More liberal hypocrisy

So my route to work involves driving on the 6th Ave service road that runs right by Red Rocks Community College and I get on Indiana right by the West Metro fire station that's next to the Jeffco fairgrounds. As some may know, Mitt Romney was there this morning. Lo and behold what do I see as I make the turn onto Indiana? Protesters. 1st thought was "Why are you d-bags not working?" Then I saw one of the signs: "Accountability Mr. Romney, is that too much to ask?" [Bang]

I wanted to pull over, go walk up to them, and ask "Accountability? Really? Two words- ERIC HOLDER... oh and what about highest unemployment rate since the great depression?" Idiots. They are so hypocritical they don't even realize it! [Mad]
/rant

I want you to take the rest of the day and take our Eric Holder accountability down there!

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

So my route to work involves driving on the 6th Ave service road that runs right by Red Rocks Community College and I get on Indiana right by the West Metro fire station that's next to the Jeffco fairgrounds. As some may know, Mitt Romney was there this morning. Lo and behold what do I see as I make the turn onto Indiana? Protesters. 1st thought was "Why are you d-bags not working?" Then I saw one of the signs: "Accountability Mr. Romney, is that too much to ask?" [Bang]

I wanted to pull over, go walk up to them, and ask "Accountability? Really? Two words- ERIC HOLDER... oh and what about highest unemployment rate since the great depression?" Idiots. They are so hypocritical they don't even realize it! [Mad]
/rant

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So, if someone calls for accountability for one person, they should also list all of the other folks that should also have accountability called into question? We already have Congress investigating Holder; what other actions would you expect to happen?

Regarding accuracy, according to the BLS, the highest unemployment since the great depression was in November 1982, at 10.8%

http://www.google.com/publicdata/exp...mployment+rate

Here's a non-seasonal adjustment history:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104719.html/

You know, it's fine to rant, but try to be accurate in your claims, unless you don't care.

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

So, if someone calls for accountability for one person, they should also list all of the other folks that should also have accountability called into question? We already have Congress investigating Holder; what other actions would you expect to happen?

Regarding accuracy, according to the BLS, the highest unemployment since the great depression was in November 1982, at 10.8%

http://www.google.com/publicdata/exp...mployment+rate

Here's a non-seasonal adjustment history:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104719.html/

You know, it's fine to rant, but try to be accurate in your claims, unless you don't care.

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First, Ok, I get that, but they say 8% but in reality there are estimates that the jobless is actually closer to 12-14% (Remember, unemployment only accounts for those collecting unemployment, it doesn't take into account those whose benefits ran out but are still not working).

You honestly think that they're going to do much of anything to Holder? What about Obama's role in this? I thought the buck stops here? I know if I screw up at work it reflects poorly on my employer and ultimately he's responsible for the actions of those who work for him. Is it not the same here? And Congress investigating Holder and Holder having accountability for his actions are two different matters. The douche should man up for what he has done and be... accountable and responsible for his actions, part of being a man, ya know?

Not defending liberals at all, but people on both sides are hypocrites and do that crap

Sincerly,

This Libertarian who thinks you're all nuts [Beer]

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

First, Ok, I get that, but they say 8% but in reality there are estimates that the jobless is actually closer to 12-14% (Remember, unemployment only accounts for those collecting unemployment, it doesn't take into account those whose benefits ran out but are still not working).

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Understood. Remember that all of those historical figures include that same calculation.

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You honestly think that they're going to do much of anything to Holder?

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I think that largely depends on Congress. Since the current process would call for Holder to investigate himself, and this is an election year, I don't think it likely that anything will happen anytime soon.

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What about Obama's role in this? I thought the buck stops here? I know if I screw up at work it reflects poorly on my employer and ultimately he's responsible for the actions of those who work for him. Is it not the same here?

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See above. Yes, accountability runs uphill. It stopped with Scooter Libby, though, and LTC North, and there are many instances in the past with Administrations of both parties where fall guys were used. Admittedly Holder is pretty far up, but how far down does it go down? Are Regimental Commanders taken to task for the stupid stuff Joe Snuffy does?

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And Congress investigating Holder and Holder having accountability for his actions are two different matters. The douche should man up for what he has done and be... accountable and responsible for his actions, part of being a man, ya know?

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Ah, you're attributing manly traits to politicians. That's mistake one. Most of them haven't even reached vertebrate status, and never will.

