Thinking I may break down and finally get something in 9mm

[Jer]

Oh yeah, thanks for the new sig line too. This is priceless.

[SA Friday]

Head shots vs thorasic cavity shot are more a matter of hitting a dynamic (there's that word again) target. I don't claim that someone can dodge bullets, but Ayoob did prove in court that an average person can turn fast enough to be engaged facing the shooter and get shot in the back. Dynamic shooting situations...

Who cares about the famous people in relation to guns. They are two totally different subjects. Inject Hollywood stars and you are completely void of reality when it comes to guns.

There's nothing wrong with 9mm, and I've shot over 100k rounds of it in the last 4 years. It has it's place. Never the less, bigger is better when it comes to stopping bad guys. Every study done has shown this: the US Army learned this in 1904, the FBI rediscovered this after the Miami-Dade shoot-out disaster, and the US military is relearning what they previously learned in Iraq and Afghanistan. More importantly, the surgeon that I shoot competitions with who's done 100's of surgeries on shooting victims has said this. I think it might be true...

Some interesting reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson-LaGarde_Tests
http://brownilife.com/2009/02/09/tho...-tests-of-1904
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm (pay peticular attention to Platt's wounds from a 9mm and the aftermath of them not stopping him till after he reaked havoc with a rifle.)
http://www.thegunzone.com/miami-ammo.html (an EXCELLENT article by Charles Petty on the FBI testing criteria)
http://textfiles.fisher.hu/law/nov_1.law (Write up by SA John Hall, FBI's Firearm's Training Unit Chief in 1989)

[Jer]

Not ONE of these studies takes real world practice and the common citizen into account. A couple controlled rounds into a specific (and single) target. I see no mention of cost. With the same money or less you can practice MUCH more. This will make the shooter more prone to getting that perfect shot and also safer when innocent people are around. 9mm also offers less recoil so that in panic situations when hammer firing you will be more likely to group tighter and quicker. End result is a more controlled burst of rounds on target and less likelihood of any strays harming innocent people nearby. It also doesn't take into account that most people that conceal for protection only carry a single handgun w/o a backup mag. So, again all things being equal, I can carry 17+1rds of 9mm in my Glock to about half that of a 1911. Most people talk about killing a 'bad guy' but what happens when it's 'bad guys'? I've got more rounds which will better allow me to stop or at least wound more bad guys. If a guy approaches you for your wallet with a group of five or six of his buddies and they have knives are you going to hope that you get perfect shots off on all five moving targets under the most intense pressure of your life? Keeping with the same scenario let's pretend for a moment you only wound them. You still think they want your wallet or are they going to use what's left of their ability to get the fuck out of dodge? If there's ANYTHING 18rds of 9mm Ranger SXT can't at least heavily weaken then I'm running the opposite way as fast as 285lbs can go anyway and I'm also pretty sure 13rds of .45 wouldn't have done much more damage either. It just burns me when people go on and on on these internet forums about how 9mm rounds are made of some magical flubber material that bounces off all but the thinnest and most fragile of skins. It's just as capable as killing in the real world in the right hands as the next handgun.

The reality of it is all handgun calibers do is poke holes. Some holes are slightly larger than others but they are still just holes and the more holes you can poke in the area of vital organs w/o endangering innocent people nearby the better you are.

Bottom line is shoot what you're comfortable with and shoot it as much as your funds and time allow. This is the best possible solution to the what caliber debate because placement trumps caliber EVERY time w/o fail.

[SA Friday]

Not ONE of these studies takes real world practice and the common citizen into account. A couple controlled rounds into a specific (and single) target. I see no mention of cost. With the same money or less you can practice MUCH more. This will make the shooter more prone to getting that perfect shot and also safer when innocent people are around. 9mm also offers less recoil so that in panic situations when hammer firing you will be more likely to group tighter and quicker. End result is a more controlled burst of rounds on target and less likelihood of any strays harming innocent people nearby. It also doesn't take into account that most people that conceal for protection only carry a single handgun w/o a backup mag. So, again all things being equal, I can carry 17+1rds of 9mm in my Glock to about half that of a 1911. Most people talk about killing a 'bad guy' but what happens when it's 'bad guys'? I've got more rounds which will better allow me to stop or at least wound more bad guys. If a guy approaches you for your wallet with a group of five or six of his buddies and they have knives are you going to hope that you get perfect shots off on all five moving targets under the most intense pressure of your life? Keeping with the same scenario let's pretend for a moment you only wound them. You still think they want your wallet or are they going to use what's left of their ability to get the fuck out of dodge? If there's ANYTHING 18rds of 9mm Ranger SXT can't at least heavily weaken then I'm running the opposite way as fast as 285lbs can go anyway and I'm also pretty sure 13rds of .45 wouldn't have done much more damage either. It just burns me when people go on and on on these internet forums about how 9mm rounds are made of some magical flubber material that bounces off all but the thinnest and most fragile of skins. It's just as capable as killing in the real world in the right hands as the next handgun.

The reality of it is all handgun calibers do is poke holes. Some holes are slightly larger than others but they are still just holes and the more holes you can poke in the area of vital organs w/o endangering innocent people nearby the better you are.

