battle rifle question

[NukeRJ]

http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40366

If you are tight on cash I'll work with you as much as I can.

[Birddog1911]

For me, the G3 has the most horendous ergonomics, kicks like a Missouri mule, destroys brass for reloading, and is the least accurate of the "big 3" battle rifles.

Ergonomics for the FAL or the M1A are very different, but for me they are equally comfortable. Of course, the M1A takes the prize for accuracy of all three. That said, if you want to squeeze every bit of accuracy out of the M1A, it costs a lot more money, and has to be tweeked every year or so, depending upon your shooting.

Have handled a couple of different .308 AR's, and it's just another AR. That is to say, ergonomic, relatively light weight, inherently accurate, and modular as hell.

Now, if you can take Jerry up on his offer to shoot a few of his FAL's, go for it. Jerry is a stand up guy who will do whatever he can to help you out. Just watch out for the dogs, they get under feet!

[sneakerd]

I completely concur with Birddog, as that is exactly my experience with the 3 G3-types that I have owned, 2 HKs and 1 PTR. I didn't learn the 1st 2 times because the platform is just too cool.

[Zombie Steve]

I'm a big M14 / M1A proponent, but in all fairness to you looking to spend some scratch on a nice rifle, I should point out its weak link... the gas system.

M1A's like a very specific burn rate on powders. Most factory loads use a fairly slow burning powder to achieve max speeds in the .308. These slower, "late blooming" powders may have less pressure in the chamber, but they have more at the gas port which tends to batter the snot out of your operating rod... potentially damaging it.

Start on page 10 here. It explains it a lot better than I can.

Two solutions - some sell an aftermarket adjustable plug which will bleed off gases, or just find something designed for this (and the M1 Garand) gas system. American Eagle makes a round designed specifically for the M1A, or if you reload, just use IMR 4895 or H 4895 (little faster burning). I decided I had to ice skate uphill and use other slower powders like 4320 and Varget because I had a bunch lying around... they can work, but only on the very low end. I eventually decided to use what all the old timers used, and life became a lot more simple.

Bottom line - as long as you're aware of it, it's really not much of a downside. Just understand that you'll never get published speeds out of your M1A (most manufacturers publish bolt gun numbers). The good news is the .308 has guts to spare, has decent accuracy in the base models (and gets better from there), and is really soft shooting for a .308.

I still get a tad over 2,550 fps from my 168 grain SMK load from my Springfield Loaded model I just posted a pic of, and can keep it close to 1.5 MOA all day long.

I hope this helps.

[BPTactical]

I guess I am the oddball here. Yes the ergonomics on the G3 are typical German which to most folks suck. As far as recoil goes I put a buffer in it and it tamed it down a touch. One thing that I really do like is the fact that similar to an AR, the barrel, bolt and buttstock are all on the same plane. This keeps muzzle rise in rapid fire more manageable. To me this is a weak link on a FAL, the recoil spring on a standard model takes a dive downward in the buttstock. This creates a natural fulcrum at the pistol grip and the rifle tends to "pivot". That was its downfall in FA, the muzzle rose so badly that it was virtually uncontrollable.
Reliability and cheap mags are what clinch it for me on the G3.
Accuracy? One of the most accurate semi auto 308 rifles is based on the G3-the PSG1. Clean up the trigger and you can get good accuracy. I and my son have clanged steel silhouettes with irons at 525 yards consistently. No, we weren't driving tacks with it but then again that is not what the rifle is built for.
IMHO for sheer accuracy you cannot beat a properly accurized M1A. Accurate thousand yard shots are quite doable if the shooter does his job but the rifle needs a good touch of work first.

[sneakerd]

Not hardly BPT. I'm also a member on the M14 forum, although I'm not on there much anymore.... hmmm. Got into this discussion on that forum and was generally rousted as a turd because I dared insult the great HK91! Again I have owned 3, just not smart enough to learn the 1st time. They are a really cool rifle, they just aren't for me behind the trigger.

[jerrymrc]

For me, the G3 has the most horendous ergonomics, kicks like a Missouri mule, destroys brass for reloading, and is the least accurate of the "big 3" battle rifles.

Ergonomics for the FAL or the M1A are very different, but for me they are equally comfortable. Of course, the M1A takes the prize for accuracy of all three. That said, if you want to squeeze every bit of accuracy out of the M1A, it costs a lot more money, and has to be tweeked every year or so, depending upon your shooting.

Have handled a couple of different .308 AR's, and it's just another AR. That is to say, ergonomic, relatively light weight, inherently accurate, and modular as hell.

Now, if you can take Jerry up on his offer to shoot a few of his FAL's, go for it. Jerry is a stand up guy who will do whatever he can to help you out. Just watch out for the dogs, they get under feet!

You funny guy. A couple more points. I do love the M1 and if you want to buy one rifle in .308 that can be made accurate then the M1 is for you.

Myself having qualified with the Fal in 81 and then got to carry another in 90 started building them in the late 90's. A few tibits about the Fal.

