Obama Immigration Speech

[sniper7]

Also, I played "the race card" because I thought you might find it interesting that FAIR and CIS (and NumbersUSA as well) were founded by / heavily associated with a guy who not only has shady ties to white supremacists, but also is an unabashed ENVIRONMENTALIST. You know, the guys who want to tax having kids and subsidize abortions to keep the population level down? That kind of environmentalist. I hope you can see why I don't feel the need to go digging through a document put out by trash like that. At best the data is slanted; at worst, environmentalists have been known to make shit up on occasion.

and the president you voted for is tied to a domestic terrorist, a billionaire socialist and a racist reverend. oh yeah, and he got 98% of the black vote. racism is definitely only one sided and only white people like me are racists.

[rockhound]

[quote=Pancho Villa;353514]Man, "my business failed because of illegal immigrants," that's the ultimate buck-passing.

Also, you want to put the name in quotation marks when you quote, or its just a jumble of text. quote="PanchoVilla" next time.



who the hell ever said my business failed??? I have owned and operated several businesses that employed legal citizens, none of them failed.


I said i competed against companies that hired illegals and the competition is not fair to companies who are above board and to the illegals who are being taken advantage of.


what protection did you ever provide to the guy you picked up on the corner for day labor. what would you have been able to do for him if he was hurt while working for you?

[spyder]

This is just in dollars in / out, and doesn't take into account the well-documented positive effect on economic growth that additional (cheaper) labor has on an economy. Given that, the net effect of the illegals (through additional business tax revenues due to higher profits) is almost certainly positive.

Also, I played "the race card" because...

Here is the first thing I want to bring up pancho, you say additional in your arguements. I want to know what you mean by additional because it sounds to me like whoever your sources are, they think that the needed work out there and the revenue it should produce is apparently "extra". So, wouldn't it be be better if your "additional" illegals were legal citizens that the employer had to pay the normal taxes on and the employee had to pay their taxes also? Any ammount of extra money that finds it's way into the system is good for economic growth, that is just a plain common sence fact, kind of a "duh" thing. So, in that way of thinking, ya your illegal workers are getting extra money into the system, but, so are the bank robbers, pimps, prostutes, slave laborers, drug dealers and everyone else that is making money illegaly. It could all be considered "additional" money making its way into the system. So, should we let that happen also since it is generating revenue, some, scary enough, lots of revenue?

No pancho, your arguement is not a valid one. Illegal labor is still illegal. Ya, it is putting money into the economy, but so would legal laborers in their place, the legal ones that pay taxes would bring more money into the economy also. Not to mention that your illegals are bringing down the economy (yes I know they are still putting money into it like drug dealers and every other illegal act of some sort) by lowering the cost of labor. If you don't understand what I mean, let me tell you. We will say company A uses legal workers that they have to pay all taxes on, and company B uses illegal workers. This is a very simple concept, company B hires on their workers for much less, and doesn't pay any taxes on their workers or anything else that they should. So, when bid time comes around B can underbid A by a lot so if A wants to be competitive, they have to cut costs, which is usually our of the pockets of their workers. So, illegal company B is driving down the cost of work, or labor. Simple enough? I want to know how you think this is some how a good thing when everything is just getting more expensive? I don't want you to go off on some tangent of inflation and what is behind it now, I just want to know how driving down the cost of labor and lowering the laborer's wages is some how a good thing?

The simple truth is that the only person that illegal labor is good for is the owner of the company so they can save a few bucks. As I said pancho, yes I know that those illegal workers are good for the economy because they use their money to buy shit just like everyone else (so do drug dealers, theifs, and hookers) and therefore have a positive effect on the economy, but legal workers put in their place would have a better affect on the economy, oh, and it wouldn't be illegal. People and companies that hire illegals are simply theifs. Not only are they stealing money from the government, but also from the hands of the companies that have to lower their costs to compete with the dishonest people that hire illegals. You seem like a smart person pancho so you tell me, which set up would generate more revenue for the economy, company A that pays taxes with tax paying employees, or company B that hires illegal workers?

Also, I think that you need to drop the racist thing. I think it is kinda stupid to keep saying that as an arguement when everyone is just saying that "illegal" workers need to go. I am sure they have a problem with people who work under the table also, white, black or whatever.

[streetglideok]

The whole illegal immigrant/worker will only be a problem to those who deny it's even a problem, the day they themselves lose their job to an illegal in the name of the company saving a few bucks. In other words, you can say that illegals dont cause such a hardship on the economy all you want, but the day when you lose your job, and have to work for half your old wage, because an illegal can do it for pennies on the dollar, is the day you will want everyone of them kicked out!

[Elhuero]

Is that for "foreigners" only or the locals the same ?

it's because of the locals they have that policy. and yes, it's for everybody.

