California Prop 8 Overturned By Openly Gay Judge

[Byte Stryke]

And that happened when? Versus when Muslims took a hand, when? I didn't say or even elude to the fact that religion hasn't had it's fair share of problems, but that the GOOD of the religion is many times what has driven societal norm. I am no denier, I know full well what the Catholic church has done in it's past.

It's funny how the past is "ancient history and irrelevant" when it doesn't support a view one has, but is "completely relevant" when it DOES. Case in point, so many people I know will talk about how sick they are of blacks crying slavery or jews crying holocaust, both of which are far more recent history than the inquisition or Queen Mary.

While priests have been guilty of grave sins in recent history (less than 1% of all priests get 100% of the bad press by the way), I don't think we burned someone at the stake for witchcraft or racked someone for opposing views in some time (and never of either in America - that would be the Quakers).

And yes, SOME churches (Episcopalians) have "changed with the wind" but the Catholic church is far less flexibile in it's doctrines than some other churches are and I can rest assured they will not recognize gay marriage any day soon.

If I'm a bit defensive about my beliefs then I apologize in advance, but it's what I believe in and one shoe most certainly does not fit all and I'm not trying to convince others to believe what I believe, I just simply state my opinion.

Please do not take any of that as a personal attack... it was intended to point out the flaws in labeling.

and as far as a "ancient history and irrelevant".
have ya seen the news lately? Yeah the Muslims are still a tad pissed about it and they are blaming Jews and Christians.
Germany? Still illegal to be a national socialist (Nazi) or to bear any emblem, mark or symbolism of that party.

So while I Can completely understand your position in regards to your faith, I find a few things extremely offensive.
The US Cavalry, The Washington Redskins, Cleveland Indians, Jeep Cherokees, etc on and on.
Because, while it might be Ancient history to some, Genocide is still Genocide and it's wrong.

sarcasm ahead....
Can you imagine the outrage there would be if we had a team called the Atlanta ******s? or how about the California slopes? Boston Paddys?
My Personal favorite would have to be the New York Kikes.

[Anton]

Can you imagine the outrage there would be if we had a team called the Atlanta ******s?

Is that a basketball team?

[Ranger]

sarcasm ahead....
Can you imagine the outrage there would be if we had a team called the Atlanta ******s? or how about the California slopes? Boston Paddys?
My Personal favorite would have to be the New York Kikes.

I don't think these would work. Nor would the San Francisco Queers.

[jmg8550]

I agree with Stuart and Byte, obviously.

Furthermore, the only real reason I see to be against gay marriage is religion. I see no other actual reason to be against it. Some people seem to forget that the amendment that came before our beloved 2nd calls for freedom of religion, and defining a seperation of church and state.

There is no logical reason gay marriage is not allowed. I also hate how the Republican party has become so focused on religion. It makes me sick.

Please show me where in the U.S. Constitution or the Bill of Rights that defines a clear separation of church and state. Some of our founders were very religious and used their particular religion to influence them while writing our beloved Constitution and Bill of Rights. Also I don't get why you are so against religion, yet all for gay "marriage". I'm not a very religious person, but I do have respect for the church and a persons religious beliefs. I also believe that homosexuality is completely wrong. My opinion, If they want to call their relationship a "civil union" fine. Don't call it a marriage. As stated earlier, marriage is a religious experience. Most churches do not support gays.

[DeusExMachina]

Please show me where in the U.S. Constitution or the Bill of Rights that defines a clear separation of church and state. Some of our founders were very religious and used their particular religion to influence them while writing our beloved Constitution and Bill of Rights. Also I don't get why you are so against religion, yet all for gay "marriage". I'm not a very religious person, but I do have respect for the church and a persons religious beliefs. I also believe that homosexuality is completely wrong. My opinion, If they want to call their relationship a "civil union" fine. Don't call it a marriage. As stated earlier, marriage is a religious experience. Most churches do not support gays.

The 1st Amendment. A term originally used by Thomas Jefferson, and defined by the Supreme Court. Have fun reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separat...urch_and_state

I don't see anyone's sexuality as right or wrong, especially based upon Christianity's definition of right and wrong. Homosexuality doesn't affect me in any way, and neither does gay marriage. I think its wrong to condemn someone for being the way they are, or for doing what makes them happy (as long as it does not affect anyone else).

Maybe its because I'm not religious, but I don't see any difference between "civil union" and "marriage".

I also see no issue with someone being gay and religious. Plenty of people are gay and religious, some of them hide the former for the sake of the latter. Is that more right than being openly (I don't mean flaming, that shit is irritating) gay and religious?

[jake]

I'm not a very religious person, but I do have respect for the church and a persons religious beliefs. I also believe that homosexuality is completely wrong.

If you're not religious, why do you think that it's wrong? Or when you say 'wrong,' do you mean 'a bit gross'?

