General vehicle thread

[MrPrena]

Tier 1 Ar15.....here I come......

[Jer]

I'll try this again now that I've got a little more time to invest on a response. Your posts about this topic tend to contain a lot of misinformation and assumptions that are difficult to address each assumption in a proper manner w/o long-winded responses so I'll try to keep this succinct while addressing each of your points....

It doesn't really take much of a planner. I looked at where the locations for Superchargers were. Since the route is pretty simple, I-25 south to Hatch, cross over through NM to I-10 then west to Tucson, I allowed for burning the first full charge down as much as possible to nearest charger before empty, allow thirty minutes for half charge then repeat every approximately 170 miles and assumed overnight charge was "free" time. Repeat for the next day. That's 4 charges for half an hour (5 charges on the return drive since it's not overnight) to get to Tucson versus 3 10-15 minute gas-ups. No, I don't stop for food on these road trips so no freebies there. I also didn't account for the fact that my average speed on this trip is generally somewhat faster than what the Tesla can sustain for long periods without the battery overheating (as demonstrated on Nurburgring) nor did I ding the Tesla solution for any extra time to get off the interstate and get to the charger since those are probably just single-digit minutes compared to the gas stations. This very basic analysis was all about time and only time.

You've drawn a lot of conclusions based on assumptions which are never solid decisions.

Take the time to play around with either Tesla Trip Planner, A Better Route Planner or (ideally) both. You really need to get a "feel" for how EVs work before you make the absolute decision that they're just not for you based on assumptions and guesses. Up front I want to get out the point that your situation isn't even 1% it's more like a 0.000001% situation when compared against miles cars are used by the average driver. That being said, I'm not ready to firmly say "yeah, your situation is impossible with an EV" because I don't believe that's the case. In fact, I believe that if you're more flexible with some aspects of your trip your end result will actually be a more enjoyable trip. All we're talking about is #'s on paper and we haven't addressed the most important aspects of the trip which are how do you feel at the end of your trip? I can tell you that long road trips in an EV are significantly less taxing on your CNS. In an ICE vehicle you don't even realize how tired and wore out you are from the vibrations and sounds until you do so in an EV and log a full day of driving. This has to translate into safer operation when your senses aren't fried. Which brings up another important point; safety. How safe are you during said trip? In a Tesla w/Autopilot you're less likely to get into an accident despite what the media will have you think over one or two accidents that have happened over millions of miles of autopilot operation. Even if you get into an accident (which is less likely as I just mentioned) you are substantially less likely to get injured in said accident according to the NHSTA's results of their "Probability of Injury" test done for every vehicle manufacturer. The three Tesla vehicles blew every other manufacturer out of the water in this very important test of safety. Did I mention that your trip will either be substantially less expensive or possibly even free depending on the EV you choose?

Those all seem like pretty solid reasons to put forth the effort to see if it's something that will actually work for you and not just guess and make assumptions based on aging information you received in the past or FUD from outlets trying to drive clicks with headlines.

Basing your entire driving experience on a 0.000001% situation doesn't seem like the best way to go about things. If I did that I would be driving a dump truck everywhere for the once a year I need to move several tons of landscaping rock. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a vehicle that does the 99.99999% stuff better and just break up my loads into smaller bites the one time I need to complete that task? Knowing & understanding the limitations of the tool can certainly make use of that tool better versus trying to force it outside of it's design.

As far as Tesla cars not being able to sustain higher speeds for longer duration I call BS. I personally have exceeded the speed limit across I80 for massive portions (almost the entire time from Sparks, NV to Cheyenne, WY but won't get into specifics for legality reasons) and the car behaved flawlessly. There is also a well-known YouTuber that did a similar experiment over numerous trips across Finland to find the most efficient speed for Teslas and it was actually into the triple digits. I think this is yet another example of "I heard something once so therefore it must be true across all situations and all vehicles" which simply isn't the case. Even if it were true, if you want to base your entire 99.99999% of driving based on the off-chance you might end up on the Nurburgring then go right ahead and live with a race-prepped Nissan GTR the other 99.99999% of your driving.

