Guantanamo Bay

[Irving]

Can we talk about Guantanamo Bay a bit?

I have never understood this controversy over Guantanamo Bay. Of all the issues out there that I could waste my time pondering about, Guantanamo Bay comes in even below global climate change.

What exactly is the big deal anyway? I hear that now they are moving people from Guantanamo to Iowa or some where. What is the difference? Prison is prison. Can someone explain to me why anything relating to Guantanamo is even news worthy? Every time I hear the president even mention Guantanamo, I think that he might as well be reporting on his efforts to close a local McDonalds, because I care about that much about Guantanamo Bay.

[Irving]

I just feel like there are literally 100's of other government programs that could be ended that would have a more positive and tangible effect on the American people than Guantanamo Bay.

[Irving]

That's pretty much what I thought, but I don't even understand what the people who follow this news want. I get that people want it closed, but why?

[BigBear]

Some people want Guantanamo closed because there have been reports of prisoner abuse, and that could ruin our "image" in the worlds' eye. No mention is made of why they are prisoners or how many American's they have killed, but I guess the details are too much for some.

My personal opinion. Guantanemo holds the bad of the bad off of CONUS American soil. It's costs over $100K PER INAMTE a year (medical, food, etc). A Bullet costs 2 cents... a baseball bat is free... you do the math.

Same thing for people on welfare. Get rid of welfare and save BILLIONS of dollars a year. If they turn to crime, kill 'em. If they "can't" find a job, then they deserve to starve until they do. (Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the different charities out there, there is no reason for someone to starve in America, it just takes a little motivation). People wouldn't complain that immigrants are taking all the jobs that Americans won't work, etc... Dear lord, don't get me started.... grrr

[Hoosier]

The problem is that events in Guantanamo fall in a legal loop hole. It's sovereign territory of a communist nation with which we have no direct diplomatic ties. Things that happen there (torture) wouldn't automatically fall under the laws of the United States. This is why the military set up the base there... it was built in just a few weeks out of chain link, plywood, and razor wire.

When taken to the extreme, the debate comes down to" do you believe the US is better served by taking any action to safeguard it's citizens in the short term (torture, assassinate, invade); or take the moral "high road" and be seen as justified in the eyes of the wider world.

I think the real problem is that too many people deal in absolutes. A population of 350m people living in a free society cannot be entirely free of the threat of terrorism (or other crimes). You have to make smart choices that mitigate it -- to operate in the grey between these absolutes.

[Irving]

I first heard about Guantanamo Bay during the whole Patriot Act uproar a few years ago. Is that about right? I assume the G Bay has been around for a while, but it was largely under the radar until 9/11 and the Patriot Act stuff?

[jason303]

It's what Obama calls a "win-win". Starts to deliver on a campaign promise and kisses ass of the leaders of our enemies.

[Irving]

Thanks for all the replies. It sounds like I pretty much had the gist of it, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.

I am a little confused about us having and using property in Cuba though. What kind of message does that send that we can't trade with them, but we like them enough store our trash at their house.

[TFOGGER]

I first heard about Guantanamo Bay during the whole Patriot Act uproar a few years ago. Is that about right? I assume the G Bay has been around for a while, but it was largely under the radar until 9/11 and the Patriot Act stuff?

A little history:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...tanamo-bay.htm

GTMO has a lot of people concerned for some of the reasons above:

Prisoners at GTMO are effectively outside the normal criminal and military justice systems, hence vulnerable in a number of ways to abuses. It highlights the loss of rights in the rush to pass the Patriot Act. The detainees are being held, in many cases without being charged with a crime, yet not being classified as prisoners of war, so the .gov claims they are not bound by the Geneva Conventions, since the detainees are not signatories. Essentially, the liberals feel that GTMO is an embarrassment to the US. I, on the other hand, see it as en effective way to segregate these potentially dangerous individuals from the US mainland, provided they eventually either charge and try them, or determine that they pose no threat and release them. Holding people indefinitely without charge smacks of totalitarianism.

[Ranger353]

Prisoners at GTMO are effectively outside the normal criminal and military justice systems, hence vulnerable in a number of ways to abuses. It highlights the loss of rights in the rush to pass the Patriot Act. The detainees are being held, in many cases without being charged with a crime, yet not being classified as prisoners of war, so the .gov claims they are not bound by the Geneva Conventions, since the detainees are not signatories. Essentially, the liberals feel that GTMO is an embarrassment to the US. I, on the other hand, see it as en effective way to segregate these potentially dangerous individuals from the US mainland, provided they eventually either charge and try them, or determine that they pose no threat and release them. Holding people indefinitely without charge smacks of totalitarianism.

I agree but, I do not buy into the argument that the camp in GITMO will lead to an erosion of U.S. standing globally, hell they hated us before 9/11 and nothing we do is going to change that. To believe that we have some higher moral obligation to continue to turn the other cheek is just stupid liberal ideology. They believe that we can somehow effect change with passive actions. It's all passive liberal BS. Most of those people (and I used that term loosely) have killed Americans, or planned to kill Americans in battle, and if let loose will kill Americans globally. No sugar on that fact, it is what it is. The GITMO camp represents decisions of the prior administration and therefore it must be flawed and bad in the eyes of liberal politicians and citizens, who the majority of have never served their country in uniform.

Makes me angry when I read the blind, no facts arguments of many that do not know what the hell they are talking about.