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

See above. Yes, accountability runs uphill. It stopped with Scooter Libby, though, and LTC North, and there are many instances in the past with Administrations of both parties where fall guys were used. Admittedly Holder is pretty far up, but how far down does it go down? Are Regimental Commanders taken to task for the stupid stuff Joe Snuffy does?



Ah, you're attributing manly traits to politicians. That's mistake one. Most of them haven't even reached vertebrate status, and never will.

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You're comparing what a lower enlisted does to Holder being in charge of F&F? I almost, for a second there, forgot you were our token liberal, but thanks for reminding me. The accountability of Holder is that he knew about the operation, and in good conscience didn't stop to say "wait, I'm in charge, I can stop this, this is a bad idea."

I wasn't referring to manliness, you misunderstand, being a "Man" in terms of "be a responsible adult, take responsibility for what you do." I don't know if we can discuss with you, you take things out of context just a bit. If Holder is the boss of the Head of the BATFE, and he orders an operation that is clearly giving guns to cartels, and he knows about it, then he is responsible. If a Regimental commander tells his BDE commanders to "Conduct COIN Operations in XXXX" and a PV2 dicks up it's a totally different matter and the blame lies with the PV2's direct superior usually.

Oh come on... everybody know that the BLS stats are not even close to accurate. When you own the numbers, you can present them however you want...

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Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

Oh come on... everybody know that the BLS stats are not even close to accurate. When you own the numbers, you can present them however you want...

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I think we can all agree that trying to measure statistics on a national level will always have some degree of inaccuracy, but we have to have some measurement. What would be more accurate?

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

You're comparing what a lower enlisted does to Holder being in charge of F&F?

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No, I think it was pretty clear that I was not making that comparison.

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I almost, for a second there, forgot you were our token liberal, but thanks for reminding me.

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Actually, I'm a moderate. Remember, liberals are anti-gun, and think corporations are a bad idea. I pull the best viewpoints from both sides and leave the psycho stuff to the extremists on both sides.

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The accountability of Holder is that he knew about the operation, and in good conscience didn't stop to say "wait, I'm in charge, I can stop this, this is a bad idea."

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Admittedly, it was a bad idea. Unfortunately, you don't always know it's a bad idea until you try it.

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I wasn't referring to manliness, you misunderstand, being a "Man" in terms of "be a responsible adult, take responsibility for what you do."

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That's exactly how I read it.

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I don't know if we can discuss with you, you take things out of context just a bit. If Holder is the boss of the Head of the BATFE, and he orders an operation that is clearly giving guns to cartels, and he knows about it, then he is responsible.

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I clearly accept this. Question for you: were guns willingly sold by FFLs in Arizona, legally, to straw buyers in Arizona who it turn sold them illegally to the Mexican drug cartels happening before either of the ATF sting operations in the Bush and Obama adminstrations took place? It's obvious that they were, or the ATF wouldn't have gotten involved in the first place. Regardless of whether Operation Wide Receiver or Operation Fast and Furious had taken place, guns would have flowed to the cartels, and the scumbags that killed our agents would have possessed guns.

It's not illegal for the authorities to not arrest folks in a criminal act. That's how stings operate. It's not illegal to keep covert operations covert. Lying to Congress is illegal, and we have due process to account for that. OF&F was a stupid operation, but not an illegal one. Unfortunately, lives were lost. Unfortunately, lives were lost during the war in Afghanistan, too. We're fighting a War on Drugs, remember?

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If a Regimental commander tells his BDE commanders to "Conduct COIN Operations in XXXX" and a PV2 dicks up it's a totally different matter and the blame lies with the PV2's direct superior usually.

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I agreed. I wasn't claiming that the two were the same - I was presenting different ends of the issue, and asking opinions for where the line was drawn. While the direct superior is certainly responsible for his/her immediate subordinates, many commands have been lost by actions that the commanders could have have reasonably controlled. Let the JOD put a cruiser on sandbar while the Captain is asleep and see who keeps their job.

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

No, I think it was pretty clear that I was not making that comparison.

If it was clear I wouldn't have called out on that... just saying.

Admittedly, it was a bad idea. Unfortunately, you don't always know it's a bad idea until you try it.

So... "Hey boss, we're going to make these FFLs sell guns to straw buyers who will in turn sell them to the cartels... but we're going to do our best to track all of them." How does that not sound like a terrible idea from the get go?

