Mass shooting in South Carolina

[Hound]

The world is a strange place and you are showing a lack of understanding within it. Kazoo is spot on with this one. By your theory the South won and is still the "dominant culture". Ummmmm......wrong. Personally I like the flag but it means something different to me than those against it. I grew up in the south and to me it means rebellion not slavery, it means Southern common sense/hospitality not oppression. That is my take.... On a personal level. That being said, there is a darker side to it that does symbolize intolerance/bigotry and it what 'they' see when they look on that flag. The world is moving to acceptance of each other and you had better understand that or wind up in the not-so-funny papers like Roof did. He brought this on himself and lumped the rest of us that liked that flag into his racist BS.

No, that is not the goal. The goal is Cultural Marxism (via Critical Marxism aka Critical Theory). The goal is to destroy the dominant culture.

[davsel]

I know some conservatives (particularly southern ones) will have a problem with removing the Confederate flag from public buildings and other official use ...and I must agree if we're being pushed into being PC by leftists, then I can see why some would oppose this.

But to be honest I've long wondered why Republicans didn't support the push to get rid of the Confederate flag sooner. The Confederacy is a creation of Democrats and racist Democrats (redundant, I know) have operated under it both before and after the Civil War.


A devotee of this flag murdered the first Republican president and frankly for most of us non-southern Republicans the only history many of us have with the flag is that our ancestors shot at and where shot at by people marching under this flag.


Again I don't like the idea of leftist PC pushing people to abandon a symbol of their heritage for dumb PC reasons, but in this case we're better off not defending the Confederacy (which is, after all, a defeated enemy of the United States, and when you read the Confederate Constitution you realize that their sole reason for existence was to keep slavery alive).


All that said, if you're going to remove the Confederate flag from government buildings, I don't want to see that goddamn gay rainbow "gaystapo" flag flying there either. The US flag, the state flag and the city flag ... that is ALL that should be flown in any official capacity.

NOT TRUE

The victors get to write the history that is taught in school. It is universally skewed.
Fortunately, our freedom of speech allows the defeated to set the record straight - though it will not reach those who do not seek it.

Here's a good read for anyone who wants another perspective on the War of Northern Aggression and how Lincoln set in motion the Nationalist system of government we have today - in opposition of the Federalist form our Constitution originally created.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Real-Linco.../dp/0761526463

Most Americans consider Abraham Lincoln to be the greatest president in history. His legend as the Great Emancipator has grown to mythic proportions as hundreds of books, a national holiday, and a monument in Washington, D.C., extol his heroism and martyrdom. But what if most everything you knew about Lincoln were false? What if, instead of an American hero who sought to free the slaves, Lincoln were in fact a calculating politician who waged the bloodiest war in american history in order to build an empire that rivaled Great Britain's? In The Real Lincoln, author Thomas J. DiLorenzo uncovers a side of Lincoln not told in many history books and overshadowed by the immense Lincoln legend.

Through extensive research and meticulous documentation, DiLorenzo portrays the sixteenth president as a man who devoted his political career to revolutionizing the American form of government from one that was very limited in scope and highly decentralized—as the Founding Fathers intended—to a highly centralized, activist state. Standing in his way, however, was the South, with its independent states, its resistance to the national government, and its reliance on unfettered free trade. To accomplish his goals, Lincoln subverted the Constitution, trampled states' rights, and launched a devastating Civil War, whose wounds haunt us still. According to this provacative book, 600,000 American soldiers did not die for the honorable cause of ending slavery but for the dubious agenda of sacrificing the independence of the states to the supremacy of the federal government, which has been tightening its vise grip on our republic to this very day. You will discover a side of Lincoln that you were probably never taught in school—a side that calls into question the very myths that surround him and helps explain the true origins of a bloody, and perhaps, unnecessary war.

Here's a web page explaining the difference:
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jala/262...;view=fulltext

[MED]

I agree with this.

I totally don't understand this mindset that attacking inanimate objects will somehow change human behavior. That includes guns, flags, books, etc.

This too

Personally I like the flag but it means something different to me than those against it. I grew up in the south and to me it means rebellion not slavery, it means Southern common sense/hospitality not oppression.

And, especially this...

Here's a good read for anyone who wants another perspective on the War of Northern Aggression and how Lincoln set in motion the Nationalist system of government we have today - in opposition of the Federalist form our Constitution originally created.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Real-Linco.../dp/0761526463

I think so many people look at the Civil War in terms of slavery, but there are other issues at play. Many of the men who fought under the Confederate Battle Flag could care less about slavery. They came to fight for their rights. The end result of this war and the subsequent years of federalism is that we all became slaves to the federal government.

When I talk to people about my views of the Civil War, they look at me like I'm nuts. I have some pretty strong views about this country's march to federalism and ultimately global socialism.

Finally...
I think taking down the Confederate Battle Flag means that we, those who still believe in the American experiment, have given up to Political Correctness, Globalism, and Totalitarian Rule.

[RMAC757]

The Civil War wasn't a battle to abolish racism in the South. Concluding that the Confederate States and their representative banner only stood for racist ideals is lacking context. To suggest that the Union states were somehow not racist defies historical evidence.