Would you use a screwdriver if you were a roofer to drive nails just because one time you were replacing a roof and the owner had a weather station that required a Philips screwdriver to take out three screws to move it out of the way?

I did see that Tesla is using new motors that extend their range about 10% on the new models.

The important part of this is that there wasn't even a technology breakthrough to achieve this. They're simply putting the newer motor from the Model 3 they started building years ago into a car that was designed 7 years ago. 10% range increase and it's not even a recent advancement. Think about that for a minute because it's an important point: No other manufacturer has built a car yet that can compete with Tesla's Model S that was designed and built 7 years ago. I've heard for years of all of these "Tesla Killers" coming "soon" and it's now April of 2019 and we don't even have one that remotely competes with Tesla's 7 year old car in terms of range, performance and charging capability.

Actually, the only part of owning a full electric at this time that was even remotely interesting was seeing what effect it had on this road trip. Other, longer road trips into the wilds would be even worse but this one seemed to be an easy check given the plethora of Supercharger stations on the route and the fact that the hotel at the end was also a Supercharger. If I had enough room in the garage for a dedicated commute-only car (and budget for same), it would be a different question. If I was still living in Hawaii where a "road trip" is going from Hawaii Kai to the North Shore, definitely a different question. If I had kids and was doing a more leisurely road trip like my family did 40 years, different question.

We've had these discussions in the other thread and I'm not panning Teslas or other electric vehicles across the board. Just offering a data point because I actually did look at it and even thought about talking to my cousin about it during our family vacation this summer (he's a regional sales manager for Tesla). As I said, Porsche's design cuts down the charge time and improves the range to the point of being nearly equivalent to traditional gas-ups which makes it more viable for my kind of road trip. I'm kind of looking forward to the prospect of a used Taycan sometime in the future. Just not now with the present configurations and logistics.

"Porsche's design" doesn't exist. Period. I'm not debating vaporware because it's a fools chore. Yet you talk about it like it's the pinnacle of EVs for you so let's dissect the numbers, shall we? You want to discuss their "800v charge system" like it's a thing and it isn't. Besides, voltage is only part of the equation. Porsche claims 250 miles of range in only 15 minutes which, by my math, is about 1,000 miles per hour charge rate. Tesla's v3 Supercharging is doing 1,000 miles per hour charge rate on Model 3's right now. Today. In a car you can buy and a Supercharger you can plug into in the real world as a consumer. Porsche claims 280-310 miles of range and we've seen lately how that equates in the real world (*cough*e-tron*cough*) so it likely won't even reach those numbers. The Model 3 gets 325 miles of range. Help me understand what it is about this vaporware Porsche that will usher in the EV era for you that isn't already available today.

This idea that you need a 2nd car for "serious" driving and use an EV for local commuting only is based on poor information or incredibly out-of-date information. We're not talking about Nissan Leaf EVs here with 80 miles of range under perfect conditions and no Supercharger network.

You appear to be a victim of confirmation bias and nothing I add to this conversation is going to make you understand that exactly what you describe is entirely possible. It could potentially be made even better but you don't want to believe it is and therefore nothing can sway you. I'm tempted to get in my car right now and drive to Tuscon and chronicle the entire journey to show you it's not only possible but will be a safer, less expensive and more enjoyable trip but it's pointless. Countless videos like this already exist online. If you truly cared you would have already found them rather than looking for all the reasons it's not possible. I mean, if you're not even committed enough to giving it a fair chance to "talk to your cousin about it" at any point during your family vacation then I'm not sure you're very committed to giving it a fair and unbiased consideration at all.

[Erni]

Jer,
What I want to know is there an independent mechanic network for EVs out of warranty. I heard tesla is horrible supporting second hand cars.

[ChickNorris]

When I was senior in high school , I wanted to buy a Lotus v8 turbo version of Esprit Turbo. Sadly myself was a highschool student with no cash.