I clearly accept this. Question for you: were guns willingly sold by FFLs in Arizona, legally, to straw buyers in Arizona who it turn sold them illegally to the Mexican drug cartels happening before either of the ATF sting operations in the Bush and Obama adminstrations took place? It's obvious that they were, or the ATF wouldn't have gotten involved in the first place. Regardless of whether Operation Wide Receiver or Operation Fast and Furious had taken place, guns would have flowed to the cartels, and the scumbags that killed our agents would have possessed guns.

Partially true. It wasn't as prevalent as with F&F. Sure there will always be a few bad apples, but when an ATF agent comes into your business and says "Go ahead and sell to this guy" that basically spells disaster. So not, I don't think it was nearly as big of a problem that the BATFE had to get involved at such a high level and conduct such a stupid operation.

It's not illegal for the authorities to not arrest folks in a criminal act. That's how stings operate. It's not illegal to keep covert operations covert. Lying to Congress is illegal, and we have due process to account for that. OF&F was a stupid operation, but not an illegal one. Unfortunately, lives were lost. Unfortunately, lives were lost during the war in Afghanistan, too. We're fighting a War on Drugs, remember?

I won't get into the argument about the War On Drugs, I stand against it, and think it's a pointless waste of man hours and money. But I will say ordering FFLs to sell guns to known straw purchasers, then let the guns "Walk" right into the hands of the cartels sounds pretty fucking illegal to me, but I'm not a lawyer, I just watch them on TV.

I agreed. I wasn't claiming that the two were the same - I was presenting different ends of the issue, and asking opinions for where the line was drawn. While the direct superior is certainly responsible for his/her immediate subordinates, many commands have been lost by actions that the commanders could have have reasonably controlled. Let the JOD put a cruiser on sandbar while the Captain is asleep and see who keeps their job.

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Obviously a line needs to be drawn, but from what we learned this went all the way to the top, so thus we should punish as far as that goes. The DOJ is not above the law, they're supposed to enforce it, and if one of their big wigs does something so blatant as this, he should be facing a nice, long, relaxing vacation in a federal prison.

But, again, derail aside, I think that people who call out the right need to first look inward and see that their party is fairly bad too. No one is perfect, but people need to practice what they preach and expecting one candidate to be accountable for his speech/actions/policies but not pointing out their candidate/incumbent's shortfalls in the same regard is just idiotic, and shows how hypocritical they are.

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Originally Posted by ghettodub

Not defending liberals at all, but people on both sides are hypocrites and do that crap

Sincerly,

This Libertarian who thinks you're all nuts [Beer]

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Make that 2 of us! [Beer]

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

"Accountability Mr. Romney, is that too much to ask?"

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What do they want to hold him accountable for?

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Originally Posted by hollohas

What do they want to hold him accountable for?

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No clue... I didn't want to stop and be late for work trying to figure out the mental workings of a libtard... that and I didn't want to start bleeding from the ears. [Coffee]

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Originally Posted by hollohas

What do they want to hold him accountable for?

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You shut up! they dont need to know the answer to that, just tune in to John Stewart and he will tell you. [Bang]

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Originally Posted by ghettodub

Not defending liberals at all, but people on both sides are hypocrites and do that crap

Sincerly,

This Libertarian who thinks you're all nuts [Beer]

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Originally Posted by stevelkinevil

Make that 2 of us! [Beer]

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Three. [Beer]

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

No, I think it was pretty clear that I was not making that comparison.

If it was clear I wouldn't have called out on that... just saying.

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I will endeavor to write more clearly

[quote]

Admittedly, it was a bad idea. Unfortunately, you don't always know it's a bad idea until you try it.

So... "Hey boss, we're going to make these FFLs sell guns to straw buyers who will in turn sell them to the cartels... but we're going to do our best to track all of them." How does that not sound like a terrible idea from the get go?

[quote]

I wasn't there, so I'm not privy to all of the details included in the plan. You've presented a presumably simplified synopsis of the actual plan and operations order. Our hindsight is dead-on, though.

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I clearly accept this. Question for you: were guns willingly sold by FFLs in Arizona, legally, to straw buyers in Arizona who it turn sold them illegally to the Mexican drug cartels happening before either of the ATF sting operations in the Bush and Obama adminstrations took place? It's obvious that they were, or the ATF wouldn't have gotten involved in the first place. Regardless of whether Operation Wide Receiver or Operation Fast and Furious had taken place, guns would have flowed to the cartels, and the scumbags that killed our agents would have possessed guns.