[Pancho Villa]

I don't know about "Stealing" money, but as the laws of this nation have set aside taxed funds for some social programs, its not an optional thing...
Yeah, I know we dont get to be selective with what we get and what we give and to whom ... I Don't like all of the laws either, but we abide by them instead of claiming they are racist or prejudice and then openly violating them.
Be it Immigration Laws, Tax laws or firearms laws... we follow the laws set forth or we move to have them changed. you want tax laws and social assistance laws changed? Rock on, call your congressman. In the meantime, pony up like the rest of us.

Disregarding them is not an option.

I'm not suggesting anyone does. The easiest way (not costing billions of dollars hiring tens or hundreds of thousands more government union workers to suck up way more cash than you'd like to imagine) is to just hand people a green card, tell them not to use welfare and let them be on their merry way.

In addition, schools are funded mostly through property taxes, which you pay if you're not homeless. I won't get into the myriad of ways that income taxes still get paid if you hire even day labor, let alone some guy whose SS# is 1234567890, but it's there as well.

Here is the first thing I want to bring up pancho, you say additional in your arguements. I want to know what you mean by additional because it sounds to me like whoever your sources are, they think that the needed work out there and the revenue it should produce is apparently "extra". So, wouldn't it be be better if your "additional" illegals were legal citizens that the employer had to pay the normal taxes on and the employee had to pay their taxes also?

Well, there's a misconception here, that I touched on very briefly before, about taxes.

Pre-check days (and still today in states that do not mandate the use of E-Verify - by the way, thanks for another layer of paperwork and checks, GOP, its nice to know that you're drafting employers to be part of ICE when everyone's already strapped,) a guy could roll in with a fake SS number - jumble of numbers that corresponded to no one - and everything would be koshure on the tax-thing.

The reason is pretty simple, that being that most businesses who have regular employees (as opposed to day labor) are fearful of an IRS audit, and having your wages be entirely in cash is asking for a big, fat audit. And, since you and I and everyone with two braincells to rub together knows that the IRS doesn't even know how to do taxes, odds are an audit of any small-to-medium sized business is going to find "mistakes" and cost the company a ton of money - possibly putting it out of business.

Day labor is a bit different, but as you don't have legit writeoffs for it, the money generally is taxed at the corporate tax rate, which is effectively higher (about 33%) than what low-skilled labor gets taxed at, since they get rebates.

However, you're right; my ideal solution isn't a bunch of illegal immigrants running around, its a bunch of guys with green cards running around. But I think the first step to that is recognizing that the law they violated is at best a futile attempt to defy the basic laws of economics, at worst a recipe (if strictly enforced) for another recession.

As far as your comparisons - seriously, do you not see any difference from Jose with a fake SS number shoveling mortar at a construction site every day and a bank robber? One guy is trying to make a living without actually using force on anyone else, the other guy sticks a gun in your craw and steals money.

We will say company A uses legal workers that they have to pay all taxes on, and company B uses illegal workers. This is a very simple concept, company B hires on their workers for much less, and doesn't pay any taxes on their workers or anything else that they should. So, when bid time comes around B can underbid A by a lot so if A wants to be competitive, they have to cut costs, which is usually our of the pockets of their workers. So, illegal company B is driving down the cost of work, or labor. Simple enough? I want to know how you think this is some how a good thing when everything is just getting more expensive? I don't want you to go off on some tangent of inflation and what is behind it now, I just want to know how driving down the cost of labor and lowering the laborer's wages is some how a good thing?

Two things: as I outlined above, taxes get paid on illegals as well. I always see this example but I lived in Dallas and worked with many outfits that were 60-90% hispanic, with some large % of those probably illegal, and none of those outfits paid them in cash at the end of the day; everything was a check with the usual forms filled out at the office.

The exception is companies who used day labor, but, they paid white guys in cash as well. So the actual economic advantage for a company that uses immigrant labor isn't skipping out on taxes (which isn't possible, long-term; the IRS watches companies a lot more strictly than individuals) but the actual, real decreased labor costs.

Let me show you the bigger picture, economically.

Let's say you own a business, and the cost of labor goes down due to an influx of immigrants. On average, 70% of your costs are paying your guys - and that goes down. What does that mean? It means you can sell the stuff you are making for cheaper. While wages go down, the amount of whatever it is you are producing those dollars can buy goes up. This benefits everyone. You make more money and the people who want your stuff can afford more of it, and people who previously couldn't afford whatever it is you're selling can. This means more profits in your pockets, more stuff for your customers and more jobs for your employees.

The economy isn't this closed system where if wages go down, purchasing power also goes down. In a free market, if wages go down, the purchasing power of those wages go up significantly. It also frees up manpower by redirecting the smartest, ambitious guys to higher-skilled industries that will then pay more than the job whose wages just went down.

