A Liberal Case for CCW

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...gle_page=true#

I don't think this article is that useful for members here and I didn't like a few of his points. I doubt if there's much opposition to CCW here.

This is good to pass along to liberal co-workers, family & such.

Jeffrey Goldberg is a fairly amusing writer for this mag. Early in his life he moved to Israel and served in the IDF. Using souvenirs of his extensive Mid East travels he had fun seeing if there was any intelligence in TSA. His conclusion was not.

Great quote from Dave Kopel: ' he made the plausible assertion that Boulder is home to “the largest population of armed vegans in America.”'

He discusses the stupidity of gun free zones much more politely than most of us could manage. He visited Colorado a few months after the movie massacre so he met with local LEO's and others. He also managed to bring out that so much of the anti-gun arguments is based on emotion alone.

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Originally Posted by CrufflerSteve

Great quote from Dave Kopel: ' he made the plausible assertion that Boulder is home to “the largest population of armed vegans in America.”'

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Well, they don't hunt, so they're either criminals or, theoreitcally and more likely, law abiding citizens who want to protect themselves. What a concept! 20,000 vegans can't be wrong.

Like the video, haven't yet had time to read through the whole article.

However, I don't like the way this passage was written, "The National Rifle Association and other anti-gun-control groups worked diligently to defend the loophole—misnamed, because while loophole suggests a small opening not easily negotiated, about 40 percent of all legal gun sales take place at gun shows, on the Internet, or through more-informal sales between private sellers and buyers, where buyers are not subject to federal background checks." as it implies that Internet sales are not subject to background checks. As we all know, nothing could be further from the truth.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the gun show loop hole closed a long time ago? Because pretty much my understand is if you are on the premise of a gun show, and you as a private seller try to sell something, that they are breaking the law by not doing a back ground check. I know that is the case for all fire arm sales through all dealers regardless of location.

I think part of the problem is many of the left just do not understand the current state of the laws.

the 'gun show loophole' was closed in CO. Check are required at gun shows (3 more more vendors). the term is just used for any sale that does not involve a FFL and a background check.

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Originally Posted by nynco

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the gun show loop hole closed a long time ago? Because pretty much my understand is if you are on the premise of a gun show, and you as a private seller try to sell something, that they are breaking the law by not doing a back ground check. I know that is the case for all fire arm sales through all dealers regardless of location.

I think part of the problem is many of the left just do not understand the current state of the laws.

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It is "closed" in Our state of colorado... other states do not have that law on the books ...

I think the Anti's harp on it because they want it on a federal level .

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Originally Posted by nynco

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the gun show loop hole closed a long time ago? Because pretty much my understand is if you are on the premise of a gun show, and you as a private seller try to sell something, that they are breaking the law by not doing a back ground check. I know that is the case for all fire arm sales through all dealers regardless of location.

I think part of the problem is many of the left just do not understand the current state of the laws.

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As evidenced by your own lack of understanding. [fail]

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Originally Posted by brutal

Like the video, haven't yet had time to read through the whole article.

However, I don't like the way this passage was written, "The National Rifle Association and other anti-gun-control groups worked diligently to defend the loophole—misnamed, because while loophole suggests a small opening not easily negotiated, about 40 percent of all legal gun sales take place at gun shows, on the Internet, or through more-informal sales between private sellers and buyers, where buyers are not subject to federal background checks." as it implies that Internet sales are not subject to background checks. As we all know, nothing could be further from the truth.

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He is completely off in a some places like this. First off, a word like loohole, is a loaded term. Colorado banned private sales at gun shows years ago but many other states still allow it. Personally, I think it was a mistake to allow dealers into gunshows. They were more fun long ago.

I wish he had fact checked this a bit better but these sort of things would make it through a NYC based magazine. David Kopel wouldn't make such a statement but he wouldn't get a chance to write a mainstream article like this.

I'm pointed out this article as a something that could explain CCW to someone who doesn't like guns, not anything to persuade anybody here. The video got into the 'free rider' argument. which to me is quite persuasive. Even if you don't carry, you can benefit from this by being in a place where lots of law abiding people do. He then spent time explaining that CCW people are extremely law abiding, more than LEO's. That idea is not at all present in most MSM media and he discussed massacres that were prevented or stopped by armed citizens.

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Originally Posted by jgang

What a concept! 20,000 vegans can't be wrong.

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At least about being armed. [ROFL1]

About what constitutes "food" however...

I don't think that is to much of an extreme to have on a national level what is working fine in Co. But it's not an issue that I worry about personally.

And Brutal, its not a fail to show humility while asking a question. Failing would be never asking or learning the truth.

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Originally Posted by nynco

I don't think that is to much of an extreme to have on a national level what is working fine in Co. But it's not an issue that I worry about personally.

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It works in CO because it doesn't do anything. Gun shows became just like buying from the local store except you have multiple stores in walking distance. As long as face to face sales between regular people is legal there will be a 'gun show loophole' Get a federal law on it, the name will just change.