Bottom line is shoot what you're comfortable with and shoot it as much as your funds and time allow. This is the best possible solution to the what caliber debate because placement trumps caliber EVERY time w/o fail.

Agree completely. If you can't handle a 45 like my 90lb 14 year old step-daughter can, you should stick to the 9mm . Just kidding...

I will say though, I wouldn't set my practicing standards as low or high based on what the police or military do. Both are well below my standard of low amount of practice.

Practice and lots of it is what determines accuracy, not caliber. But you are right, 9mm is cheaper ammo. I costs me aprox $30 more per 3k to reload 40 S&W and about $60 more per 3k to reload 45 ACP.

Pretty sure I haven't taken the stance that any caliber isn't capible of killing, much less the 9x19 round. Earlier someone asked for studies, background, info, whatever... I provided studies and background info showing that bigger is better. Nothing in there discounts the 9mm round as a viable defensive pistol round. They just say there is better. You gotta shoot someone (god forbid) you use what you have. Hell, for that matter, I'd be throwin spears from an atlatl if that's all I had.

Pick one and practice.

[Jer]

Agree completely. If you can't handle a 45 like my 90lb 14 year old step-daughter can, you should stick to the 9mm . Just kidding...

I will say though, I wouldn't set my practicing standards as low or high based on what the police or military do. Both are well below my standard of low amount of practice.

Practice and lots of it is what determines accuracy, not caliber. But you are right, 9mm is cheaper ammo. I costs me aprox $30 more per 3k to reload 40 S&W and about $60 more per 3k to reload 45 ACP.

Pretty sure I haven't taken the stance that any caliber isn't capible of killing, much less the 9x19 round. Earlier someone asked for studies, background, info, whatever... I provided studies and background info showing that bigger is better. Nothing in there discounts the 9mm round as a viable defensive pistol round. They just say there is better. You gotta shoot someone (god forbid) you use what you have. Hell, for that matter, I'd be throwin spears from an atlatl if that's all I had.

Pick one and practice.

I can appreciate that you're not saying it's infective but the reason I posted is because there are actually people in the world that believe the 9mm will NOT kill a human being and the previous replies are what prompted me to post because people perpetuate that rhetoric and it drives me nuts. Normally speaking I'm not even going to say anything about 9mm v .45 because as far as I'm concerned either one will kill a drain in society just the same. We're all on the same team and if you shoot well with it then great! One more supporter of 2nd amendment rights. It's only when people (generally the '1911 crowd' as I call them) start to post 'proof' that 9mm won't kill a human that I feel the need to chime in and argue that not only will it accomplish this menial task but I also give a few bullet points why it might be better for some, but not all. I'm not trying to say it's better but only plant a seed of doubt for those who think it's incapable because that's just a load of shit and anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant. I get tired of this debate (worse than the Chevy v Ford debate when they both get about the same job done and the only differences in reality are matter of opinion anyway) and am mad at myself for getting suckered into it once again.

[RRD3]

It's really pretty hard to take anything you say seriously. Perhaps you've watched a few too many movies. I'll have an intelligent debate with anyone who is willing to not make up facts and stats and has some semblance of intelligence but you've already failed all the prerequisite qualifications.

Your a fucking idiot plain and simple.
Those are lines in the report from the L.A. coroners office, Not my own thoughts and opinions on the subject.

[DOC]

I like 9mm just fine and will continue to trust my life with it. Its better than a .22lr. Now there is a round that I don't see doing much damage on the first shot. If there is anything it has to penetrate I mean.

[GunTroll]

This has touched a nerve I see!

Edit....I see SA Friday got this one covered........Perhaps I missed it in these pages but the main reason Military people bitch about the 9mm and 5.56 caliber should probably be the actual bullet that is being shot. Not the diameter of the bullet. FMJ is crap! 5.56 FMJ is worthless! They should go with a more soft point rapid expansion projectile to give the cartridge more stopping power. I knew guys that smuggled some reloads into theater just because of the lethality issue of FMJ. 9mm same thing. They or anyone using it to defend and or kill enemies should look right on past anything that's FMJ or target crap.

Jer,
RRD3 has been there and done that when it comes to battle. You? Didn't think so. Try calling out someone who has done a little less next time. If someone post some info that you don't "believe" is factual ask for a link instead of calling them a liar. Might gain more respect that way! I'm thinking / painting a image of a couch commando for you. Is this accurate?

[GunTroll]

OK, is it just me or does it feel weird kind of (but not completely or I would be totally weirded out) agreeing with GunTroll?

I'm storing this for some rainy day when I'm down and out.

[DD977GM2]

If all I had was a 9mm and strong words, Id have no issue going to the 9mm. After my experience from the service, I had poor experiences with the 9mm and swore after I got out to never own one. When I saw how much my boys liked shooing a 9mm AR or an SP89, I thought to myself , for the fun of shooting and enjoyment maybe I should get one.

As for the rest of the thread, I am guessing it got a bit out of hand, not thanks to me too. At the same time, I do enjoy a good debate. I didnt think folks here were so ferocious as ar15.com is in the 9mm vs 45 debate.

to end the thread, 45 is always going to be better then 9mm