, see if the issue disappears.

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One vote for Bad Primers. Do we have someone to "second" the motion ?[Coffee]

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Originally Posted by Zombie Steve

Fail to fire?

High primers? It seems unlikely with the M14 having firing pin to spare, but if the primers aren't seated all the way (usually about .005" below flush), the firing pin energy is used up seating them the rest of the way. You'll know if this is the problem, because if you chamber them again, they will go off.

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I thought of that "not seated all the way" issue at the range. I re-chambered a few rounds 3 or 4 times with the same FTF.

I checked, by feeling them with my thumb to ensure there was a "dip down" when I ran my thumb over them. I did not measure, but I would expect if I felt a slight dip, it would be at LEAST 0.005" below flush.
I'll try putting a small metal straight edge on the bottom, holding them up to the light, and see if I see any light come through. That will at least tell me if they are flush or too high.

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Originally Posted by Zombie Steve

Did you remove the primer pocket crimp?

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I removed the crimp with a reamer that has a 45 degree tip. Maybe I did not cut away enough...I WAS worried about cutting too much off.
How can I tell how much is "enough" and how much is "too much"?

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Originally Posted by Zombie Steve

Also - 2.810" seems a bit long. Not sure what bullet you're using, but I'm usually only 2.800" as a max for 168's, shorter for 150's (just to make sure there's good neck tension). Seems remote, but is it possible it isn't going into battery because you're oal is too long?

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Good suggestion. I'll recheck my sources for the 2.81" stuff (or if you can point me to some info, I'd appreciate it).
The bullet is a pulled M80 147 grain. (I added that to the above description in the 1st post).
Maybe if they are too long, and hitting the lands when chambered, the energy from the firing pin is being used to "chamber" them the rest of the way, and the lands are cutting a small grove in the bullet tip. If I rechambered them, as I said above, it is not likely I'll align the lands to to "cuts" again, and I'll get the same results, but make more "cuts" from the lands.

How can I test this theory ?
Should I try to measure my chamber length ? If so, How?

Thanks for the Great Suggestions (send more, please) !!![Beer]

I'd be amazed if you're touching the lands, but maybe. Just look at a round that didn't fire and see if there are rifling marks on the bullet at the ogive.

I'd guess bad primers.

I'm gonna take a shot in the dark here but...have you pulled a bullet from the FTF cartridges and check to see if you have any powder in it? I've seen this before from a reloader that used to pull cases from the tray, charge them and return them to the tray. He lost track of where he was at and skipped an entire row, thus causing the FTF in multiple cartridges.

I have never experienced a bad batch of primers in over 10 years of reloading.

I'd definitely seat a M80 bullet deeper. You want as much of the bearing surface on the bullet in contact with as much as the neck as possible (don't forget the boat tail isn't touching anything). M14 actions are pretty violent. In general, the rule of thumb is you want to have at least one caliber width making contact with the neck (in your case, .308" touching... again, the boat tail doesn't count). They'll look strange, and not as cool as NATO rounds, but they'll behave better getting battered around in your action. If that means you can't crimp into the groove, so be it. Don't crimp. JMHO.


All that said, I don't think that's your problem. If you re-chambered and they didn't fire, it's not an issue with high primers.

My experience is the same as sabot... never had a batch of bad primers. Maybe I'm just lucky... but that could be it.

Just to be sure... you aren't one of those guys that oils his ammo or anything, are you? Any possible source of contamination from case lube?

Seems like if there was just no powder, you'd still pop the primer.

Lastly, are you sure you don't have your numbers mixed up? I thought James Bond shot .380, not .308.

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Originally Posted by sabot_round

I'm gonna take a shot in the dark here but...have you pulled a bullet from the FTF cartridges and check to see if you have any powder in it? I've seen this before from a reloader that used to pull cases from the tray, charge them and return them to the tray. He lost track of where he was at and skipped an entire row, thus causing the FTF in multiple cartridges.

I have never experienced a bad batch of primers in over 10 years of reloading.

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I'll check...
But even so, all I heard was a "click". Seems like a primer only would at least go "pop" and a charged cartridge "BANG". The range was not very crowded that day, so I would have been able to hear it through electronic ear muffs.

Thanks for the "shot" (pun intended) !!

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Originally Posted by Zombie Steve

I'd definitely seat a M80 bullet deeper. You want as much of the bearing surface on the bullet in contact with as much as the neck as possible (don't forget the boat tail isn't touching anything). M14 actions are pretty violent. In general, the rule of thumb is you want to have at least one caliber width making contact with the neck (in your case, .308" touching... again, the boat tail doesn't count). They'll look strange, and not as cool as NATO rounds, but they'll behave better getting battered around in your action. If that means you can't crimp into the groove, so be it. Don't crimp. JMHO.