Partially true. It wasn't as prevalent as with F&F. Sure there will always be a few bad apples, but when an ATF agent comes into your business and says "Go ahead and sell to this guy" that basically spells disaster. So not, I don't think it was nearly as big of a problem that the BATFE had to get involved at such a high level and conduct such a stupid operation.

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In the five years from 2007-2011, about 68,000 guns found in Mexico were traced back to the US.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...9kT_story.html

To me, that's a pretty high level.

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It's not illegal for the authorities to not arrest folks in a criminal act. That's how stings operate. It's not illegal to keep covert operations covert. Lying to Congress is illegal, and we have due process to account for that. OF&F was a stupid operation, but not an illegal one. Unfortunately, lives were lost. Unfortunately, lives were lost during the war in Afghanistan, too. We're fighting a War on Drugs, remember?

I won't get into the argument about the War On Drugs, I stand against it, and think it's a pointless waste of man hours and money. But I will say ordering FFLs to sell guns to known straw purchasers, then let the guns "Walk" right into the hands of the cartels sounds pretty fucking illegal to me, but I'm not a lawyer, I just watch them on TV.

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I'm not a lawyer, either. Too many folks are.

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I agreed. I wasn't claiming that the two were the same - I was presenting different ends of the issue, and asking opinions for where the line was drawn. While the direct superior is certainly responsible for his/her immediate subordinates, many commands have been lost by actions that the commanders could have have reasonably controlled. Let the JOD put a cruiser on sandbar while the Captain is asleep and see who keeps their job.

Obviously a line needs to be drawn, but from what we learned this went all the way to the top, so thus we should punish as far as that goes. The DOJ is not above the law, they're supposed to enforce it, and if one of their big wigs does something so blatant as this, he should be facing a nice, long, relaxing vacation in a federal prison.

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If this ever gets to trial, and he's found guilty, let's put him away. Other than following due process, I don't think there's anything else we can do at this level.

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But, again, derail aside, I think that people who call out the right need to first look inward and see that their party is fairly bad too. No one is perfect, but people need to practice what they preach and expecting one candidate to be accountable for his speech/actions/policies but not pointing out their candidate/incumbent's shortfalls in the same regard is just idiotic, and shows how hypocritical they are.

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Agreed, and it works both ways. Most folks standing around holding signs for any reason are wasting their time, IMO. I don't think that anything has ever been accomplished from holding a sign.

Is there anything that you'd like Mr Romney to be a bit more transparent about?

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Originally Posted by hollohas

What do they want to hold him accountable for?

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Mostly financial, I believe, especially with regards to tax returns and off-shore accounts.

To be accurate the unemployment stats used these days are not the same data points as used in the past. As far as being transparent let's begin with releasing any data associated as far as school records, thesis, scholarship data etc. Be careful what you ask for as the same will be expected of you and yours.

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In the five years from 2007-2011, about 68,000 guns found in Mexico were traced back to the US.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...9kT_story.html

To me, that's a pretty high level.

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Not really involved in your discussion but apparently my reading comprehension is off today. The only reference I saw in that article related to FFLs and gun walking other than OF&F was down at the very end - "U.S. gun store owners in southwestern border states sued to overturn an Obama administration requirement that they report to the ATF when customers buy multiple high-powered rifles within a five-day period. A federal court upheld the requirement." Guns in Mexico traced back to US does not equal FFL sales to straws buyers and is unsubstantiated conjecture.

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Originally Posted by divideman

To be accurate the unemployment stats used these days are not the same data points as used in the past. As far as being transparent let's begin with releasing any data associated as far as school records, thesis, scholarship data etc. Be careful what you ask for as the same will be expected of you and yours.

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Sounds good to me. I'm 100% in favor of all of that, for all candidates.

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Originally Posted by Whistler

Not really involved in your discussion but apparently my reading comprehension is off today. The only reference I saw in that article related to FFLs and gun walking other than OF&F was down at the very end - "U.S. gun store owners in southwestern border states sued to overturn an Obama administration requirement that they report to the ATF when customers buy multiple high-powered rifles within a five-day period. A federal court upheld the requirement." Guns in Mexico traced back to US does not equal FFL sales to straws buyers and is unsubstantiated conjecture.