1 cool facts. During the 90s Lotus Elan was basically hhad Kia badge.
I found out when I watch one of K-drama during 90s.
"Why is there so many Lotus Elan in Seoul?"

I was replied by my car friend with
"You idiot! That is Kia."


.......

https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/...old-kia-262929

THAT I did not know, thanks. ;-)

[Jer]

Jer,
What I want to know is there an independent mechanic network for EVs out of warranty. I heard tesla is horrible supporting second hand cars.

The information that Tesla doesn't support second hand cars out of warranty is inaccurate. You can buy parts just like a Toyota. Hell, a guy I know bought an upgraded LTE radio/GSM card for his and even installed it himself.... using the instructions Tesla gave him when he asked. There was a time when they didn't support salvage title vehicles but now there's even a re-certification process where they will inspect a repaired car to make sure it's been repaired properly.

[brutal]

The information that Tesla doesn't support second hand cars out of warranty is inaccurate. You can buy parts just like a Toyota. Hell, a guy I know bought an upgraded LTE radio/GSM card for his and even installed it himself.... using the instructions Tesla gave him when he asked. There was a time when they didn't support salvage title vehicles but now there's even a re-certification process where they will inspect a repaired car to make sure it's been repaired properly.

For a hefty fee of course.

[Gman]

Gotta' do something to try and recover the $1.5B in cash they burned in Q1.

[MrPrena]

Gotta' do something to try and recover the $1.5B in cash they burned in Q1.

No worries.
South African Emperor Elon just need to go "Oh, Model 4? Model 5 under $25k?" and those TSLA FANTARD will go LONG.
Few weeks later, they will dilute on fantards' ass.

[Aloha_Shooter]

I'll try this again now that I've got a little more time to invest on a response. Your posts about this topic tend to contain a lot of misinformation and assumptions that are difficult to address each assumption in a proper manner w/o long-winded responses so I'll try to keep this succinct while addressing each of your points....

Interesting allegations in that everything I've posted has come from Tesla itself, Teslarati or other Tesla fora, or EV-oriented websites/fora. Tesla owners themselves have posted the info about not being able to complete the near 13 miles of Nurburgring without going into limp mode. I got the battery overheat diagnosis from one Tesla post but another one attributed it to software settings -- the latter is probably a likely immediate cause in order to prevent the former but I don't know for sure. If it's really software, it's quite likely Tesla will unveil some kind of track mode for the Model S software sometime in the future and Musk has already stated the Model 3 will be more track friendly. I don't drive Nurburgring itself but it models my road trips much more accurately than the drag race some Tesla fanbois allude to when they keep touting Ludicrous Mode.

While your posts are usually based solidly on personal experience or facts, your response below actually has a lot of defensive misinformation and/or misunderstanding of what I posted. I outlined a specific type of road trip that I investigated and concluded the current state of Tesla Model S doesn't meet my requirements for. I gave the vehicle every benefit of doubt that I could but that's not good enough for you because you are SO defensive of your Tesla-love.

You've drawn a lot of conclusions based on assumptions which are never solid decisions.

Take the time to play around with either Tesla Trip Planner, A Better Route Planner or (ideally) both. You really need to get a "feel" for how EVs work before you make the absolute decision that they're just not for you based on assumptions and guesses.

Mmmm ... no, I don't. Tesla themselves and other owners (including yourself) provide the info that says the best way to do a Tesla road trip is to start off at full charge, go to near full-depletion, and do half-charges along the way. That translates to roughly 170 miles between segements and there are Supercharger stations available on the route at roughly those intervals. Tesla themselves provide the figure of 30 minutes for a 170-mile half-charge -- in fact, their planner has stops that are longer than that due to the distances between their recommended stops. That compares to my real world experience of 3 gas stops of 10-15 minutes each to do the trip each direction (and most of my gas stops are closer to 7-10 minutes but I used the 15 minutes for comparison, again, to give the Tesla the benefit of the doubt).

