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  1. #11
    Missing Man on a Milk Carton islandermyk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brutal View Post
    You may need to swab it.


    Quote Originally Posted by C Ward View Post
    Haven't seen a shift like that in either of my TBAC cans . My first guess would be a lack of preload on the bipod since it went away when you started concentrating again . That being said AAC has had a lot of issues with their QD mounts and if your can uses one that can cause issues also .
    The Brakeout I have on the rifle locks up pretty tight with the can. I think it maybe my shooting at the time getting spoiled that there was barely any recoil with the can on.... whoa! whoa! whoa...! lets not talk about my shooting

    Will there be residual pressure in a can (shooting in fast strings), and will or can that effect accuracy?
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  2. #12
    I am my own action figure
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    There is no residual pressure. The combustion gases will result in slightly higher density in the bore and can for several seconds. However, from a thermodynamic perspective, the difference is statistically insignificant.
    Good Shooting, MarkCO

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  3. #13
    Missing Man on a Milk Carton islandermyk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkCO View Post
    There is no residual pressure. The combustion gases will result in slightly higher density in the bore and can for several seconds. However, from a thermodynamic perspective, the difference is statistically insignificant.
    God I wish there was a way to see through a can to watch how gases flow, compress, etc.. through the baffles in a can... especially between a short and longer suppressor.
    I was thinking when the bullet leaves the barrel on its way toward the can... pressure is being built up in front of the round and when it enters the suppressor... pressure (I would think) is building up with existing higher density gases and would that actually affect the flight path of the round.....?
    Last edited by islandermyk; 03-09-2013 at 08:17.
    Whore monger Mike!

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  4. #14
    Mr Yamaha brutal's Avatar
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    You're over thinking it. Concentrate on your technique, be consistent.
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  5. #15
    I am my own action figure
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    Quote Originally Posted by islandermyk View Post
    God I wish there was a way to see through a can to watch how gases flow, compress, etc.. through the baffles in a can... especially between a short and longer suppressor.
    I was thinking when the bullet leaves the barrel on its way toward the can... pressure is being built up in front of the round and when it enters the suppressor... pressure (I would think) is building up with existing higher density gases and would that actually affect the flight path of the round.....?
    There is. I do this in CFD packages. When a round is fired, the column of gases in the barrel are part of the ejecta. When a HV round leaves the barrel, it is flying supersonically backwards. That is why the base of the bullet affects accuracy (specifically nutation). The suppressor strips the gases off in a more controlled manner, and sooner, thus increasing accuracy (with a good can). BUT...

    Quote Originally Posted by brutal View Post
    You're over thinking it. Concentrate on your technique, be consistent.
    This is better advice.
    Good Shooting, MarkCO

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  6. #16
    Missing Man on a Milk Carton islandermyk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brutal View Post
    You're over thinking it. Concentrate on your technique, be consistent.


    I probably am... but just think!

    The next can you might want to get...

    Would the shorter or longer can be more accurate?
    Would more baffles or less would be more accurate?
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  7. #17
    Missing Man on a Milk Carton islandermyk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkCO View Post

    This is better advice.
    enough about my shooting
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  8. #18
    Say "Car RAMROD!" J's Avatar
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    To ellaborate on MarkCO's point (NERD ALERT!).

    Yes there will be a bit of pressure, but less than 2 bar (2x standard atmospheric pressure). Consider that a 308's max SAMMI is about 4,500 bar in the chamber. It will be somewhat lower than that by the time it gets to the can, but you are still talking thousands of time higher pressure during the shot than with residual pressure.

    If anything, the heating of the barrel would be the first place to have a significant reaction. Between heating, and swelling and a slight change in its metallurgic stiffness (K = M/phi) wherein metal becomes more maliable as it heats up, you would see changes several fold more significant than pressure changes. I'm still not sure its enough to cause these big differences, but it may be measurable as some fraction of an MOA on a target. Changing the Length and end weight on a barrel (with a can) could conceivably produce more change due to heating:

    Lets consider a more direct approach at determining the stiffness of the barrel,

    K = nAE/L. N is a constant for a given material, considering the boundary conditions and A is a constant considering the cross sectional area of the material, and E is a constant considering the elasticity of the material (all constant for this problem as we aren't swapping the material). As we don't want a value but merely a rough picture of the system, lets assume n=1 and A=1 and E=1 for this material, and throw them out, so we have (K=1*1*1)/L, therfore K (stiffness) = 1/L (length. So we see as Length goes up, our stiffness goes down. This proves there will be some change in POI due to a change in stiffness by adding length to the system.

    Yes there is a flaw in this logic, as n,A,E are different between the supressor and the barrel. But we could come up with some approximation for the suppressor as a smaller increase in the length of the barrel that will behave the same. So we still know L is going up. Therefore, stiffness goes down.