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As they say when doing the Limbo, ...How low can you go ?
What would you recommend for MIN OAL for this?
(I'm OK with crimping it and NOT catching the cannilure)

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Originally Posted by Zombie Steve

All that said, I don't think that's your problem. If you re-chambered and they didn't fire, it's not an issue with high primers.

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Any basis for the WLRM primers possibly being too "hard" ? I wouldn't think so, for the M1A's military firing group though.

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Originally Posted by Zombie Steve

Just to be sure... you aren't one of those guys that oils his ammo or anything, are you? Any possible source of contamination from case lube?

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Cases were lubed before full length sizing, then primer pockets cleaned (RCBS wire brush-thing chucked in a Dremel till pockets shined). Retumbled in corn cob media to shine up and clean off lube. Decap pin used to poke through flash hole to ensure no media was in the flash hole, case then tapped upside down to ensure any media was "knocked out".

Primers were THEN taken out their box. All had the green "sealant" on the cup-side. Primed using the Lee 50th Anniversary press primer attachment (not "hand primed").

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Originally Posted by Zombie Steve

Lastly, are you sure you don't have your numbers mixed up? I thought James Bond shot .380, not .308.

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Nice....

FYI: Although the Walther PPK and PPK/S came in a .380, James Bond was know for having one chambered in 7.65mm (aka .32 ACP)...at least in the movies.
But talk about this stuff belongs in another thread...[Coffee]

Your guns dirty (firing pin blockage) or your primers are bad. Just a Guess.

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Originally Posted by Madusa

Your guns dirty (firing pin blockage) or your primers are bad. Just a Guess.

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Another vote for bad primers...

I will check and clean the firing pin. Good suggestion!!!

After cleaning, I will chamber one of the rounds that had a FTF and see if things behave better.

Note: 100 rounds of commercial ammo has had NO FTFs.

I would check and compare to see if the primers were really struck with a full firing pin strike or if they were lightly dimpled. If the latter, I'd be suspicious of the rounds being a bit too long and the gun not going fully into battery.

If the cartridges fired upon a second time, then the primers were not fully seated.

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Originally Posted by spqrzilla

I would check and compare to see if the primers were really struck with a full firing pin strike or if they were lightly dimpled. If the latter, I'd be suspicious of the rounds being a bit too long and the gun not going fully into battery.

If the cartridges fired upon a second time, then the primers were not fully seated.

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I DID re-chambered them a total of 2-3 times and tried to fire them. Still did not fire.

I'll check the "dimple".

The "not into full battery" suggestions is good.
They COULD be too long (but so far most posts in my other thread "Need Help: OAL varies" don't think so).

But...If I did not full re-size them properly, they COULD possibly be a bit too "fat" to fully seat in the chamber (especially if they originally were fired in a machine gun; I'm told that the machine gun chambers are made a bit "loose" to facilitate easier chambering/extraction at high speeds). I'm told that military brass has a "thicker" case wall and can "spring back" a bit after a full case resize. I can check the case diameter against the SAMMI spec or just try to insert one in the chamber and see if it easily goes all the way in.

Thanks again, for the suggestion.

Military brass is not going to "spring back" more than commercial brass if correctly resized. If the shoulder was not pushed back far enough, or the bullet seated out so far that it touches the lands before the bolt is fully in battery, you could see a situation where the firing pin flys forward on trigger pull but is prevented (by design) from giving a full strike to the primer.

Unless contaminated, "bad primers" are the least likely cause.

First make sure your FL resizing is being done correctly and fully, the first thought that came to my mind is that it's not getting fully into battery as spqrzilla mentioned. If you are right on the fine line of some going in and some not going into battery, this is also potentially creating a tight to zero headspace in your gun and greatly increasing your pressures. That would be the case if you aren't pushing the shoulder back far enough. Take your FTF rounds and start measuring them very carefully and I'd bet you'll find your problem.

as to the OAL moving around while crimping at the ogive, get a good brass trimmer and trim to the correct length and seating at the Ogive should give you SAMI spec ammo and should eliminate all the issues you are seeing.

It's the ONLY way I would ever load ammo for a semi-auto. If you are putting out ammo that is at SAMI spec all the way around you aren't going to have problems like this.

I also agree that the chances of "bad primers" is slim to none.