Up front I want to get out the point that your situation isn't even 1% it's more like a 0.000001% situation when compared against miles cars are used by the average driver.

I never said it was. I even said things would be different with a different kind of road trip in mind. However, I outlined the case of enjoying the road while spending as little time meandering on it as possible and outlined the math. You just can't accept that the Tesla is not the right solution in all cases. Specifically, I leave for Tucson at the end of the work day, overnight in NM (I choose Socorro but you can pick another town), and arrive in Tucson in time to grab lunch before checking into my hotel. That gives me 2-3 hours to unpack, get my camera equipment ready, and get my stuff ready for the next conference day before going down to the cocktail hour meet-and-greet and artshow. After the convention, I leave Sunday around 11 or 12 and get back to COS in time to get some sleep before work -- including grabbing a sandwich for lunch at the first gas stop on the way out of Tucson.

That being said, I'm not ready to firmly say "yeah, your situation is impossible with an EV" because I don't believe that's the case. In fact, I believe that if you're more flexible with some aspects of your trip your end result will actually be a more enjoyable trip. All we're talking about is #'s on paper and we haven't addressed the most important aspects of the trip which are how do you feel at the end of your trip?

I can tell you that long road trips in an EV are significantly less taxing on your CNS. In an ICE vehicle you don't even realize how tired and wore out you are from the vibrations and sounds until you do so in an EV and log a full day of driving.

Okay, at this point, you're deviating into fanboi BS. Vibrations from the road itself (especially on I-10 or the cross-over between I-25 and I-10) far FAR outweigh any engine vibrations unless you're driving an ancient or poorly maintained POS. If you don't believe me, log the vibrations on your smartphone and compare. You personally may "feel better" -- the placebo effect is very real for our mental perceptions -- but the physics of your claim is sheer nonsense.

This has to translate into safer operation when your senses aren't fried. Which brings up another important point; safety. How safe are you during said trip? In a Tesla w/Autopilot you're less likely to get into an accident despite what the media will have you think over one or two accidents that have happened over millions of miles of autopilot operation. Even if you get into an accident (which is less likely as I just mentioned) you are substantially less likely to get injured in said accident according to the NHSTA's results of their "Probability of Injury" test done for every vehicle manufacturer. The three Tesla vehicles blew every other manufacturer out of the water in this very important test of safety. Did I mention that your trip will either be substantially less expensive or possibly even free depending on the EV you choose?

Depends on how you calculate the cost. It's pay me now or pay me later. Buying used certainly lowers the pay-me-now factor. I have dealt with coders for decades. I don't trust them enough to let Auto-pilot do the driving for me (assist my driving is a whole other matter). It's VERY analogous to the current situation with the 737MAX aircraft -- experienced pilots have looked at the 2 crashes that caused all the furor and said the fundamental cause was that the pilots let runaway trim get away from them. That's not to say Boeing's software didn't make the situation worse but it shouldn't have got that bad if the pilots were paying attention to their flying in the first place. Auto-pilot does the same thing when driving. IMO, the driver should drive. Audiobooks, radio, whatever, can make the drive easier or more enjoyable but they still need to drive -- or take transportation that has someone else paying attention to what they are doing.

Those all seem like pretty solid reasons to put forth the effort to see if it's something that will actually work for you and not just guess and make assumptions based on aging information you received in the past or FUD from outlets trying to drive clicks with headlines.

Which is exactly what I did. I ran the numbers and in my particular case, they didn't work out. You just refuse to admit there are any cases where ICE beats EV.

Basing your entire driving experience on a 0.000001% situation doesn't seem like the best way to go about things. If I did that I would be driving a dump truck everywhere for the once a year I need to move several tons of landscaping rock. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a vehicle that does the 99.99999% stuff better and just break up my loads into smaller bites the one time I need to complete that task? Knowing & understanding the limitations of the tool can certainly make use of that tool better versus trying to force it outside of it's design.