    Lets also consider that the amount of deflection is related to the moment of inertia vs the moment of force applied to the barrel. Again we have K=M/phi. Lets rewrite that as phi = M/K, where phi is the amount of barrel deflection, M is the moment of force applied, and K is the stiffness. We know that K has gone down, which means a bigger phi, deflection. But we have not yet considered M. M is the summation of all moments of force throughout the system, an integration from start to end for those with some calculus background. Lets consider than the barrel will have the same forces applied to it with can on, or can off. This can be ignored. We can therefore account (to a second order approximation) for only the moment of force applied to the can. While smaller than that applied to the barrel, because only pressure puts force on the can rather than the projectile itself, this smaller force will be enhanced by its radial distance from our pivot point (considering the barrel as a pivot around the action, as it moves more closely to a radial system than a linear system). And some copy/paste from my formula editor is the radial equation for moment of inertia in a radial system. As we can see, the moment of inertia increases exponentially with increased radius. Because radius is squared, we get large gains as we increase the radius upon which the force is applied. So even the smaller forces there play a role due to increased radius. So now we have phi = M/K, where K is getting smaller, and M is getting bigger both as heat increases, so we may see some noticeable observations depending on how much each change. Running rough numbers, I come up with something at least measurable, but even my most overly liberal estimations put it just over 1MOA.

    Conclusion: You get better accuracy when you go slow, because everyone gets better accuracy when they go slow and take their time on a shot.

    If you've made it this far, thanks for nerding out with me for at least a few minutes.
    Last edited by J; 03-09-2013 at 09:33.
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  9. #19
    Rabid Anti-Dentite Hoser's Avatar
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    I blame the trigger presser.

    Load the bi-pod harder and focus on your rear bag.

    Best advice is to get a really accurate 22 and shoot it a lot at 50-100 yards. One little itty bitty flaw in what you are doing will move the bullet quite a ways compared to a centerfire.
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  10. #20
    Missing Man on a Milk Carton islandermyk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J View Post
    To ellaborate on MarkCO's point (NERD ALERT!).

    Yes there will be a bit of pressure, but less than 2 bar (2x standard atmospheric pressure). Consider that a 308's max SAMMI is about 4,500 bar in the chamber. It will be somewhat lower than that by the time it gets to the can, but you are still talking thousands of time higher pressure during the shot than with residual pressure.

    If anything, the heating of the barrel would be the first place to have a significant reaction. Between heating, and swelling and a slight change in its metallurgic stiffness (K = M/phi) wherein metal becomes more maliable as it heats up, you would see changes several fold more significant than pressure changes. I'm still not sure its enough to cause these big differences, but it may be measurable as some fraction of an MOA on a target. Changing the Length and end weight on a barrel (with a can) could conceivably produce more change due to heating:

    Lets consider a more direct approach at determining the stiffness of the barrel,

    K = nAE/L. N is a constant for a given material, considering the boundary conditions and A is a constant considering the cross sectional area of the material, and E is a constant considering the elasticity of the material (all constant for this problem as we aren't swapping the material). As we don't want a value but merely a rough picture of the system, lets assume n=1 and A=1 and E=1 for this material, and throw them out, so we have (K=1*1*1)/L, therfore K (stiffness) = 1/L (length. So we see as Length goes up, our stiffness goes down. This proves there will be some change in POI due to a change in stiffness by adding length to the system.

    Yes there is a flaw in this logic, as n,A,E are different between the supressor and the barrel. But we could come up with some approximation for the suppressor as a smaller increase in the length of the barrel that will behave the same. So we still know L is going up. Therefore, stiffness goes down.

    Lets also consider that the amount of deflection is related to the moment of inertia vs the moment of force applied to the barrel. Again we have K=M/phi. Lets rewrite that as phi = M/K, where phi is the amount of barrel deflection, M is the moment of force applied, and K is the stiffness. We know that K has gone down, which means a bigger phi, deflection. But we have not yet considered M. M is the summation of all moments of force throughout the system, an integration from start to end for those with some calculus background. Lets consider than the barrel will have the same forces applied to it with can on, or can off. This can be ignored. We can therefore account (to a second order approximation) for only the moment of force applied to the can. While smaller than that applied to the barrel, because only pressure puts force on the can rather than the projectile itself, this smaller force will be enhanced by its radial distance from our pivot point (considering the barrel as a pivot around the action, as it moves more closely to a radial system than a linear system). And some copy/paste from my formula editor is the radial equation for moment of inertia in a radial system. As we can see, the moment of inertia increases exponentially with increased radius. Because radius is squared, we get large gains as we increase the radius upon which the force is applied. So even the smaller forces there play a role due to increased radius. So now we have phi = M/K, where K is getting smaller, and M is getting bigger both as heat increases, so we may see some noticeable observations depending on how much each change. Running rough numbers, I come up with something at least measurable, but even my most overly liberal estimations put it just over 1MOA.

    Conclusion: You get better accuracy when you go slow, because everyone gets better accuracy when they go slow and take their time on a shot.

    If you've made it this far, thanks for nerding out with me for at least a few minutes.
    you got to be sh*tting me

    I think I understand.... it does have some effect, and I have to learn how to slow down and shoot better.

    Yep, I'm over thinking this ain't I? Just want to get a general idea of what would be a good suppressor design to go with on my next buy.... There's seems to be a sacrifice for everything here. If I go short.. I'll get the accuracy but not the quietness. If I go longer I'm sacrificing accuracy for quietness.. is this right?

    Damn, you guys thinking like this early in the morning... sh*t... making my head hurt
    Whore monger Mike!

    Slinging coconuts since ever since...

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