As an M1A shooter, I have had a "squib" load before. You won't hear anything, even when the primer goes off. It just sounds like a dud. I have never had that many bad primers... ever, and have loaded at least 5000 rounds. Pull the rest of your reloads and make sure they have powder. Then, if you want to, chamber a primed empty case and fire it. It'll just sound like a firecracker.

Also. I believe 46 grains of either 4895 is a little hot for the M1A. I load 42 grains and it is accurate. A 155 grain bullet according to Hornady, has a max charge of 42.9 (h4895) and 43.4 (IMR4895).

Thanks to all who took time to read and comment on my issue.

The cause of this issue was that the case was getting compressed just below the shoulder in the seat & crimp process to the point where it buckled slightly. The cartridge did not go fully into battery as it seated too "soon" in the chamber, due to the slight "buckling".

I found this out by, at the advise of some of the postings, getting the SAAMI spec, a pair of calipers, and began measuring everything I could, using a commercial round as another reference.

Seems that when I attempted to seat AND crimp, in one step, the crimp was taking hold BEFORE the bullet was fully seated. Thus when continuing to try ans set the bullet, it sort of "squished" the edge where the shoulder met the case side and caused a slight bulge. I found this out by running an uncharged/unprimed bullet/case through the die and trying to seat it just a wee bit deeper. The "bulge" was exaggerated, and demonstrated my issue .

To test this theory, I did the bullet seating and crimping in two separate steps.
Measurements confirmed all was within spec.
Range testing affirmed that things were better.
No FTFs, FTEs, or other.

Also, the load that seemed to group best was 42.5 grains of H4895 (I was comparing load sizes, not brands of powder. I only used H4895 for this test). I will stay in that range, for safety and accuracy.

Thanks again.....

Glad you got it figgered out. I was on the right track, but looking at the wrong cause.

This issue is back --- FTF and FTE.
I THOUGHT I had it figured out, but perhaps not ALL the issues.

Someone suggested that I may need to use a SMALL BASE FL re-sizer for the military LC brass (at least for the first sizing).

How can I determine if this will help?

Would a Wilson CASE GAUGE help ?

Do I need more sophisticated tools to measure anything ?

...getting frustrating [Bang]

Anyone up my way (I-25/120th Westminster) reload for the M1A and willing to take a 2nd look?

I have various flavors of brass (sized, fired by me, etc.) for some clues...

Are you setting up the dies properly? You said you were seating and crimping with the same die, not all dies do that (two and three die sets). When I have a choice I seat and crimp separately. I am not familiar with you dies but if your seater die has a screw in the top to adjust the bullet seating depth (OAL), this is how you do it. Put the case holder in the ram (if applies) then put a sized empty case in it and run it up. Screw your seater die down (with hand) tell it touches the case. Back the die off two turns and lock it down. Use the screw on top of the die to adjust seating depth (OAL). The die does not touch the case it only guides the bullet touching the bullet and seats the bullet. Use a separate crimp die.

I would try this before I went for a small base die. Let me say I don't use a small base die, but the looser you ammo is in the chamber you loose accuracy.

Firstly, thanks for your help.

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Originally Posted by Madusa

Are you setting up the dies properly? You said you were seating and crimping with the same die, not all dies do that (two and three die sets). When I have a choice I seat and crimp separately.

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Based on comments from quite a few experienced reloaders, I have abandoned the above and tried :
a) Seat, measure OAL (ensure within SAAMI specs) , crimp, remeasure OAL in separate steps
Crimp reduced to a minimal/very light crimp (just de-belling the flared neck)
b) Seat, measure OAL, no crimp.

This fixed the measurable (but not readily noticeable) bulge where the shoulder meets the body. And seemed to make things work...for a while.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Madusa

I am not familiar with you dies but if your seater die has a screw in the top to adjust the bullet seating depth (OAL), this is how you do it. Put the case holder in the ram (if applies) then put a sized empty case in it and run it up. Screw your seater die down (with hand) tell it touches the case. Back the die off two turns and lock it down. Use the screw on top of the die to adjust seating depth (OAL). The die does not touch the case it only guides the bullet touching the bullet and seats the bullet. Use a separate crimp die. .

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Did this...had a reloader friend "check" the setup as well.

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Originally Posted by Madusa

I would try this before I went for a small base die. Let me say I don't use a small base die, but the looser you ammo is in the chamber you loose accuracy.

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Right now I'm focused on getting the rifle to cycle and feed reloads consistently and refine what is needed for my reloading setup and process.
I can't disagree about less accuracy with SB dies, but with all due respect, I've got to solve the inconsistent cycling issue before addressing accuracy. (I hope you agree).