Altering my driving style and experience in order to justify purchase of a particular vehicle isn't the best way either. As I said, if I had room in the garage for another vehicle (and wanted to make the budget for it), I'd certainly add an EV for commuting. The current generation with the Model S still don't fit my road trip style because of the time required to recharge. Future generations can change that but I have zero interest in the Model 3.

As far as Tesla cars not being able to sustain higher speeds for longer duration I call BS. I personally have exceeded the speed limit across I80 for massive portions (almost the entire time from Sparks, NV to Cheyenne, WY but won't get into specifics for legality reasons) and the car behaved flawlessly. There is also a well-known YouTuber that did a similar experiment over numerous trips across Finland to find the most efficient speed for Teslas and it was actually into the triple digits. I think this is yet another example of "I heard something once so therefore it must be true across all situations and all vehicles" which simply isn't the case. Even if it were true, if you want to base your entire 99.99999% of driving based on the off-chance you might end up on the Nurburgring then go right ahead and live with a race-prepped Nissan GTR the other 99.99999% of your driving.

You can argue with the other Teslarati in that case. They're the one who posted specifics and you can find numerous YouTube videos demonstrating the Model S's inability to complete Nurburgring without going into limp mode (their term, not mine). As I said, I don't drive Nurburgring but it's a better analog to my road trips than a drag race. I have in fact sustained track speeds on these road trips for a considerable length of time past the 8 mins that the Model S seems to be able to. Like you, I won't go into specifics for legal reasons.

Would you use a screwdriver if you were a roofer to drive nails just because one time you were replacing a roof and the owner had a weather station that required a Philips screwdriver to take out three screws to move it out of the way?

Again, now you're just deviating into fanboi nonsense.

The important part of this is that there wasn't even a technology breakthrough to achieve this. They're simply putting the newer motor from the Model 3 they started building years ago into a car that was designed 7 years ago. 10% range increase and it's not even a recent advancement. Think about that for a minute because it's an important point: No other manufacturer has built a car yet that can compete with Tesla's Model S that was designed and built 7 years ago. I've heard for years of all of these "Tesla Killers" coming "soon" and it's now April of 2019 and we don't even have one that remotely competes with Tesla's 7 year old car in terms of range, performance and charging capability.

Ummmm ... no. The Taycan has gone through years of testing, including driving at (and completing) Nurburgring. It uses a lot of the data and knowledge Porsche gleaned from the 919 hybrid. It's not vaporware, they start production this summer and doubled their anticipated production from 20,000 to 40,000 in the first year due to the demand. They just didn't bother going into production until they were sure it was what they knew Porsche drivers would expect from the get go and they built a brand new factory for it so had to wait for that to finish. I believe the P100D and maybe even the P90D has a longer range from full charge but the Taycan will have much quicker charging so is more suitable for long distance road trips.

"Porsche's design" doesn't exist. Period. I'm not debating vaporware because it's a fools chore. Yet you talk about it like it's the pinnacle of EVs for you so let's dissect the numbers, shall we? You want to discuss their "800v charge system" like it's a thing and it isn't. Besides, voltage is only part of the equation. Porsche claims 250 miles of range in only 15 minutes which, by my math, is about 1,000 miles per hour charge rate. Tesla's v3 Supercharging is doing 1,000 miles per hour charge rate on Model 3's right now. Today. In a car you can buy and a Supercharger you can plug into in the real world as a consumer. Porsche claims 280-310 miles of range and we've seen lately how that equates in the real world (*cough*e-tron*cough*) so it likely won't even reach those numbers. The Model 3 gets 325 miles of range. Help me understand what it is about this vaporware Porsche that will usher in the EV era for you that isn't already available today.

Again, fanboi nonsense. Porsche's design is real hardware. I expect some first year issues as with any new model but it's real. What doesn't exist (yet) is the Ultracharger network. That's getting built out and it will probably take as much time to build out as Tesla's Supercharger network has.

