In other CO legislative news- CO General Assembly Passes Civil Unions Bill

[davsel]

... The BIBLE was written by men, it is not the word of God himself. Since you believe we must follow the bible... Oh and you better go after those Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, Satanists, Jedi, and Taoists because they put false Gods before your one true God. This is the reason why my interpretation and following of the Christian faith fails to conform to the organized system of beliefs because I use logic and reason to realize that the Bible, A) cannot be interpreted literally, and B) was written by man, not God and thus should be regarded as such (ie, pun sorry, not in fact Gospel, but as tales and examples of doing good and clarifying right and wrong loosely).

FWIW
I once believed as you do now. I spent years arguing with "Christians" over the origins and interpretations of the Bible, written by man, cause of war, used for control of the masses/finances, great moral stories, etc.

What changed my mind was when a friend gave me a copy of a Greek/English translation of the New Testament. She wanted to take away my argument of translation differences. I read it front to back and became a believer about half way through. I then spent a couple of years studying the Bible through college courses and on my own. It has made a defining difference in my life.
YMMV

[Epyon]

FWIW
I once believed as you do now. I spent years arguing with "Christians" over the origins and interpretations of the Bible, written by man, cause of war, used for control of the masses/finances, great moral stories, etc.

What changed my mind was when a friend gave me a copy of a Greek/English translation of the New Testament. She wanted to take away my argument of translation differences. I read it front to back and became a believer about half way through. I then spent a couple of years studying the Bible through college courses and on my own. It has made a defining difference in my life.
YMMV

Then by that argument even the Greek to English translation holds no weight because you'll need to learn Aramaic and Hebrew if you want the full meaning.

[Ronin13]

FWIW
I once believed as you do now. I spent years arguing with "Christians" over the origins and interpretations of the Bible, written by man, cause of war, used for control of the masses/finances, great moral stories, etc.

What changed my mind was when a friend gave me a copy of a Greek/English translation of the New Testament. She wanted to take away my argument of translation differences. I read it front to back and became a believer about half way through. I then spent a couple of years studying the Bible through college courses and on my own. It has made a defining difference in my life.
YMMV

That's the beauty of the ideas passed on by Jefferson- he wasn't anti-religion, he simply said that one's religion is the business of that individual, not the state nor the church. That's kind of how I believe... We all choose to believe whatever we like, and I choose to believe, and acknowledge that the bible was still written by men. Men, who at the time thought it wrong to lay with another man, covet their neighbors wives (covet, not pursue), depictions of pornography (guilty here!), and many other things that are not viewed as bad these days. I look at the evolution of our society as a dictation of moral "good," this may sound liberal, but I do retain some limitations based on my morals and beliefs. Look at the 1820's... Slavery was still legal, society believed at that time that blacks were a lesser race, and this was viewed as acceptable. Now if you had the mentality of that time today, surely you would be ostracized and labeled a bigot. But just under 200 years ago this was okay. I view the homosexuality matter in the same light, our society is now viewing equality as right and just as the morals of years past had not reached full maturity.

Again, the bible was written by men of a time where such teachings were appropriate... And I understand your desire to use this argument as a dish on the Constitution, but the wording is different and less restrictive in the constitution, and can more freely advance through time... Also the Constitution contains amendments so that it may be updated, the Bible does not.

[davsel]

That's the beauty of the ideas passed on by Jefferson- he wasn't anti-religion, he simply said that one's religion is the business of that individual, not the state nor the church. That's kind of how I believe... We all choose to believe whatever we like, and I choose to believe, and acknowledge that the bible was still written by men. Men, who at the time thought it wrong to lay with another man, covet their neighbors wives (covet, not pursue), depictions of pornography (guilty here!), and many other things that are not viewed as bad these days. I look at the evolution of our society as a dictation of moral "good," this may sound liberal, but I do retain some limitations based on my morals and beliefs. Look at the 1820's... Slavery was still legal, society believed at that time that blacks were a lesser race, and this was viewed as acceptable. Now if you had the mentality of that time today, surely you would be ostracized and labeled a bigot. But just under 200 years ago this was okay. I view the homosexuality matter in the same light, our society is now viewing equality as right and just as the morals of years past had not reached full maturity.