How far does this war on symbolism go, even when the user expressing a direct connection misuses it? What if this nutjob had posed with the symbol of a crucifix? The Bible doesn't say that slavery should be abolished. So...all Christians are therefore racist?

Colossians 3:22-25

Colossians 4:1



I totally don't understand this mindset that attacking inanimate objects will somehow change human behavior. That includes guns, flags, books, etc.

Respectfully, In my opinion this is not entirely correct. It's true that the Civil War wasn't directly about slavery but preservation of the Union. We have to ask ourselves "what was it about States Rights that brought the North and South to war." Slavery was the primary issue that tested this concept. Your average poor, enlisted, southerner on the battlefield could barely read let alone understand the issue of States rights. For the most part the average person today doesn't understand this concept so it's hard to believe they rallied under a legal cause they barely understood. Most southerners fought to preserve their way of life and to settle the continued animosity towards the North. Slavery was the cornerstone of the southern way of living. It was the driving force behind the south's entire economy.

I don't care who flies the flag. The 1st gives people that right. In my opinion though it shouldn't be flown over any type of state or federal ground due to the volatile nature and history of it. At it's core the flag is a symbol of a defeated cause. With respect for all those who fought and died it shouldn't be celebrated. The Mexican flag isn't flown over Texas so why should any confederate flag be flown over a southern state? I also wish people would stop calling it the Confederate flag. It's not. It's the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia.

[KestrelBike]

Slavery was the primary issue that tested this concept. Your average poor, enlisted, southerner on the battlefield could barely read let alone understand the issue of States rights. For the most part the average person today doesn't understand this concept so it's hard to believe they rallied under a legal cause they barely understood. Most southerners fought to preserve their way of life and to settle the continued animosity towards the North. Slavery was the cornerstone of the southern way of living. It was the driving force behind the south's entire economy.

What were those southerners fighting for then, if not states rights/sovereignty and protection of home and values against the North? According to this guy (writing for the VFW but hosted on a daughters of confederacy website lol http://vaudc.org/confed_vets.html ) only 6% of the South owned slaves, and 3% of the south owned the vast majority of the slaves. Now that's 6-3% of civilians, not soldiers. If you think that the top 3% of civilians who owned the majority of slaves were the same dudes in the front lines with fixed bayonets, I got a bridge to sell you. Johnnie Reb with the rifle was the poor farmer making up the other 94-97% of the Southern civilian population that could barely afford a piece of land to farm, let alone a slave. If any slave owners fought, they were probably generals or high up in the officers corps. It's kind of ridiculous to think that the 94% of the population who did not own slaves would all rise up to protect the big-wig plantation owners' abilities to use slaves.

Hell, before the war the politically-connected plantation owners put up literacy tests to keep the poor white southeners from voting because the latter would have better opportunities and a level playing-field to farm if slavery wasn't allowed and the big-wigs would have to pay them instead of using slave labor. Even if they weren't literate, it's difficult to think they were still so stupid that the average southern man couldn't see this for himself.

As far as racism goes, it's also a complete joke to think that the North was all roses & daisies towards blacks with feelings of complete equality. They didn't use slave labor, in part because their economy couldn't profit from it. The abolitionists were an exception, not the norm. Today of course you have everybody (well, popular figures who like to claim responsibility for the actions of their ancestors hundreds of years ago) claiming that they come from a line of abolitionists and civil rights leaders.

In my opinion, the Confederate flag (if you call it the correctly titled BFNV, no one's going to know what you're talking about) is used by many Southerners to represent Southern tradition and standing up against Northern Aggression. Many of these people have traditionally held racist views. My dip$*** boss is a flaming liberal, and even he admits growing up in SC that they used to refer to blacks as n******s in a casual manner. Racist or not, it must be acknowledged that the Confederate forces fought to preserve their idea of how the country ought to be. They felt completely disenfranchised by the North and took to heart the quote of "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Sadly, this included the right to farm with slavery, but those who actually fought were in no position to profit from that in the slightest. There's no such thing as Boston Hospitality or New York Chivalry. The South had a completely different ethos and way of life, and that's what they fought to protect against the North. [I am from the West coast so I don't really have a dog in this hunt, although I do hate liberals with a fiery passion]

[Skip]

What were those southerners fighting for then, if not states rights/sovereignty and protection of home and values against the North?

[snip]

IMHO, fighting/eliminating slavery was a just and necessary cause but shouldn't have happened at the expense of the 10th Amendment. History has an interesting way of cutting out the details and giving us a black-and-white version of reality. The South may very well given up on slavery without might makes right and the loss of 500,000+ Americans. It certainly would have been in the economic interests of the middle/working class in the South.

It was a fallacy to believe we needed the Civil War to eliminate slavery and it's a fallacy today to believe that we need to ban a symbol to eliminate racism or ban guns to eliminate violence.