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Point taken. It's reasonable to assume, however, that:

1. Straw buyers selling guns into Mexico had been going on for some time before 2007, else the ATF wouldn't have created a sting process utilizing that logistics chain.

2. Some portion of the 68,000 guns from the US were sold legally to US citizens and made their way to Mexico or into the hands of criminals in the US.

3. Regardless of ATF sting activity, weapons have been and will continue to be sold to straw buyers and passed on to criminals.

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

Is there anything that you'd like Mr Romney to be a bit more transparent about?

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I think the main thing, where does he honestly stand on 2A rights? I've seen him flip flop a lot, but I'm still going to support him over Comrade-Barry.

1. Is still an assumption
2. I have sold guns to legal folks but have no idea where they went after
3. Crime happens though hopefully our Gov will try not to participate

Didn't mean to derail anything and I'll let somebody else argue with you, just being moderately pedantic.

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

Point taken. It's reasonable to assume, however, that:

1. Straw buyers selling guns into Mexico had been going on for some time before 2007, else the ATF wouldn't have created a sting process utilizing that logistics chain.

2. Some portion of the 68,000 guns from the US were sold legally to US citizens and made their way to Mexico or into the hands of criminals in the US.

3. Regardless of ATF sting activity, weapons have been and will continue to be sold to straw buyers and passed on to criminals.

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1. Yeah of course

2. Yes. What does that have to do with the ATF forcing KNOWN illegal sales and just letting them walk?

3. So two wrongs make a right ?? really? Just blame Bush right ? F&F would be a lot easier to swallow except for these factors:

A. It had been tried before and FAILED.

B. Despite knowing of the failure they tried anyways and this time did not bother to inform the mexican's

C. Again Despite knowledge of failure the first time... THey tried it again and didn't even bother to follow the weapons.

D. F&F weapons that came from a failed operation form the start that you didn't track the weapons or let the mexicans know what you were doing.....got american LEO's killed.

To expand on Point B... How would YOU feel if say the Saudi's knowing they have a terrorist bomb problem allowed / helped terrorists get bombs across the US border and used said bombs to kill americans.. How would YOU Feel ?

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

So, if someone calls for accountability for one person, they should also list all of the other folks that should also have accountability called into question? We already have Congress investigating Holder; what other actions would you expect to happen?

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OK. I'll play. Romney is a private citizen. What, exactly, do your liberal protester friends want in terms of accountability from Mitt Romney? Eric Holder is in charge of the justice department. Do I need to list the things for which Holder should accept accountability? The list is rather long...

Don't really care to get into the unemployment debate. The Obama administration releases bullshit figures, then revises them upward the following week. How many consecutive weeks have they revised the numbers up now? 55 or thereabouts?

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

First, Ok, I get that, but they say 8% but in reality there are estimates that the jobless is actually closer to 12-14% (Remember, unemployment only accounts for those collecting unemployment, it doesn't take into account those whose benefits ran out but are still not working).

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Actually Ronin, you're wrong. It's much worse (I know this because my wife worked for Mesa County on this topic for a bit). The unemployment rate is only based upon new claims and those that are only six months long. After six months rather you are collecting or not, you drop off that figure. The only way that figure drops is if people that are collecting, stop collecting (report a job or whatever else), or there are less new claims. That's it in an easy nut shell. [Beer] This means that the unemployment figures do not include anyone not caliming, that can't claim, or that have claims longer than six months old.

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

Understood. Remember that all of those historical figures include that same calculation.

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No, they were different, and more accurate. The actual unemployment rate is much higher now because the numbers are not accurate at all. At all....... The ones from the depression, were accurate.

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Originally Posted by Whistler

1. Is still an assumption
2. I have sold guns to legal folks but have no idea where they went after
3. Crime happens though hopefully our Gov will try not to participate

Didn't mean to derail anything and I'll let somebody else argue with you, just being moderately pedantic.

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I like pedantic. Thanks for calling me out. How do you feel about local LEO sting operations for drug sales, etc?

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Originally Posted by clublights

1. Yeah of course

2. Yes. What does that have to do with the ATF forcing KNOWN illegal sales and just letting them walk?

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What was illegal about the initial sales? Selling firearms to American citizens of legal age is perfectly legal, isn't it?

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To expand on Point B... How would YOU feel if say the Saudi's knowing they have a terrorist bomb problem allowed / helped terrorists get bombs across the US border and used said bombs to kill americans.. How would YOU Feel ?