101 ways to build one.
Some shoot and some do not.
Buying a DSA means nothing as to the accuracy (see above)
You can spend all the money in the world on one and it will not shoot better. (see above)
There are some things that can help one but do not expect miracles.
barrel condition Vs shot groups in a fal mean little (see above)
When you get one that shoots do not mess with it.
Fal carbines. we now have the short gas system and 18" is preferred but long ago the joke was " If ya want a Fal carbine buy an SKS" If one looks at how the Fal works this is a valid argument.

Back in the day we just built them until one shot good. Understand that Fal's could be built for $300 in the 89-92 years.

I have built at least 30 and fixed many more. I also have what is considered to be the lightest one in the world at 5.75lbs iron sights that I built.

I will say that any Fal you are looking at if it is used that you need to be able to shoot it first at a range to verify that it is a shooter. The last thing I would wish is for someone to buy a shotgun shooter.

But then again I know nothing about them.

[cms81586]

Here's my take on battle rifles:

FAL: Never had any luck with them. It's just been that...bad luck. Every one I fired, from Century to DSA (Never a real FN) had issues. One even liked to pop open after every round. I'm sure they're great rifles and I'll own one eventually, but for now I have other things in mind.

HK-91/G3: They are great rifles. I've had two HK-91's (factory HK) and both were extremely accurate, dead stone reliable, and mags are dirt cheap. That said, clones are hit or miss (even PTR's), they are a bitch to build/repair, they kick like a SOB without an expensive 2-stage buffer, and they do destroy brass (not an issue if you're just shooting surplus). Egro's suck as well and while you can get used to them, they'll never be as fast as some other rifles.

M1A: If you're a Garand fan you're already familiar with the manual of arms. Just know thier limitations. They're great accurate rifles. They're pretty reliable and if you leave them in stock form they're great. Once you start adding things like Sage/Troy chassis, scopes, bipods...they become heavy dogs. You also have to watch if you reload. Soft primers can lead to OOB kabooms and hot loads bend op rods. New M1A's don't have USGI parts and the newer cast parts can be of poor quality. Most people replace the new parts with USGI parts. That can be pretty expensive, so look for a "preban" since they were built with USGI parts. Good mags are pricey too!

AR-10: Don't be afraid of the AR platform. They're great. If you're looking into one, get one that uses the SR-25/PMAG mags. AR-10 mags are expensive and older ones don't work great. You can do anything with an AR. They're accurate, reliable if done right, and versatile. Built as a precision rifle, you can easily get sub-moa with a good barrel. You can build/buy one with a 16" barrel and run it as a big AR-15. If you're leary of DI gas guns check out POF's piston guns as well as the LWRC REPR. The best deal going right now is the LMT MWS. It's a quick change barrel 7.62 AR. They're quality and even Knights has said that 80% of the parts come off of the same mfg line as their rifles. Definitely look into the MWS!

Other Options: The Keltec RFB seems promising. They're accurate and the only issues I've seen so far is chrome flaking on the bolt. They use FAL mags which are still somewhat cheap and easy to find. The bullpup nature allows for a really short package. It's still new though. There's the Saiga if you're an AK fan, but since hi-cap mags are expensive and rare (factory mags that is), and I'm not a fan of the aftermarket mags, I'm not sold on them. The SCAR-17S is proven and they're pretty accurate as well. If you can get past the quirks of the reciprocating bolt handle and you can live with one mag until they become more readily available, they're a great option. I belive they're the lightest battle rifles out there right now, weighing in at right at 8lbs empty. The folder also makes them very maneuverable and good for hiking.

Hope this helps!

ETA: I'm running a SR-25 EMC. They're pricey but great rifles...again...don't be afraid of the AR's and look into the LMT MWS if you don't want to spend a crapload on a rifle.



Sold this to buy that ^^^^^^^^^^

[DD977GM2]

You say there are to many plastic parts for your taste in an AR15...the mulitary has felt it just dandy for over 40 years...something to keep in mind if your concerned with cheap to moderatly priced parts.

I have never run into issues with the "plastic" parts not standing up to hard use and some abuse. Id recommend the AR platform first and foremost if availability of parts and price of spare parts is a concern.

If it still is just not your thing....go with a PTR91 or CETME (with some aftermarket parts installation and minor gunsmithing to make it run like a champ) or even the venerable AK47 in 7.62x39.

This is just my humble opinion and what Id do if I was choosing a more modern battle rifle for zombie invasions.

Good luck and enjoy your search!!!

[DD977GM2]

Buy a 6.8 Noveske a troy battle axe stock ( I think thats the aluminum one), and metal trigger guard, that just leaves a plastic grip, and I am sure you could get a non-plastic grip.

I think his whole idea is to stay on the cheaper end of the spectrum. Dont get me wrong the 6.8 is a badass round and fun as hell to shoot,but I got out of the round because it hurt the wallet at $1.05 a round even though I bought factory ammo at great prices from little known online sources. I dont reload so that wasnt an option.