[Jumpstart]

Please show me where in the U.S. Constitution or the Bill of Rights that defines a clear separation of church and state. Some of our founders were very religious and used their particular religion to influence them while writing our beloved Constitution and Bill of Rights. Also I don't get why you are so against religion, yet all for gay "marriage". I'm not a very religious person, but I do have respect for the church and a persons religious beliefs. I also believe that homosexuality is completely wrong. My opinion, If they want to call their relationship a "civil union" fine. Don't call it a marriage. As stated earlier, marriage is a religious experience. Most churches do not support gays.

I concur.

[Byte Stryke]

OK.
I had told myself that I wasn't going to feed the scary place and freak out the religious right, but here goes.

• I was a Divorced (thus Excommunicated) disgruntled Catholic graduate of "Our Lady of the Broken Hand".
• My First Marriage was to a nice German Protestant Girl that had already had a child out of wedlock! (I am Soooo Going to hell at this point)
• Then after that fell over She switched teams! (There were a few guys after me, so its not all my fault )
• I Met and Married a Catholic Woman that had already had a child out of wedlock again!
• We were married In the ISLAMIC State of KUWAIT!
• We were married By a MUSLIM! (Express ticket, First Class to hell)
• There were 2 MUSLIM Witnesses!

Forget the Tinfoil Hats, I Need some Fireproof pants because Im Headin ta Hell!

Now, all bullshit aside. I believe in God I just don't believe that God hates us as much as the Dictators and Fear-Mongers in the various churches of the world would have you believe.

If I am going to hell, at least I can sit next to Ann Rice on the way there.

[Byte Stryke]

I'm not a very religious person, but I do have respect for the church and a persons religious beliefs. I also believe that homosexuality is completely wrong.

First, you do know the difference between religious beliefs and a Church, correct? and Which Church exactly is it you are referring to in Regards to respecting
So if a Person has no religious Beliefs or believes that Homosexuality or lesbianism is right for them, isn't that their belief in absentia of a religion?

Secondly, Since Christianity is one of the few religions that prohibits Polygamy, do you think its OK that (Some) Pagans, (Orthodox)Mormons and Muslims have more than one WIFE, Since its part of their Belief systems or church?


Just wondering
Personally, two Consenting Adults, Closed door, I Dont care... Just dont force the dog to watch.

[theGinsue]

I've stayed out of this discussion for all of it's first 6 pages. I can no longer resist sharing my position on this issue.

If you're not religious, why do you think that it's wrong? Or when you say 'wrong,' do you mean 'a bit gross'?

Religion doesn't hold a monopoly on morality. Many individuals who don't possess a faith in the existance of a supreme deity still have morals.

Of course, with that said, MOST of what we identify as morally right and proper comes to us from religious teachings.

My faith not only gives me hope but it also provides me with a moral compass.

Next, my opinion......

Calling a motorcycle a car doesn't make it a car - it's still a motorcycle. Sure, they are both used as forms of personal transportation, but they are not the same thing.

By the same token, for thousands of years the definition of marriage has been the (typically) religious and legal union of a male and a female (human). Just in the past 25 or fewer years has there been a movement to authorize/legalize and re-define "marriage" to include the union of homosexuals. This is not marriage. I have no problems calling it a civil union or any other such thing, but it is NOT a marriage - period.

[Dripping Sarcasm]
Now, as far as the whole "gay marriage should be legal" thing and anyone who opposed such a view is a bigot. Perhaps you're right - so long as the partners are adults and consenting, what difference does it make what the similarities or differences are. In fact, I don't think anyone has the right to deny my partner and I happiness just because I'm a male and he is a male sheep. We are both of "adult" age and we both seem to be consenting (it's so difficult to translate sheep language to know for sure).

I mean, why not - if it makes us happy, who are we hurting? We just want the right to be "married" like everyone else. What sort of a bigot are you to deny us? Obviously, anyone who would deny this marriage MUST be doing it because they are a fanatical religious zealot - they claim to not be religious or have a spiritual faith, perhaps they are members of the church of Atheism. It's still a religion and they are still bigots - and I'm still denied MY right to happiness. You do realize that I have a RIGHT TO HAPPINESS; right? It's guaranteed by the Declaration of Independence - you can look it up.
[/Dripping Sarcasm]

Marriage is what it is and what it has been for thousands of years, it is only between a man and a woman, it is not a "motorcycle" or a union between people of like genders or even farm animals. If you want those things, fine, whatever, but don't try to call it marriage - because it isn't.

As far as what two consenting adults do behind a closed door, sure that's THEIR business. But, when you bring that activity out from behind the closed door and try to sell it as being good and normal, hogwash! When you try to tell my kids that such behaviour to acceptable and normal and that they need to embrace it , you've given up the protection of remaining behind a closed door. If you keep it behind closed doors and don't bring it out into the open I won't declare it illegal - so long as you don't preach to my kids that it's just a different kind of acceptable behaviour.