After the Civil War, we were the United States in name only. Without the right to secede, executed or not, we were bound to become a bloated federal behemoth with state government as middle management. The Civil War made the Federal Reserve (banking cartel) possible, Federal income taxes which divert economic power from the states, Prohibition, NFA 1934, etc...

I really don't have a dog in this fight either. Most of my family (Irish) immigrated after the Civil War. The only document I have found connecting us to it a Union enlistment used for a mortgage from a distant relative. Having lived in the South for a short time, I have come to understand the symbol doesn't mean racial oppression to everyone.

[cstone]

The rebel flag was certainly co-opted as a symbol of the Army of Northern Virginia during the second Revolutionary War when many Southern states reacted to the integration of public institutions by force and the authority of the Federal government in the 1950s.

Whatever the rebel flag meant in 1865, it certainly took on it's more current symbolism during the civil rights movement for the 1950s and 1960s.

I support the right of the people of South Carolina doing what ever the dang well want to do with their public buildings.

Is anyone aware of any public building in Colorado that flies any flag other than the national or state flag?

[RMAC757]

What were those southerners fighting for then, if not states rights/sovereignty and protection of home and values against the North? According to this guy (writing for the VFW but hosted on a daughters of confederacy website lol http://vaudc.org/confed_vets.html ) only 6% of the South owned slaves, and 3% of the south owned the vast majority of the slaves. Now that's 6-3% of civilians, not soldiers. If you think that the top 3% of civilians who owned the majority of slaves were the same dudes in the front lines with fixed bayonets, I got a bridge to sell you. Johnnie Reb with the rifle was the poor farmer making up the other 94-97% of the Southern civilian population that could barely afford a piece of land to farm, let alone a slave. If any slave owners fought, they were probably generals or high up in the officers corps. It's kind of ridiculous to think that the 94% of the population who did not own slaves would all rise up to protect the big-wig plantation owners' abilities to use slaves.

Hell, before the war the politically-connected plantation owners put up literacy tests to keep the poor white southeners from voting because the latter would have better opportunities and a level playing-field to farm if slavery wasn't allowed and the big-wigs would have to pay them instead of using slave labor. Even if they weren't literate, it's difficult to think they were still so stupid that the average southern man couldn't see this for himself.

As far as racism goes, it's also a complete joke to think that the North was all roses & daisies towards blacks with feelings of complete equality. They didn't use slave labor, in part because their economy couldn't profit from it. The abolitionists were an exception, not the norm. Today of course you have everybody (well, popular figures who like to claim responsibility for the actions of their ancestors hundreds of years ago) claiming that they come from a line of abolitionists and civil rights leaders.

In my opinion, the Confederate flag (if you call it the correctly titled BFNV, no one's going to know what you're talking about) is used by many Southerners to represent Southern tradition and standing up against Northern Aggression. Many of these people have traditionally held racist views. My dip$*** boss is a flaming liberal, and even he admits growing up in SC that they used to refer to blacks as n******s in a casual manner. Racist or not, it must be acknowledged that the Confederate forces fought to preserve their idea of how the country ought to be. They felt completely disenfranchised by the North and took to heart the quote of "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Sadly, this included the right to farm with slavery, but those who actually fought were in no position to profit from that in the slightest. There's no such thing as Boston Hospitality or New York Chivalry. The South had a completely different ethos and way of life, and that's what they fought to protect against the North. [I am from the West coast so I don't really have a dog in this hunt, although I do hate liberals with a fiery passion]

I totally agree with your the fact most southerners were poor. There were really only 2(3) classes of people in the South. Rich plantation or business owners, poor whites and slaves ( obviously there were some very small exceptions to this ). For all intensive purposes the middle class didn't exist. The South was an aristocracy or caste system plain and simple. The rich wanted no part of the poor influencing their way of life. As to why "Johnny Reb" wanted to fight? I believe that question is as old as warfare itself. Wars have traditionally been dictated by the rich and fought by the poor in every part of the world. This country had not been at war for quite a while and as history teaches us, we have short memories when it comes to the horrors of it. Young men seek adventure, glory and the willingness to test themselves. The young men at the time lived in a very small sphere and most likely didn't understand fully why the two sides were about to clash. I've read in quite a few books that the desertion rate was extremely high twords the end of the war. I am sure many wondered after a time why they were fighting.

Your numbers actually speak volumes as to the disparity of wealth in the South. The rich aristocrats wanted no part of that changing. Throughout the last hundred or so years I think there has been a gentle restructuring of what the "Southern Way of Life" actually was prior to 1865. Most people were dirt poor, had little to no medicine or healthcare, barely any education to speak of and typically didn't own any land. It wasn't all mint juleps and cotillions.

I don't pretend to understand the southern way of life as I was raised in Minnesota. My father grew up in the south and half of my family still lives between South Carolina and Virginia. Their view on the Flag and honoring Confederate history is not all roses and nostalgia. I guess it all depends on perspective.

[electronman1729]

[Honey Badger282.8]

It's kind of ironic that this guys goal was to cause a race war and in the early days it had the exact opposite effect. It was only when the SJW's started blithering on about the Confederate flag that any racial lines were drawn. It's sad really.