Again, the bible was written by men of a time where such teachings were appropriate... And I understand your desire to use this argument as a dish on the Constitution, but the wording is different and less restrictive in the constitution, and can more freely advance through time... Also the Constitution contains amendments so that it may be updated, the Bible does not.

Yes, this does sound very liberal to me.

I base my moral values on the Word of God - Has not changed in over 2000 years.
I understand you base your moral values on logic and reason - Constantly changing.

I will stick with my baseline, and do my best to keep it.

[Ronin13]

Yes, this does sound very liberal to me.

I base my moral values on the Word of God - Has not changed in over 2000 years.
I understand you base your moral values on logic and reason - Constantly changing.

I will stick with my baseline, and do my best to keep it.

You still ignore my main argument... How do you know for sure that it's in fact, verbatim, THE word of God? Of course the very obvious answer is faith or "that's what I choose to believe," but as I've seen in my limited but very educational experience of this world the word of man can only be trusted so much, I naturally question, therefore I am a Christian in a very basic sense of the word, but get along great with Atheists because I ask questions instead of blindly leaping and letting my faith ensure I don't leap into a 1,000 foot chasm. Last time I checked, we've been calling for the liberals to use logic and reason in their decision on pending laws... how is my use of it now liberal?

[davsel]

That's the beauty of the ideas passed on by Jefferson- he wasn't anti-religion, he simply said that one's religion is the business of that individual, not the state nor the church. That's kind of how I believe... We all choose to believe whatever we like, and I choose to believe, and acknowledge that the bible was still written by men. Men, who at the time thought it wrong to lay with another man, covet their neighbors wives (covet, not pursue), depictions of pornography (guilty here!), and many other things that are not viewed as bad these days. I look at the evolution of our society as a dictation of moral "good," this may sound liberal, but I do retain some limitations based on my morals and beliefs. Look at the 1820's... Slavery was still legal, society believed at that time that blacks were a lesser race, and this was viewed as acceptable. Now if you had the mentality of that time today, surely you would be ostracized and labeled a bigot. But just under 200 years ago this was okay. I view the homosexuality matter in the same light, our society is now viewing equality as right and just as the morals of years past had not reached full maturity.

Again, the bible was written by men of a time where such teachings were appropriate... And I understand your desire to use this argument as a dish on the Constitution, but the wording is different and less restrictive in the constitution, and can more freely advance through time... Also the Constitution contains amendments so that it may be updated, the Bible does not.

You still ignore my main argument...How do you know for sure that it's in fact, verbatim, THE word of God? Of course the very obvious answer is faith or "that's what I choose to believe," but as I've seen in my limited but very educational experience of this world the word of man can only be trusted so much, I naturally question, therefore I am a Christian in a very basic sense of the word, but get along great with Atheists because I ask questions instead of blindly leaping and letting my faith ensure I don't leap into a 1,000 foot chasm. Last time I checked, we've been calling for the liberals to use logic and reason in their decision on pending laws... how is my use of it now liberal?

Um, I was agreeing with you.

Yes, faith

I do not believe one's morals should be an "evolving" target.
The Bible provides me an excellent source of "simple" values to pursue.
I found it very comforting to let go of trying to sort it out for myself when I became able to trust the Bible as a manual. Once I started looking deeper into the interconnection of scripture, more and more was revealed to me and made sense. And yet, there are always more puzzling scriptures to keep me interested and engaged for ever. Each path I study to understand, usually reinforces or expands on the previous paths I took, and always leads to another.

BTW, I get along well with Atheists also, as I once was an adamant Atheist. I have an idea as to where they are coming from.