"Electric Vehicles are Actually Worse for the Environment than Internal Combustion Cars"

[Jer]

Cost,mass availability and abundant parts and indy mechanics.

So. Does autozone or napa sells tsla parts??

I am sure you saw RICHREBUILDS on YouTube.
I am not going to buy junk s/x/3 just to fix my Tesla after warranty.
ROFL.

Forums on cost of ownership of tesla after warranty expires.
This is very reason there are lots of people who are betting against TSLA (Short sellers).
When Saudis stop hedging against oil with TSLA.

https://www.google.com/search?q=owni...obile&ie=UTF-8

Now you want to deflect as if it's some sort of a question about availability of parts and cost to replace? You said specifically:

So far, N/A ICE tend to be one of the most reliable and low maintenance vehicles out there.

The simple fact is that EV is both more reliable AND much lower maintenance since there's basically none. It's really not even close in those two categories either.

No, NAPA doesn't sell Tesla battery packs but with as low maintenance as these cars are I won't have to go to a NAPA again other than for wiper blades and brake pads... the latter of which lasting people a quarter million miles or more in most cases due to regenerative braking since you rarely use your brakes.

So, would you rather have the REQUIREMENT to go to NAPA regularly but... hey, at least they usually have all the parts you need!... or would you rather not have to go to a parts store at all or be stranded on the side of a highway because [insert one of the thousands of moving parts ICE cars have here] failed and left you stranded?

A Tesla has a battery pack, motor, differential (open for reliability, simplicity, lack of maintenance and handling of torque) and axles. That's the end of the list of drive-train parts that can fail. Tesla also gives you a full 8 years and unlimited miles warranty on all of those items. People ask me how much the battery in my used Tesla will cost to replace when it fails to which my response is "What do I care? I have a warranty on this thing until 2023" and by then they'll be far, far cheaper anyway. I played a similar game with the Camry Hybrid we bought so long ago when they first came out. Everyone was so caught up with the cost of the battery and we drove that car nearly 100k miles w/o a single moment of problems. The amount we saved on gas far outweighed the price difference for the Hybrid and we had a car that was more fun to drive than the crappy base 4cyl Camry would have been. People kept talking about the $8k battery replacement cost and by the time we sold it that cost to replace (before it was even out of warranty) had already dropped to like $1,500. Tesla is building their own massive factories to increase volume specifically to lower price of the battery. By the time I need to worry about replacement cost they're be 1/4 the cost that they are now or probably even less.

Show me another car you can buy that's 3-years-old with 80k miles on it that will come with an unlimited mile warranty for 8 years from the date of manufacturer on all drive-train parts for free. They can afford to do this because of how reliable all of these parts are. Now that we're seeing worst-case-scenario torture use cars go beyond 400k with about 10% battery degradation it's making the need to replace seem like an even more irrelevant discussion. How many engines, transmissions, clutches, alternators, timing belts, water pumps, etc. would an ICE car need in half a million miles?

Now, if you want to get into a discussion about availability of said parts and cost to replace we certainly can but that's now what you presented as fact. It's crap like that that gets posted that people read and assume is true.

[MrPrena]

Now you want to deflect as if it's some sort of a question about availability of parts and cost to replace? You said specifically:



The simple fact is that EV is both more reliable AND much lower maintenance since there's basically none. It's really not even close in those two categories either.

No, NAPA doesn't sell Tesla battery packs but with as low maintenance as these cars are I won't have to go to a NAPA again other than for wiper blades and brake pads... the latter of which lasting people a quarter million miles or more in most cases due to regenerative braking since you rarely use your brakes.

So, would you rather have the REQUIREMENT to go to NAPA regularly but... hey, at least they usually have all the parts you need!... or would you rather not have to go to a parts store at all or be stranded on the side of a highway because [insert one of the thousands of moving parts ICE cars have here] failed and left you stranded?