The last thing this country needs is more useless laws. (ok maybe not the last thing but it is way down on the list)

I have no problem with personal sales, I have done them. However, I don't think it is fair to the law abiding gun store owners, who went through hell and back to get the proper paper work, to be unfairly undercut by people using loop holes. That is not a free market then, that is a rigged market skewed towards those who do not do business by the many laws that all businesses must abide by. Again I am not referring to Joe Schmo with a few personal guns. I am referring to some guy selling tons of stuff. Where that line is drawn - too hard to say.

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Originally Posted by nynco

I am referring to some guy selling tons of stuff. Where that line is drawn - too hard to say.

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There is a fuzzy line already. ATF will nail you for engaging in the business without a license at some point.

Precisely, which to me, it is not fair to the honest business owner to have some under handed fake dealer undercutting him by skipping the laws that the business owner has to live under. That is what happens when you have that gun show loop hole.

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Originally Posted by nynco

I have no problem with personal sales, I have done them. However, I don't think it is fair to the law abiding gun store owners, who went through hell and back to get the proper paper work, to be unfairly undercut by people using loop holes. That is not a free market then, that is a rigged market skewed towards those who do not do business by the many laws that all businesses must abide by. Again I am not referring to Joe Schmo with a few personal guns. I am referring to some guy selling tons of stuff. Where that line is drawn - too hard to say.

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Once again, you make no sense and appear disconnected from reality. The argument about "gun show loopholes" has nothing to do with gun store owners being undercut or whether or not there's a free market. Even the Brady Bunch doesn't make that kind of ludicrous argument. If anything, requiring background checks on all purchases made at gun show rigs the market because Average Joe isn't set up to do background checks so has to direct his/her customers over to someone who does -- enabling the regular gun store to undercut that independent sale by the cost of the background check.

Increased regulation is almost always in favor of the large vendor who can amortize the costs of the required equipment or infrastructure across large numbers of sales. More to the point, the requirement for gun show background checks does NOTHING for public safety. It's as much of a farce as calling a semi-automatic rifle an "assault weapon" because it has a bayonet lug or collapsible stock.

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Originally Posted by nynco

Precisely, which to me, it is not fair to the honest business owner to have some under handed fake dealer undercutting him by skipping the laws that the business owner has to live under. That is what happens when you have that gun show loop hole.

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unlikely
distributors will only deal with you if you have a FFL so you could only deal in used guns.
You can do it just as easily outside a gunshow. gunbroker, armslist, other websites (here). Hell you dont even have to travel, pay your show fees, etc. easier to sell over the internet.

But you start engaging in a business without licenses you are running some serious risks. Prison time level risks. it is not worth it.

legit business being undercut is/was not the reason to remove private sales at gunshows. The lack of a background check was the reason.

Which Merl, I think that private individuals should be able to sell at gun shows at a reasonable level. I think that they should also have to use the back ground check system just like a dealer. By being at a gun show it is then a market place that is not the same thing as a personal private transaction.

I think we agree on something but are looking for things to disagree on.

Aloha, from what I have seen at the Colorado Gun shows, there is a back ground check that can be used by all people at the front of the entrance. If not, then there should be one for all people to access and use. Its the gov requiring it, in my opinion it should be free and not even be charged a user fee to do one.

There is no "loophole." It is just the way that the law is written. Private party sales are not required to go through a background check. Just because it takes place at a gun show is completely irrelevant to the issue.

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Originally Posted by Irving

There is no "loophole." It is just the way that the law is written. Private party sales are not required to go through a background check. Just because it takes place at a gun show is completely irrelevant to the issue.

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Uhhh I'm pretty sure you are wrong here...

ANY sale at a gunshow MUST go thru a background check . that is my understanding at least .. if I'm wrong please show me .

Clublights apparently, as I have been informed here, the background check stuff is a Colorado law.

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Originally Posted by nynco

Clublights apparently, as I have been informed here, the background check stuff is a Colorado law.

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Yeah it is And that is my understanding.. Iving is saying that a private sale requires no background check ( true) even if at a gun show ( not true)

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Originally Posted by clublights

Uhhh I'm pretty sure you are wrong here...

ANY sale at a gunshow MUST go thru a background check . that is my understanding at least .. if I'm wrong please show me .

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That's the way it is NOW, after the retarded liberals closed the "loop hole" that was never there. It was never a loop hole, it was just the way that the law was written. In fact, the law is still written that way, with the exception that a background check must be performed if a group of 3 or more people get together. As if criminals buy guns in groups. An auction perhaps.

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Originally Posted by Irving

That's the way it is NOW, after the retarded liberals closed the "loop hole" that was never there. It was never a loop hole, it was just the way that the law was written. In fact, the law is still written that way, with the exception that a background check must be performed if a group of 3 or more people get together. As if criminals buy guns in groups. An auction perhaps.

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AH apologies .. I miss understood the way you wrote it before. my bad [Beer]