Massad Ayoob "Lethal Force Aftermath" interview and reloads for self defense in a trial

[GilpinGuy]

I thought about posting this in the reloading forum, but thought it might get a little more exposure here.

I just listened to an interview with Massad Ayoob about "Lethal Force Aftermath" from 2013. As usual, he was insightful.

One thing that he stated really surprised me regarding the use of hand loaded ammo for self defense, and GSR evidence in particular, during a trial if you defend yourself and go to trial because of it.

He stated that "Historically, the courts have not accepted the gun owners word for what ammunition was...exactly what load was in the gun. The Prosecutor could say, 'Well, ladies and gentlemen of the Jury, he literally manufactured the evidence. How do we know he didn't make his one special death bullet with it's own unique characteristics that was designed to throw the detectives off the trail of truth?' And I have yet to see a case where the courts have accepted, for gun shot residue testing purposes, the word or the records of the citizen who used it."

Interesting stuff and something to consider if you reload. Hear the interview here and skip ahead to about 57:20 to the relevant part. The entire interview is worth listening to though.

[Great-Kazoo]

He's been saying this forever. The consensus is not in favor one way , or the other. If i'm on the way home from range or a competition. Need to defend myself, by using letal force. the last thing on my mind is, what will the jury think about the ammo used. IF (key word) IF the DA decides to take a "self defense" shooting to court. There's other things happening besides what ammo you used.

[GilpinGuy]

Yes, but what about your bedside gun?

[Great-Kazoo]

Yes, but what about your bedside gun?

Which one? We use factory test proven rounds, the spouse insist on factory for pd guns in home and on the town. That's her comfort level, i make her happy.
Not that it should be of any concern to anyone else. Like i said, IF it goes to trial , you have other issues. Now the civil suite guaranteed to follow. That's where it may make a difference.

It may factor in based on which state, county, city you reside. There's an anti-gun DA. The political climate is also anti-gun. Wouldn't matter if the now deceased perp had slashed your kids throat, when you dropped him / them. You're fuked.

Either way you're in to an atty for an easy $30 - 40K up front.

[Irving]

Yes, but what about your bedside gun?

Depends on how easily the prosecutor can convince the jury that you loaded up a special round designed to murder people, and planned on going on a killing spree in your bedroom. I guess that the overall context of the entire event will weigh more heavily toward the conclusion than the fact that something was reloaded.

[boomerhc9]

interesting stuff

[HoneyBadger]

Even if you think his course of argument is invalid, I think his conclusion is relevant. Walking around town with handloads for self defense is just begging for a civil suit.

[Hoser]

If Ayoob told me the sky was blue, I would go check.

[Great-Kazoo]

Even if you think his course of argument is invalid, I think his conclusion is relevant. Walking around town with handloads for self defense is just begging for a civil suit.

You're going to be sued in civil court, no matter what.
One item i forgot to touch on regarding reloads, not sure about everyone else. EVERYTHING i load is to factory / mfg specs. PLUS they are at the low - medium end of data. There's nothing hot rod, death dealing in any of the manuals OR mfg on line loads. Sue me, sue them, which they will in today's litigious society.

Slightly OT regarding lawsuits. Talking with an ins rep for coverage on someones business. They said the manufacturer is just a small portion of a lawsuit. They opposing team will go after the insured, the mfg of tooling, parts / individual components of said finished product. Going for the throat of the deepest pockets.

[DHC]

You're going to be sued in civil court, no matter what.
One item i forgot to touch on regarding reloads, not sure about everyone else. EVERYTHING i load is to factory / mfg specs. PLUS they are at the low - medium end of data. There's nothing hot rod, death dealing in any of the manuals OR mfg on line loads. Sue me, sue them, which they will in today's litigious society.

Slightly OT regarding lawsuits. Talking with an ins rep for coverage on someones business. They said the manufacturer is just a small portion of a lawsuit. They opposing team will go after the insured, the mfg of tooling, parts / individual components of said finished product. Going for the throat of the deepest pockets.

>>You're going to be sued in civil court, no matter what.<<

Perhaps, BUT, the Colorado statute also includes immunity from civil action - ref C.R.S. 18-1-704.5 (4):

Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from any civil liability for injuries or death resulting from the use of such force.

FYI