A Tesla has a battery pack, motor, differential (open for reliability, simplicity, lack of maintenance and handling of torque) and axles. That's the end of the list of drive-train parts that can fail. Tesla also gives you a full 8 years and unlimited miles warranty on all of those items. People ask me how much the battery in my used Tesla will cost to replace when it fails to which my response is "What do I care? I have a warranty on this thing until 2023" and by then they'll be far, far cheaper anyway. I played a similar game with the Camry Hybrid we bought so long ago when they first came out. Everyone was so caught up with the cost of the battery and we drove that car nearly 100k miles w/o a single moment of problems. The amount we saved on gas far outweighed the price difference for the Hybrid and we had a car that was more fun to drive than the crappy base 4cyl Camry would have been. People kept talking about the $8k battery replacement cost and by the time we sold it that cost to replace (before it was even out of warranty) had already dropped to like $1,500. Tesla is building their own massive factories to increase volume specifically to lower price of the battery. By the time I need to worry about replacement cost they're be 1/4 the cost that they are now or probably even less.

Show me another car you can buy that's 3-years-old with 80k miles on it that will come with an unlimited mile warranty for 8 years from the date of manufacturer on all drive-train parts for free. They can afford to do this because of how reliable all of these parts are. Now that we're seeing worst-case-scenario torture use cars go beyond 400k with about 10% battery degradation it's making the need to replace seem like an even more irrelevant discussion. How many engines, transmissions, clutches, alternators, timing belts, water pumps, etc. would an ICE car need in half a million miles?

Now, if you want to get into a discussion about availability of said parts and cost to replace we certainly can but that's now what you presented as fact. It's crap like that that gets posted that people read and assume is true.

I wanna see you owning S model after your warranty expires.

[Irving]

My brother called me yesterday saying he saw a Porsche Cayanne S for sale for $5,800 and should we buy it. I told him no way in hell. Luxury cars are a shit show to repair and I guarantee you'd have to spend at least that much right up front to fix whatever issues are there.

[Jer]

I wanna see you owning S model after your warranty expires.

And just how radically different do you think that ownership will be? Personally, I feel like that's where these cars shine since you don't have to worry about all sorts of old and dying parts failing. That I didn't pay $150k for a brand new car and the depreciation that comes with this to get the reliability.

Your video shows a guy complaining about doing having to do the repairs himself yet he really isn't complaining if you watch it entirely. Midway through he talks about how easy the cars are to work on and I've already experienced this first-hand.

Example: One of the more common problems earlier versions of the Model S had is the door handles which he mentions. He says they're about $1,000 each which is partially true. At one time they were that expensive when they first came out. There was a common issue where someone (either at time of manufacturing or a tech during service) would zip tie the loose wires inside thinking this was better. The problem is that this would cause the wires that move with the handle to bend around corners and over time the thin wires would fail. The next version of the handles used cheaper gears in a money saving effort. The previous handles used gear parts made in Canada and the new ones used gear parts made in China. Ultimately this move saved less than a dollar per handle and had they known it would cause as many failures they never would have made the move. This door handle in total was less than $800 so the cost savings worked but the result was a gear that was cheap and would fail causing the handles to not present. The handle still worked it just didn't raise out to great you. The solution? Tesla sourced a better gear part that increased reliability drastically. Anyone can buy this $2 part which was a steel skeletonized gear, take apart the handle and replace yourself. The newest version of the handles have all of these upgrades in place and are pretty reliable long-term. Just part of the growing pains of designing something all-new that nobody has ever made before. It also is making a mountain out of a mole hill in terms of the engineering feats the car includes. I've had all four of mine replaced under warranty for free with all of the newest parts so I'm confident that these handles will last quite a while (quarter million+ miles?) and if they ever fail I'm out $2 and less than an hour of my time. Considering what it cost me to change the oil in my cars and how long it took each time I'd say I have that to spare and then some.

So in this example we're supposed to be upset about not being able to walk into a dealership and buying that complete door handle assembly for $1,000 versus fixing it yourself for $2?

This is but one example. The videos created even six months ago about not being able to work on your own car are way out of date. Tesla has made available the manuals with part #'s and schematics after pressure from people just like RichRebuilds and other used owners like myself. The aftermarket is growing rapidly with parts being made for Tesla cars. There are tons of used parts now on the secondary market and entire markets that exist to buy and sell used Tesla parts with very good prices.

If you're someone who, like me, prefers to do all of your own work on your cars none of this matters. I never walked into a Toyota dealership and paid retail price on brand new Toyota parts anyway so who cares? When my struts on my Tacoma wear out I'm not going into a Toyota dealership to pay full retail on OEM springs and struts when I can get aftermarket that are much better for a fraction of the price. Just another in the massive list of Tesla FUD.