So, you get the lower-skilled immigrants getting into those jobs and driving wages down, but this stimulates the economy more generally in the short term (allowing more people to afford the now cheaper goods, leading to business expansion and more jobs / goods and services produced) and in the long-run by putting in economic incentives to get into higher-paying jobs through better training or education. In the end, you get cheaper stuff like food and basic services, and more people doing other stuff - like Tech Companies or what have you. In the long run, your $8/hr laborer job ends up buying you more (both in the basic stuff, like food and more luxury goods, that also get cheaper as more people put their efforts into them) than your $12/hr laborer job did before the immigrants came in.

Anyway, the rest of your post is more of the same, but I hope that outlines the basic economics of the situation.

People should learn economics. It gives you a different perspective, and helps guard you against the frankly false arguments put forth by those against a drastic expansion of legal immigration.

Frankly, the economic arguments against immigration are Marxist; closed economic system, new laborers taking a "piece of the pie" from native-born laborers, etc. It's all stuff you'd be very familiar with if you've read your Marx. Its just as false when applied to immigrants as when its applied to the economy more generally.

An interesting side-effect of accepting these arguments is that those who have really thought it through (ie John Tanton) are also big supporters of population control. If a new immigrant drives wages down, newborn babies do, too; people like Tanton and others *also* argue for subsidized abortions and taxes on people who have "too many" babies, with the goal of having a perfectly stable population. This is monstrous, of course - but it's also the consequence of the idea that additional (ie cheaper) labor is a bad thing.

[Byte Stryke]

I'm not suggesting anyone does. The easiest way (not costing billions of dollars hiring tens or hundreds of thousands more government union workers to suck up way more cash than you'd like to imagine) is to just hand people a green card, tell them not to use welfare and let them be on their merry way.

Yeah, Handing out greencards didn't work the last time either,

and what about people like me that spent MONTHS at the INS and Embassy, spent thousands getting a green card...

you rebating that?

I take cash.

[spyder]

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit, right?

However, you're right; my ideal solution isn't a bunch of illegal immigrants running around, its a bunch of guys with green cards running around. This right here is the only line that should have been written.

As far as your comparisons - seriously, do you not see any difference from Jose with a fake SS number shoveling mortar at a construction site every day and a bank robber? No actually, you can pretty much put the two together pretty well. One forcefully steals your money at gun point, the other just goes about taking money out of hard working people's hands by lowering the wages. I will say however there is a big difference between the two, the robber probably knows english.

Let me show you the bigger picture, economically.

People should learn economics. It gives you a different perspective, and helps guard you against the frankly false arguments put forth by those against a drastic expansion of legal immigration.

An interesting side-effect of accepting these arguments is that those who have really thought it through (ie John Tanton) are also big supporters of population control. If a new immigrant drives wages down, newborn babies do, too; people like Tanton and others *also* argue for subsidized abortions and taxes on people who have "too many" babies, with the goal of having a perfectly stable population. This is monstrous, of course - but it's also the consequence of the idea that additional (ie cheaper) labor is a bad thing.

You can preach all you want pancho, site all of the economic laws that you feel, but will still be wrong. Illegals have driven down the wages, this isn't some fictional story, this is real life, things that are taking place in the world now and not simple sentences in a book. The fact that even with this the price of everything has gone up is also a fact, again, nonfiction. I wish everything I read was correct too, but unfortunately when some things we hear or read about actually play out, the outcome isn't what we thought it should be. So in the end what I am saying is yes, illegals are theifs and are no different than robber's, and illegals have driven down the wages while the prices of everything still go up.

Oh and population control? Really? I mean eventually we are going to run out of space on this planet (simple math)...... eh never mind.

[rocktot]

The first time around, it was all BS, they had a Dem government, they 'could have done it', but they didnt. Big business, I think, wants CHEAP labor, so they will talk around it, but I 'dont think' they will pull the trigger because business, big and small, would have to pony up for:Taxes, SSI, Health Insurance, etc, so the $10 dollar an hour illegal goes to $20 dolla an hour, and that is NOT GOOD BUSINESS. They want them as illlegal slave labor, IMO, I think, and so Amnesty, on a broad scale, may be unlikley. They are getting their demographic change in 20 years with the anchors anyway, so they will have complete NWO, UN control by letting things just as they are, without angering the public. Slow, slow, slow death, so you can't see it or feel it. By by first, second, third, fourth amendments....bye bye..

[streetglideok]

One more reason to expel the illegals, when they work, they usually arent paying taxes right? Why would they when the employer is paying them under the table? Where does that money go? Back to their former country, which further dillutes our currency.