Looming Government Shutdown (again)

[Irving]

It's difficult for many people to imagine, but one can certainly have a stake in the country without owning land.

[hurley842002]

It's difficult for many people to imagine, but one can certainly have a stake in the country without owning land.

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[Irving]

On one hand I agree that it's pointless to argue about something that won't change anyway. On the other hand, if only land owners were able to vote, I can pretty much guarantee that not only would I not own land today, but that "The American Dream" would have died in the cradle.

[Gman]

Why is voter registration so important for the Dems? It lets them know how many ballots they can stuff in the box. The actual voter isn't needed.

[TheGrey]

Excluding military, what positions in defense of the Union are you referencing? I have worked military, government and civilian contractor and agree there are slackers in all. The difference being there is a much higher probability that the civilian slacker will be dealt with. It is much more difficult in the government.

We all know there are hard workers and slackers within each group. It is not a an affront to gov. employees.

There are many DoD positions that armed forces retirees transfer to. To fill a billet with a civilian contractor would mean that in two years (or however long the contract is for) they may lose the worker and have to re-train them and have them undergo all the education and TDYs required is a drain on the limited resources. My understanding is there are specific billets filled with government workers, so they don't need to re-invent the wheel every time a contract is up.

[Aloha_Shooter]

On one hand I agree that it's pointless to argue about something that won't change anyway. On the other hand, if only land owners were able to vote, I can pretty much guarantee that not only would I not own land today, but that "The American Dream" would have died in the cradle.

Oh, you can? Because I can pretty much guarantee that the American Dream would NOT have died in the cradle. I can't speak to whether or not you'd own land today but lots of Americans would just as they do today. Why can I guarantee that? Because that is in fact how the country started and the initial restrictions on the power of the vote did not result in a self-powered restrictive autocracy. The American Dream extended and expanded throughout the country's history and only recently as the meaning of voting and civic duty have been diminished that the American Dream itself has diminished.

[Irving]

Sure, back when there were hardly enough people to populate the country. Perhaps I'm being dramatic, but what makes you think there'd be any land available to purchase by the time you came along? Owning land does absolutely zero to ensure that people aren't voting for what they think is best for them.

[Rumline]

People die, people move, land will always change hands. Maybe land would be more expensive, but oh well. The land ownership requirement helps to filter out people with no skin in the game from the electorate. "Tax payer" (as in someone from whom state and federal governments actually receive taxes) would suffice today.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Owning property was simply a means to make sure people with the power to vote had skin in the game. The problem that Madison et al foresaw was with people who contributed nothing being able to vote themselves more largess from the State. That's the problem we're living with now. You can change landowner for taxpayer or in a different bent, apply Heinlein's hypothetical civic test from Starship Troopers (having placed life on the line in national service), or come up with a different metric. The point is to make sure someone is a contributor rather than just a parasite before giving them the power of the vote.

My response was specifically against the idea that you could nearly guarantee the American Dream would have died if using the landowner test. The fact of the matter is that the landowner test WAS in effect and the American Dream not only didn't die, it flourished. The landowner test did go away but the point of the matter is that it did not hamper the American Dream. The only conditions which seem to have hampered the American Dream have been the recent changes which correlate in time with the OPPOSITE of the landowner test, to wit, we have devalued the meaning of American citizenship and the power of the vote. It was only when we decided faceless bureaucrats should be able to control what/how much we were able to spend or say, when we actually elected someone who DIDN'T believe in the American ideals, that the American Dream started to die. We elected the opposite recently and American Dream appears to have started to revive.

[kidicarus13]

Thursday @ midnight. With no changes since the last shutdown, we're primed for another one.