[MrPrena]

And just how radically different do you think that ownership will be? Personally, I feel like that's where these cars shine since you don't have to worry about all sorts of old and dying parts failing. That I didn't pay $150k for a brand new car and the depreciation that comes with this to get the reliability.

Your video shows a guy complaining about doing having to do the repairs himself yet he really isn't complaining if you watch it entirely. Midway through he talks about how easy the cars are to work on and I've already experienced this first-hand.

Example: One of the more common problems earlier versions of the Model S had is the door handles which he mentions. He says they're about $1,000 each which is partially true. At one time they were that expensive when they first came out. There was a common issue where someone (either at time of manufacturing or a tech during service) would zip tie the loose wires inside thinking this was better. The problem is that this would cause the wires that move with the handle to bend around corners and over time the thin wires would fail. The next version of the handles used cheaper gears in a money saving effort. The previous handles used gear parts made in Canada and the new ones used gear parts made in China. Ultimately this move saved less than a dollar per handle and had they known it would cause as many failures they never would have made the move. This door handle in total was less than $800 so the cost savings worked but the result was a gear that was cheap and would fail causing the handles to not present. The handle still worked it just didn't raise out to great you. The solution? Tesla sourced a better gear part that increased reliability drastically. Anyone can buy this $2 part which was a steel skeletonized gear, take apart the handle and replace yourself. The newest version of the handles have all of these upgrades in place and are pretty reliable long-term. Just part of the growing pains of designing something all-new that nobody has ever made before. It also is making a mountain out of a mole hill in terms of the engineering feats the car includes. I've had all four of mine replaced under warranty for free with all of the newest parts so I'm confident that these handles will last quite a while (quarter million+ miles?) and if they ever fail I'm out $2 and less than an hour of my time. Considering what it cost me to change the oil in my cars and how long it took each time I'd say I have that to spare and then some.

So in this example we're supposed to be upset about not being able to walk into a dealership and buying that complete door handle assembly for $1,000 versus fixing it yourself for $2?

This is but one example. The videos created even six months ago about not being able to work on your own car are way out of date. Tesla has made available the manuals with part #'s and schematics after pressure from people just like RichRebuilds and other used owners like myself. The aftermarket is growing rapidly with parts being made for Tesla cars. There are tons of used parts now on the secondary market and entire markets that exist to buy and sell used Tesla parts with very good prices.

If you're someone who, like me, prefers to do all of your own work on your cars none of this matters. I never walked into a Toyota dealership and paid retail price on brand new Toyota parts anyway so who cares? When my struts on my Tacoma wear out I'm not going into a Toyota dealership to pay full retail on OEM springs and struts when I can get aftermarket that are much better for a fraction of the price. Just another in the massive list of Tesla FUD.

When lots of S models hit the used market or when many people junk their cars near/distant future,I am sure there would be some massive availability of parts.

When that happens, I am sure Tesla will lower the marginal cost due to massive quantity of parts.
Before than, not gonna consider it.


I already know too many Tesla owners and 2 without warranty. They fell into Elon's spell around wa y before you did. Of course ones with warranty are extremely happy. 2 without warranty is about to buy different vehicles.

They basically bought tesla with Tesla cap gain (in at 85/sr). Meaning they also did their homework early on.
I did my homework on TSLA even before this cult following, and it is just not for me.


Give you props for thinking about post warranty ownership, but I just cannot commit to that kinda labor that s model requires.
Looks way more complicated than 911 GT3.


I have no issues with Tesla owner. It is my preference not owing it. In fact, I would rather own used high maintenance Mclaren 650s than tesla 100d out of warranty.


I have 1 vehicle out of warranty, 1 is about to go in 2 years and I can manage to keep those. (And they are as b1tch to work on relative to porsche 997/991 911 ).


As for me,it is:
availability of parts.
Post warranty issues
Cost and availability of fixing at indy shop (complicated stuffs).

Again, it will most likely get solved near/distant future, but not now.

[skoodge]

Just curious, what about parts not part of the powertrain? Hope readily available are those of something needs fixed out of warranty?