This idea that you need a 2nd car for "serious" driving and use an EV for local commuting only is based on poor information or incredibly out-of-date information. We're not talking about Nissan Leaf EVs here with 80 miles of range under perfect conditions and no Supercharger network.

Again, fanboi nonsense. I need the 1st car for serious driving. The EV would be the second car (actually, third) until it's able to meet the all the needs for the first or second vehicles do. When they do, I'm certainly open to replacing my current vehicles with one that meets the road trip and/or camping capabilities of the other two.

You appear to be a victim of confirmation bias

Hahahaha ... pot, meet kettle.

and nothing I add to this conversation is going to make you understand that exactly what you describe is entirely possible. It could potentially be made even better but you don't want to believe it is and therefore nothing can sway you. I'm tempted to get in my car right now and drive to Tuscon and chronicle the entire journey to show you it's not only possible but will be a safer, less expensive and more enjoyable trip but it's pointless. Countless videos like this already exist online. If you truly cared you would have already found them rather than looking for all the reasons it's not possible. I mean, if you're not even committed enough to giving it a fair chance to "talk to your cousin about it" at any point during your family vacation then I'm not sure you're very committed to giving it a fair and unbiased consideration at all.

Mmmm ... no, you fail to read or comprehend because you can't accept that Tesla isn't the solution to everything. I don't drive the fun car in hail (willingly) or when there's 1.5+ inches of snow out. I don't try to haul cargo with it. I don't attempt to speed with the Expedition. No vehicle designed is good everything. You are perfectly welcome to drive to Tucson if you want and you will probably enjoy it. However, my scenario is pretty specific: leave COS at the end of the work day, overnight in NM, and arrive in western Tucson just after lunch. Depart Tucson near noon and get back to COS in time to get some sleep before work. How much time you spend in Tucson is up to you (SpaceFest is 3 days). Adding 2+ hours to the actual road time on the way down wouldn't really be so bad but adding it to the return pushes a one day long haul into two days or requires leaving earlier (thereby missing some events). I never said that was representative of everyone's experience or driving desires (it's also not the only scenario but that's a different story), I said this is a trip I do annually, I honestly investigated the Tesla Model S when I looked at the current extent of the Supercharger network and the numbers just don't work at this time. I allowed for the fact that some time in the future, some EV probably will but you just can't accept the fact the Model S isn't some kind of panacea. I gave it a fair chance but the numbers just don't support doing the trip the way I like to do it ... I may still talk to my cousin about whether he can arrange some kind of road trip loaner but I doubt he can and by the numbers, I'd still have to alter the trip significantly to make it work.

[MrPrena]

Jer,
What I want to know is there an independent mechanic network for EVs out of warranty. I heard tesla is horrible supporting second hand cars.

Yup. As I mention in the past about the same issue and on richrebuilds.
We all know how to read todays news and new info on forums on anything.
And I agree with you.


Published by CNBC TODAY (NOT 10 FUKING YEARS AGO)

Over the years, Benoit said, followers increasingly reached out asking where to get a good deal on a spare part, or offering to pay him to fix their cars when Tesla service centers couldn?t or wouldn?t do so.

In the winter of 2018, Benoit partnered with a former parts manager for Tesla, Chris Salvo, to open up their own repair shop. Salvo is also the founder of EV Tuning, an online store that sells parts and accessories to electric vehicle owners.

While they have both been holding down day jobs, this spring they broke ground on their Electrified Garage in Seabrook, New Hampshire.

?I was never thinking of opening my own shop,? Benoit said. ?But I?d been denied so many times by Tesla that I really started thinking there?s got to be a bigger picture here, another player who can help others and get parts as well. Now there?s a place where people can go for third-party EV repair.?

Their typical customers own Model S cars out of warranty, or Model 3′s with after-market parts that have negated their warranties so they can?t get Tesla do work for them, according to Benoit and Salvo.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/26/tesl...ning-shop.html