Master Mechanics step inside-no crank no start 98 Civic (random)

[buffalobo]

Have had same/similar issue with mid 90's Civic and early 90's 4Runner, both times it was solenoid/starter.

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[muddywings]

Have had same/similar issue with mid 90's Civic and early 90's 4Runner, both times it was solenoid/starter.

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hmmm...this just took an interesting direction. Thanks a lot! just kidding. ok, another possible.

[muddywings]

First video was about a week or so ago:

no start, no crank, no nothing but the humming noise that the phone couldn't pick up

Second video is last friday. I had a no start. I took the phone out out, turned it on, started video then got it to start:


Honestly, neither of them tell much of a story if you ask me but figured I would upload them from my phone. Quality sucks of course

[brutal]

Car Mechanic gurus step inside and let me know what you think.

I have a 98 Honda Civic that I use as a commuter car. Bought the car as commuter when gas prices were touching high $3 a few years back so I would not have to drive the truck. I think I’m the second, maybe third owner. It wasn’t in prime condition but back then I was looking for anything that saved me on gas these were going fast and furious on Craigslist. I have had to do a few items like CV joint, leaky oil pan etc on it.

The Problem:
I get a random no start. I get lights, but no crank, no start. Just dead silence when I go to the start position except I do hear a faint humming noise from the passenger side dash. And it is very random.

Back in late July maybe, I jumped into the car in the morning, turned the key and got nothing. Bit perplexed, I took the key out, back in, and it started. (note: car sits in the garage when it’s home)
A week or two go by and same thing, but this time no amount of taking the key in/out, wiggling the key, turning the steering wheel helped. I jumped in my truck and went to work. I came home later in the day and it started fine.
Next day, this time instead of dead silence I got a horrible belt screeching noise. Jumped in the truck went to work. Came back, looked around under the hood at the start looking for possible loose wires on the starter, on the battery. Did not attempt a restart. (this was the only time I had a belt screeching noise)
I didn’t do a lot of investigating as I had to leave for a few days. My father-in-law came over while I was gone to see what he could see. Besides it being a bit flooded (my fault) it started fine.
Drive it a few weeks, no issues then when trying to leave work one day around 4 I get a no start. Dead silence (with the faint hum). Sit there perplexed for a bit try the key again and it starts up.
Next day it starts in the morning but again a no start again in the afternoon. (I was a parked downhill it a tough spot so I didn’t push it out). Got a ride home, drove the truck the next day. I tried it first thing in the morning and it started fine. (Drove the civic home and had a family member drive me back to work)
Since then, I get the same intermittent no start. Sometimes it will start a few seconds later on a second try, sometimes nothing. But now I park at work where I can just release the break and coast down a hill and bump start it. (makes for a much longer walk from the parking area to my office) (also, in case you wanted to know, yes you can bump start a car going in reverse too)
I bring it to a "honda guy" I know who works out of his own garage. (Full lift and everything) But of course it starts fine. I thinks it could be the key cylinder maybe switch and has felt enough bad ones that he messes with it for bit but says it still feels solid and with it starting fine it's hard to diagnosis. (He doesn't charge me anything for the quick look)
Last time I had a serious no start where nothing helped, I drove it to O’Reilly after I bumped it. Once at O’Reilly, it started fine. But they tested the battery, alternator, and starter with one of their fancy machines-all check strong with no issues. I even showed the techs there a short phone video of the symptoms and they were perplexed. One tech had me call his ‘master mechanic’ buddy. I described everything above and he had me look at ignition relay under the hood (which was on the passenger side). He asked if the prongs were blued as if they were arching. Nope, looked perfectly fine. He thought for sure that would be it. He recommended since those relays are only $8 to replace it and give it a shot. Replaced with a new relay. Still have the problem.
So, last Friday I took a look at two things-
I took apart the Main relay. Now, from my research, a main relay failure should give you a crank but no start (lack of fuel). When the main relay was unplugged that is exactly what I got. After removing the circuit board from the box housing the board looked fine except one solder point was rather brown. Picture:


I also pulled the steering column off and disconnected the starter switch from the key cylinder. The key cylinder prong looked find and the plastic on the starter switch looked find (no cracking). The solder points the start switch also looked fine. Pictures:






Now this is a commuter car that is supposed to save me money so I really don’t want to start tossing money at it left and right to make it work. My main theory is that this is electrical and when it’s warm out I have some connection with a week solder point and it doesn’t make the connection initially or not at all. The main relay doesn’t make a ton of sense based on my symptoms vs a bad main relay problem but the brown on the circuit board has me pondering—also that hum is from that area. My second though is that the lead inside of the starter switch that makes the connection could be bad which is why I get lights but nothing else (but that hum from the passenger side/main relay area has me confused).

So, master mechanics of the world wide web, any ideas?

The brown on that PCB appears to just be flux residue. Unless you inspect each pad with magnification, it's possible there are annular cracks at one or more pad that you can't see with the naked eye. That could certainly explain the intermittent symptoms. If you have it out and access to a quality soldering iron, I'd hit each pad with a little flux and reflow them all.

Hot iron, don't pussy foot around trying to use an undersized iron. Rapid heat application is better than a slow cook. Guessing at the size, I'd be running probably 625-650* on my iron to reflow those size pads. If they don't flow when fluxed in a second, they need more heat. Perhaps as high as 700* with proper technique.

I repair lots of old stereo gear for myself as an on again off again hobby and it's a common issue. More common than you can imagine.

[muddywings]

yup-have soldering iron and have done some hobby PCB board wiring before. That is on the to plan probably next weekend. Was hoping that I could get more no start conditions and see with the glovebox down if I could pin point the humming noise better.

[SideShow Bob]

Have had same/similar issue with mid 90's Civic and early 90's 4Runner, both times it was solenoid/starter.

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This, next time you get the no crank/start problem, tap on the solinoid fairly hard with the handle of a screwdriver.
If it starts up after that, there's your problem.

[buffalobo]

This, next time you get the no crank/start problem, tap on the solinoid fairly hard with the handle of a screwdriver.
If it starts up after that, there's your problem.

Yep, that was the test in both cases, after I did most all the stuff muddy has done.

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[jslo]

My wife's accord basically had the same issue. Shop found an issue with the alarm system wiring causing resistance to starter. Clipped the wire and no more problem.

[T. B. Turner]

Sometimes a problem that happens to starters on high mileage vehicles is that when the starters get worn the armature does not exactly where it should to activate when the juice is put to it, If you tap the starter with what ever you have handy rock, hammer, even by poking a broom stick to it from above. That tends to jar things back into place and it may work again. but it still will eventually need a new starter.

[muddywings]

Sometimes a problem that happens to starters on high mileage vehicles is that when the starters get worn the armature does not exactly where it should to activate when the juice is put to it, If you tap the starter with what ever you have handy rock, hammer, even by poking a broom stick to it from above. That tends to jar things back into place and it may work again. but it still will eventually need a new starter.

Copy all (and others).
I have a screwdriver and a ball-peen hammer sitting in the passenger seat. That's my plan is to start at the starter and work my way around.
Now to just wait for it to happen consistently enough to test it.
(also, this was my father-in-laws first theory, he has since moved on to electrical; time will tell.