But also, there are quite a few dealerships in the US that offer free lifetime powertrain warranties if you buy new from them. I know new vs used, but lifetime. You just have to keep up with scheduled maintenance. Most you can even take to any certified repair shop for the work.

[Jer]

When lots of S models hit the used market or when many people junk their cars near/distant future,I am sure there would be some massive availability of parts.

When that happens, I am sure Tesla will lower the marginal cost due to massive quantity of parts.
Before than, not gonna consider it.


I already know too many Tesla owners and 2 without warranty. They fell into Elon's spell around wa y before you did. Of course ones with warranty are extremely happy. 2 without warranty is about to buy different vehicles.

They basically bought tesla with Tesla cap gain (in at 85/sr). Meaning they also did their homework early on.
I did my homework on TSLA even before this cult following, and it is just not for me.


Give you props for thinking about post warranty ownership, but I just cannot commit to that kinda labor that s model requires.
Looks way more complicated than 911 GT3.


I have no issues with Tesla owner. It is my preference not owing it. In fact, I would rather own used high maintenance Mclaren 650s than tesla 100d out of warranty.


I have 1 vehicle out of warranty, 1 is about to go in 2 years and I can manage to keep those. (And they are as b1tch to work on relative to porsche 997/991 911 ).


As for me,it is:
availability of parts.
Post warranty issues
Cost and availability of fixing at indy shop (complicated stuffs).

Again, it will most likely get solved near/distant future, but not now.

Like I said, there already is a massive availability of used parts. The amount of people buying totaled cars to part-out has been rapidly growing for quite some time now. This isn't new either. There really isn't any part you can't buy from known and trustworthy sellers now.

Again, I think you're basing a lot of your opinion on information that was relevant six months to a year or more ago. This Tesla is rapidly evolving for the better and that's part of the point of these posts is to bring new and accurate information to a group that probably isn't actively seeking out this information every month or two on their own.

You keep talking about committing to labor that post-warranty Tesla ownership requires which is comical because you don't factor in the labor you invest all of the time of your ICE car. How much time you spend going to or at gas stations. How much time you invest to change your oil or take it someone who have changed. How much time you invest on timing belt changes or taking it somewhere. Even less complex maintenance like changing an air filter takes time, more on some cars. The list of maintenance items you have to deal with or pay someone else to deal with is long and this all takes time. Even with an ICE car there is a time commitment and it's actually much greater but we're so used to it that we don't consider it. But investing an hour to fix a door handle every quarter million miles... nah, that's just too much time commitment.

You only say it looks more complicated than a 911 GT3 because you don't understand it anywhere near as much as you claim you do. Simplified: thousands of moving parts versus dozens/hundreds of moving parts. EVs are FAR less complex than ICE vehicles. Guns are also scary things to those who don't understand how they work. Same concept.

You would rather own a McClaren 650 out of warranty than a Tesla Model S 100D? Now I know you're just being anti-EV because those things are in the shop more than they're on the road and the repair bills are ALWAYS in the tens of thousands of dollars. Engine rebuilds are the norm and good luck keeping a transmission under it. If that's your honest stance then you really know nothing about Tesla or it's reliability and maintenance or you're just trying to be argumentative.

[Jer]

Just curious, what about parts not part of the powertrain? Hope readily available are those of something needs fixed out of warranty?

But also, there are quite a few dealerships in the US that offer free lifetime powertrain warranties if you buy new from them. I know new vs used, but lifetime. You just have to keep up with scheduled maintenance. Most you can even take to any certified repair shop for the work.

Like I said multiple times now.... you can literally buy any part the car is made up of on the used market. Anything. The false narrative is that Tesla won't sell you parts and you can't get them anywhere so if something breaks you're screwed. That's simply not how it works.

That's IF you buy new and IF you buy from a dealer and IF you pay their absurd rate for the maintenance. It's a sales tactic. It's not an unlimited manufacturer's powertrain warranty which is what we're talking about here. That also stays with the original purchaser of the vehicle.

All new Teslas came with an 8 year unlimited mile powertrain warranty that follows the car to every owner for free. That's easily the most comprehensive warranty in the biz from ANY automobile manufacturer. Don't believe me? Here's a list: Click me. You'll see that Tesla is the ONLY one on that list that's unlimited powertrain warranty and there's a reason for that. The other best options are only 100k miles with most coming in at the 50-60k range. ICE vehicles will have more problems because they're not as reliable so if manufacturers tried to warranty them with unlimited miles for 8 years for whoever owned the car they'd be bankrupt after about 6 years. That alone should be enough proof of how much more reliable EVs are long term. Hell, the Volt was the most reliable car GM ever made.

