A new Trust / Legal Entity can of worms, HB1229...

[spqrzilla]

NFATrustGuy, I don't agree with your interpretation of 1229 language. I think that "hold" a beneficial interest will include contingent beneficiaries. All that is going to be a question is when the requirement for the background check is triggered. Also, I am dubious of using a trust to own magazines covered by the ban at this time but that legislation's language is even more vague. However, in the magazine ban, I think the problematic language revolves around the magazine ban's definition of "possession".

[NFATrustGuy]

Fair enough. Disagreements promote discussion...

I'm interested in hearing how others see this.

FWIW, I too am a bit dubious of using a Trust to hold magazines. With the lack of serialization, I just don't see it as much of an issue. They can't prove what you own pre-ban so how do they know whether what you've got is legal or illegal? The only real part of the mag law I could see biting someone in the tookus is the restriction on sales. I could just see some overzealous bureaucrat running a magazine sting operation. Heck, now that pot is legal, I'm sure there are some undercover operatives with time on their hands, right?

Rod

[XC700116]

I you wanted to add magazines to a trust, couldn't you "modify" them in some way (like engraving the trust's name on them) and then serialize them, saying the trust is then the manufacturer, and all items serialized, then they would be individually identifiable and thereby proof of ownership established? Much in the same way that you mark an AR15 lower for SBR purposes on a form 1 only without the NFA side of it.

Just a thought.

[Great-Kazoo]

I you wanted to add magazines to a trust, couldn't you "modify" them in some way (like engraving the trust's name on them) and then serialize them, saying the trust is then the manufacturer, and all items serialized, then they would be individually identifiable and thereby proof of ownership established? Much in the same way that you mark an AR15 lower for SBR purposes on a form 1 only without the NFA side of it.

Just a thought.

WHY? ONLY you and members of your household KNOW, or have an idea what you are in POSSESSION of. No one else knows, UNLESS you decide to Itemize every single mag in your inventory. I have more important things to do then round up every firearm magazine WE own or are in possession of.

[XC700116]

WHY? ONLY you and members of your household KNOW, or have an idea what you are in POSSESSION of. No one else knows, UNLESS you decide to Itemize every single mag in your inventory. I have more important things to do then round up every firearm magazine WE own or are in possession of.

More just thinking out loud and bending the Lawyer's ear on it, and because I'm single with no kids, and I'd like to protect my posessions if I were to arrive at an untimely end and make sure they go to those whom I choose. ie my Brother in MN, my buddy here in CO, etc.

The "only you know what you have" only goes so far as your household and the posessions there in when everyone in your family lives out of state. I can't gaurantee that those items won't disappear from my home between my passing and arrangements to be made where family would be there to get them out. A trust having ownership of them could possibly insulate said items in my case where there might be an issue if I were to meet my ends in an accident. It would also give my family a big heads up with legal documentation on what they should be looking for in my posessions. My firearms and the magazines for them are the only posessions I have that have any threat of being confiscated should something happen to me (at this point in time) So I'm looking for a way to make sure the commies of CO can't get their paws on my shit even after I'm gone. If I had a wife and children it might be different, because someone would be there right away to tell them to pound sand.

And I garuantee that although there's a lot of people that I don't want them to KNOW what I have, they still know it. It's not that hard to take a peak at my purchasing records and see how much stuff I buy on my credit/debit cards. Unless you deal in 100% cash all the time and never order anything over the internet, and never say anything on forums, they can find out if they so choose. I know that sounds pretty tinfoil hat like, but it's the truth, and they keep going down that slippery slope all the time.

[NFATrustGuy]

No worries from me. I encourage the discussion.

Just to be clear--you do NOT have to add serial numbers to your mags to add them to a Trust. Trusts own non-serialized assets all the time. How many dining room tables have you seen with serial numbers?!?

The point I think some of us are trying to make regarding serial numbers is that if your mag doesn't have a serial number, how in the world will the government prove that THAT particular item is illegally held? It's like trying to regulate #2 pencils, but only pencils transferred after July 1.

I don't plan on adding serial numbers to any of my mags and can't think of a good reason why anyone would want to. And for the record... I probably own about a billion 30 round mags at this point... Just in case somebody checks the forum archives after July 1.

@XC700116:

I, too, am single with no children. I have relatives in the area, but it'd probably be weeks before anyone missed me! I've never heard of the 'authorities' searching the house of a recently deceased person unless it appears the death is due to something other than natural causes. I think your stuff would be pretty safe.

As to transferring your mags to out-of-state relatives, I don't know how the government would ever know about it. In the vast majority of estates, there is no need to file a list of the decedent's assets with any government representative. My guess is that your family would come to town, pack up your shtuff and drive it home in a U-Haul. In the note you prepare to your brother asking him to clear the browser cache on your computer, you might also want to include a warning about selling your mags at a garage sale now that Colorado has adopted California's attitude towards firearms and related accessories.

As for divvying up your stuff, you can use a Trust for this or a Will. If you don't have a Will, the state plan would be to give your stuff to wife, kids, grand kids, parents, siblings, etc. in that order. As soon as they find somebody alive in a particular level of the family tree, that's who gets your stuff.

Rod

[TFOGGER]

If you can fill 'em all at one time, that would make you.....DHS...

[XC700116]

No worries from me. I encourage the discussion.

Just to be clear--you do NOT have to add serial numbers to your mags to add them to a Trust. Trusts own non-serialized assets all the time. How many dining room tables have you seen with serial numbers?!?

The point I think some of us are trying to make regarding serial numbers is that if your mag doesn't have a serial number, how in the world will the government prove that THAT particular item is illegally held? It's like trying to regulate #2 pencils, but only pencils transferred after July 1.

I don't plan on adding serial numbers to any of my mags and can't think of a good reason why anyone would want to. And for the record... I probably own about a billion 30 round mags at this point... Just in case somebody checks the forum archives after July 1.

Gotcha, I was more or less wondering if it may add another layer of "Proof" from our side. Weather or not the burden of proof is legally on the prosecutor or not, I was more thinking it may add a layer of documentation to avoid going to court on the whole thing to begin with in the case of an overzealous prosecutor. Granted if you have that dillhole, you're probably going to court anyway.

Like I said, thiking out loud more than anything.

[Great-Kazoo]

More just thinking out loud and bending the Lawyer's ear on it, and because I'm single with no kids, and I'd like to protect my posessions if I were to arrive at an untimely end and make sure they go to those whom I choose. ie my Brother in MN, my buddy here in CO, etc.

The "only you know what you have" only goes so far as your household and the posessions there in when everyone in your family lives out of state. I can't gaurantee that those items won't disappear from my home between my passing and arrangements to be made where family would be there to get them out. A trust having ownership of them could possibly insulate said items in my case where there might be an issue if I were to meet my ends in an accident. It would also give my family a big heads up with legal documentation on what they should be looking for in my posessions. My firearms and the magazines for them are the only posessions I have that have any threat of being confiscated should something happen to me (at this point in time) So I'm looking for a way to make sure the commies of CO can't get their paws on my shit even after I'm gone. If I had a wife and children it might be different, because someone would be there right away to tell them to pound sand.

And I garuantee that although there's a lot of people that I don't want them to KNOW what I have, they still know it. It's not that hard to take a peak at my purchasing records and see how much stuff I buy on my credit/debit cards. Unless you deal in 100% cash all the time and never order anything over the internet, and never say anything on forums, they can find out if they so choose. I know that sounds pretty tinfoil hat like, but it's the truth, and they keep going down that slippery slope all the time.

. Put everything in the will for family and friends as you see fit. Trust, the items for distribution to residents of CO.