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I don't feel that the Saudis are our allies now. Not informing the Mexicans that OF&F was in play could be considered an act of war.

[Rucker61;568348]What was illegal about the initial sales? Selling firearms to American citizens of legal age is perfectly legal, isn't it?


Not if its known (prevous experinces) that you are not going to be the sole owner of the firearm aka Straw sell.



I don't feel that the Saudis are our allies now. Not informing the Mexicans that OF&F was in play could be considered an act of war.[/quote]


I don't feel the saudis ever really where allies. As far as Mexico what are they going to do Invade?.......to late. What about the US citizens that have been killed by Illigals does that not constitute an act of war?

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Originally Posted by Mazin

[Rucker61;568348]What was illegal about the initial sales? Selling firearms to American citizens of legal age is perfectly legal, isn't it?


Not if its known (prevous experinces) that you are not going to be the sole owner of the firearm aka Straw sell.

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Unfortunately, I don't think that previous activity counts in a courtroom. As I see it, the crime wouldn't occur until the straw buyer completed the transaction. I'm not a lawyer, though.

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

Unfortunately, I don't think that previous activity counts in a courtroom. As I see it, the crime wouldn't occur until the straw buyer completed the transaction. I'm not a lawyer, though.

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To me it would show intent, but I'm no lawyer ether.

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Originally Posted by Tor Larson

Don't feed the troll.

He's a lib

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Untrue. Liberals don't own guns and believe in the 2nd amendment, do they?

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and doesn't even own an AR.

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True, but I have in the past, could again in the future, understand that it's not a requirement for membership, and there are over 40 subforums here not focused on AR-15s. I own 9 other firearms, though.

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Why is he even on this site? Kinda like a vegetarian hanging out at Ruths Chris steak house or a priest visiting the Red Light District in Amsterdam. He just likes peeing in the pool.

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No, I like talking and learning about shooting. There are some pretty informed folks here, and it's local, too. Why are you so afraid of me posting here?

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

Untrue. Liberals don't own guns and believe in the 2nd amendment, do they?

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Sure. Some do. Just ask your buddy, JK.

http://protectwhatsright.files.wordp...ger_guard1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Bailey Guns

Sure. Some do. Just ask your buddy, JK.

http://protectwhatsright.files.wordp...ger_guard1.jpg

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It looks like he's having flashbacks to his days in 'Nam. Scary.

I think you mean Cambodia.

[Coffee]

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

I don't feel that the Saudis are our allies now. Not informing the Mexicans that OF&F was in play could be considered an act of war.

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Oh and armed citizens of a foreign country illegally entering a sovereign nation and killing citizens of said sovereign nation isn't an act of war? Give me a fucking break!

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Originally Posted by Mazin

I don't feel the saudis ever really where allies. As far as Mexico what are they going to do Invade?.......to late. What about the US citizens that have been killed by Illigals does that not constitute an act of war?

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THIS!

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

Oh and armed citizens of a foreign country illegally entering a sovereign nation and killing citizens of said sovereign nation isn't an act of war? Give me a fucking break!

!

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No, I don't believe that it's Mexican government policy, any more than you walking across the border and shooting a Mexican citizen would be considered an act of war by either accepted international law or by US Statute.

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

No, I don't believe that it's Mexican government policy, any more than you walking across the border and shooting a Mexican citizen would be considered an act of war by either accepted international law or by US Statute.

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There has been substantial evidence that armed Mexican soldiers, have crossed our border illegally, and have fired on US Citizens. Either way, Mexico needs to fix this shit.

Okay, I think its time we had a a few terms of Libertarian presidents.

Not because I'm a Libertarian, but so we can get this whole "if we had libertarians in office things would be different" argument out of the way.

Would it be different for a term or two? Yes. And then the power would go to their head, just like it did with every other political party, and we can all talk about how those "dang libertarians and their corruption" and how things would be "so much different" if X political party is in power.

I agree their needs to be a shake up, but holy crap, read a history book. Everything starts out with a great idea, honest and true morals, and then humans screw it up and throw it straight down the toilet.

People have been killing each other for thousands of years. People steal, lie, cheat, and destroy.

PEOPLE are the problem.

PEOPLE!

Things are not the issue. Ideas themselves aren't even really the "issues" here. It is people. An object, an idea, or a plan is only as dangerous or as prosperous as the PEOPLE behind it.



And that's why ya'll need JESUS!

[Tooth]