From my reading, research, and questions to other reloaders I'm led to believe the following (These are not MY opinions, but rather just a summary of the info I've collected). All just add additional variables to my equations. I'm trying to sort out the facts from fiction without buying unneeded (or used it one time and set it on a shelf) items (someone suggested I but a fiber optic inspection scope):

1) For Commercial Brass, SB resizer is not needed. One will generally wear out the brass before it expands enough for the need of a SB die

2) For Military Brass, SB dies are often needed, at least for the FIRST FL resize due to :a) Thicker base/web; b) Source is often from Auto weapons with larger/sloppy chambers that allowed the brass to stretch/bulge more than my chamber would allow

3) A case gauge , like the WILSON, should be used on each resized case to "simulate" my rifle's chamber. If it won't "chamber properly" in the WILSON gauge, it probably won't chamber and extract properly in my rifle.

4) Sometime one can avoid using SB dies and run them through a regular FL sizer a few times to get them sized properly (use lube liberally)

5) Loading for Semi's is slightly different than for bolts

6) Neck sizing only is not recommended for Semi's

7) M1A's (even non-NM versions) have a tight tolerance chamber

8) At one time, SA was letting out M1As that had poorly manufactured chambers (visible tooling marks etc.)

Could those be surplus machine gun brass? If so those are supposed to be roll sized.

Could be from autos (supplier guaranteed no particular source).

Please explain what ROLL SIZED is...I'm not familiar with the term (I heard of ROLL CRIMPED...but not ROLL SIZED)

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Originally Posted by james_bond_007

Could be from autos (supplier guaranteed no particular source).

Please explain what ROLL SIZED is...I'm not familiar with the term (I heard of ROLL CRIMPED...but not ROLL SIZED)

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Machine gun brass is very "worked" and can be way out of SAMMI spec and the case may no longer be perfectly vertical. Its not a case of just being expanded after being shot, it could be whomped. It is common for ordinary people to roll size pistol brass, but rifle brass is much more difficult.

Borrowed form another forum:
"Roll sizing is actually a more uniform way of sizing brass to ensure straight walls and proper dimensions. As the "roll" word indicates, the brass is run through a machine that rolls it between two pieces of steel that shape the entire body of brass, not just the top 75% or so as you would get with the dies that you and I would use on our reloader machines. Roll sizing is the best way to accurately and consistently size brass."


http://www.wolfbullets.com/sizer.gif

Brass has a tendency to spring back a little. If it's nato brass fired from a sloppy chamber machine gun, you can resize, forget about it for a while, and resize again when you're ready to make some rounds. Can't hurt.

Delfuego :

Thanks for posting. Nice summary of Roll Sizing.

I see that a roll sizer does a VERY good job.
Will a Small Base resizer do the job well enough ?

In other words, the equipment to roll size seems unaffordable for my purposes; but, a SB die IS affordable.

What I don't know is if a SB die is effective for what I need ...

Your welcome. I dont know the answer to that. I only know why I shouldn't buy machine gun fired brass. Steve and a few other on the forum a far more knowledgeable than me when it comes to reloading.

I would try with some totally different brass and see if you still have the same issue.

Let me know if you need some brass too, I have lots of 308, and may not be owning a 308 soon.

I'm thinking that if I can resize it (regular or SB die), and it "chambers" in the WILSON gauge, I should be "good".

Do you see anything wrong with that logic ?

Note: Just when I put a 308 Wilson Case Gauge on my Midway cart, it went out of stock....it is scheduled to arrive "yesterday". That usually means another month or so till they get one in......go figure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Delfuego

Your welcome. I dont know the answer to that. I only know why I shouldn't buy machine gun fired brass. Steve and a few other on the forum a far more knowledgeable than me when it comes to reloading.

I would try with some totally different brass and see if you still have the same issue.

Let me know if you need some brass too, I have lots of 308, and may not be owning a 308 soon.

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FWIW, I have a normal full length sizing die from Lyman, and I've used it with everything from Winchester to PMJ (Korean Nato) brass and never had a problem in my M14..

This should be everything you need to know:

http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf

Thank you, Zombie Steve :

I've read it and will re-read it again.