[MrPrena]

Like I said, there already is a massive availability of used parts. The amount of people buying totaled cars to part-out has been rapidly growing for quite some time now. This isn't new either. There really isn't any part you can't buy from known and trustworthy sellers now.

Again, I think you're basing a lot of your opinion on information that was relevant six months to a year or more ago. This Tesla is rapidly evolving for the better and that's part of the point of these posts is to bring new and accurate information to a group that probably isn't actively seeking out this information every month or two on their own.

You keep talking about committing to labor that post-warranty Tesla ownership requires which is comical because you don't factor in the labor you invest all of the time of your ICE car. How much time you spend going to or at gas stations. How much time you invest to change your oil or take it someone who have changed. How much time you invest on timing belt changes or taking it somewhere. Even less complex maintenance like changing an air filter takes time, more on some cars. The list of maintenance items you have to deal with or pay someone else to deal with is long and this all takes time. Even with an ICE car there is a time commitment and it's actually much greater but we're so used to it that we don't consider it. But investing an hour to fix a door handle every quarter million miles... nah, that's just too much time commitment.

You only say it looks more complicated than a 911 GT3 because you don't understand it anywhere near as much as you claim you do. Simplified: thousands of moving parts versus dozens/hundreds of moving parts. EVs are FAR less complex than ICE vehicles. Guns are also scary things to those who don't understand how they work. Same concept.

You would rather own a McClaren 650 out of warranty than a Tesla Model S 100D? Now I know you're just being anti-EV because those things are in the shop more than they're on the road and the repair bills are ALWAYS in the tens of thousands of dollars. Engine rebuilds are the norm and good luck keeping a transmission under it. If that's your honest stance then you really know nothing about Tesla or it's reliability and maintenance or you're just trying to be argumentative.

I spend a lot of time on Ebay. The Parts needs to be more readily avaialble.

You keep talking about gas station time.
Opportunity cost plus the cost of gas.
Gas station time vs charging time.
I will take gas time.
No charging while parking at most of parking lot yet.

I watched a lot of videos of Tesla rebuilds and diy.
I haven't had opportunity to work on major Tesla stuff from 2 guys who own s out of warranty, but we all know it would be b1txh to work on.

I am not trolling because my preference is 650s over 100d out of warranty.
(Like some prefers diesel broDozer over ev)

[skoodge]

Like I said multiple times now.... you can literally buy any part the car is made up of on the used market. Anything. The false narrative is that Tesla won't sell you parts and you can't get them anywhere so if something breaks you're screwed. That's simply not how it works.

That's IF you buy new and IF you buy from a dealer and IF you pay their absurd rate for the maintenance. It's a sales tactic. It's not an unlimited manufacturer's powertrain warranty which is what we're talking about here. That also stays with the original purchaser of the vehicle.

All new Teslas came with an 8 year unlimited mile powertrain warranty that follows the car to every owner for free. That's easily the most comprehensive warranty in the biz from ANY automobile manufacturer. Don't believe me? Here's a list: Click me. You'll see that Tesla is the ONLY one on that list that's unlimited powertrain warranty and there's a reason for that. The other best options are only 100k miles with most coming in at the 50-60k range. ICE vehicles will have more problems because they're not as reliable so if manufacturers tried to warranty them with unlimited miles for 8 years for whoever owned the car they'd be bankrupt after about 6 years. That alone should be enough proof of how much more reliable EVs are long term. Hell, the Volt was the most reliable car GM ever made.

Just saying, "on the used market", so you're gambling with used parts? Not that I havent done that before, or new parts aren't a gamble either, but new vs used.

Also, as I said, yes they're not manufacturer warranties, but no you Dont have to go to the dealership to pay their obsurd rates; you just have to go to certified repairshop.

But so it's not a manufacturer lifetime warranty, it's still a dealership lifetime powertrain warranty. What's wrong with an aftermarket warranty? I had an aftermarket warranty on my previous car, wasnt a lifetime warranty, but no issues.