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Originally Posted by Zombie Steve

This should be everything you need to know:

http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf

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From the article ( p. 4)

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Conventional full length sizing dies may not do the trick. As started on, a rifle with a “match” chamber, which “should” (not necessarily wise, but likely) be a little shorter and bigger diameter, may not get along with a standard die. Since the case has to be sized down a little more than most from most other rifle types, a conventional full length die may not be up to it. If the rifle is performing well with full length sizing, run with it, but a small base sizing die will not negatively affect ammunition performance in any M14 rifle and is a recommended purchase, regardless of chamber specs. I’ve seen 14s shoot better groups after a switch to small base sizing. “Aw, c’mon...” No, really. There are high-theory ideas as to why this might happen, and, of course, just keep reading to find them, but it’s mentioned mostly to emphasize that small base sizing will in no way hurt accuracy in this rifle.

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Anyone have comments on the highlighted items ?

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Originally Posted by james_bond_007

Anyone have comments on the highlighted items ?

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Only that small base dies worked for him in his rifle.

There is only one way to know.

Hoser...
I have candidly admitted that I am new to reloading. I appreciate your and others' comments and help.
...and I AM looking for help and direction.
Thanks for helping.

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Originally Posted by Hoser

Only that small base dies worked for him in his rifle.[emphasis added by 007]

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The author, Glen D. Zediker, seems to provide a generalization regarding his observations of his and others' experiences in loading for the M14-class of rifle.

Do you share his opinion that :
1) SB dies will not negatively affect performance (Seems to be in different than MADUSA's opinion in post #21 http://www.ar-15.co/forums/showpost....7&postcount=21 )
and
2) SB dies are a recommended purchase

Any comments to my summery in post #33? http://www.ar-15.co/forums/showpost....9&postcount=23

Again, guys, I'm ASKING...not arguing.

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Originally Posted by Hoser

There is only one way to know.

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I'd like to be able to have confidence that the issues have a good chance of being solved with SB dies.
Would it be possible to do some measurements/tests ?

Would a Wilson case gauge help ?
Anything other "test" equipment recommendations ?

Also, I've seen a few variants of the SB dies.
1) SB body resizer die (sizes body/shoulder; but, does not resize the neck)
2) SB FL resizer die that resizes body/shoulder/neck

Which one would you recommend ? Can you recommend a specific manufacturer/model ?

I use my chamber for a gauge.

Using a sharpie, put some marks on the bottom of a resized case so you can try to tell where the case might be sticking. Assuming it has a fat bottom.

I do not own a M1A, so I can not tell you if a small base die will help/hurt. Only your rifle will you if it is working.

I gotta still recommend trying a different lot of brass. If the other brass fails you can eliminate the brass as the specific problem. Conversely if it resolves the issue you know it is the brass. This is scientific theory here, process of isolation and elimination.

I would hate for you to keep going around and around with all problem and no answers.

Good luck buddy!

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Originally Posted by Delfuego

I gotta still recommend trying a different lot of brass. If the other brass fails you can eliminate the brass as the specific problem. Conversely if it resolves the issue you know it is the brass. This is scientific theory here, process of isolation and elimination.

I would hate for you to keep going around and around with all problem and no answers.

Good luck buddy!

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Nothing wrong with your method.

I'm going to try reloading some of the commercial brass that worked well for me.

However, shouldn't I be able to do SOMETHING to make the brass I have "work properly" ?



...and I APPRECIATE your "good luck" message [Beer]

After reading the thread, I believe your issue is the brass. More than likely, it was shot in a gun with a fairly liberal chamber and has been bulged out toward the back. I agree with Delfuego in that you need to isolate the issue by changing one thing at a time until you isolate the problem. You need to reload and shoot some basic commercial brass and see it the fail to fire problem goes away. The SB dies might help, but you don't know yet if it's needed or not. isolating the problem to the once fired LC brass would be the first step, not trying the SB dies. If you try commercial brass and it works, then you can look at the dimensions around the webbing of the commercial brass and compare it to the dimensions of an unsized LC brass and see it it's been bulged out. Hoser's suggestion with the marker will also show if the webbing area is bulged far out enough to not chamber even after resizing. Then, the SB dies may take care of the problem. Another choice is if the commercial brass works, but the LC brass is just too blown out, stop using the LC brass. Some military once fired just gets tore up depending on the gun it was shot out of. It may not be reusable.

Last thing I would check it to see if you actually NEED to crimp the cartridges. I have very little M1A experience, but I would work off the hypothesis that crimp isn't needed until I tested it and saw enough set-back for me to start crimping the rounds. This is pretty easy to test. Once you have found some brass that will fully chamber, make a round that is fully resized and the bullet seated to about 2.80", no primer or powder. Then load it in the gun from the mag like you normally would. Remove the round and measure the OAL and see if the bullet was set back into the case. Anything over 0.1" is probably too much and a very very small amount of crimp will stop the movement.