Republican Candidates

[Bailey Guns]

The U.S has bases in 148 countries with 662 bases in 38 foreign countries.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...el-130-nation/

OK. I read the article. I think it probably supports my position more than yours. And the bottom line, like the article says, it depends on how you define a base:

Still, caveats are in order here, too. Of the 662 overseas sites listed -- that is, those outside the active war zones -- all but 32 of them are either small sites (with a replacement value of less than $915 million) or sites essentially owned on paper only.

For instance, the sole site listed for Canada is 144 square feet of leased space -- equal to a 12-foot-by-12-foot room. That’s an extreme case, but other nations on the list -- such as Aruba, Iceland, Indonesia, Kenya, Norway and Peru -- have just a few U.S. military buildings, many of them leased. Some of the sites are unmanned radio relay towers or other minor facilities. "Most of them are a couple of acres with a cyclone fence and no troops," Pike said.

VIETNAM WAR
Good thing we won that Vietnam War! Right??? I mean if we hadn't won that communism would have spread all over the world and we would be speaking russian and saying "good day" comrade. OH crap wait a minute. WE DIDN'T WIN THAT WAR AND WERE NOT ALL COMMUNIST!!! BUT WE DID LOSE 58,000 MEN FOR A POINTLESS WAR

Nice attempt at changing the subject and deflecting the topic from your original question. You asked if there was a national security threat in Viet Nam...not "did we win the war?".

KOREAN WAR
The Korean War was a civil war that we involved ourselves in for the same reasons of the Vietnam War. We did nothing but kill a bunch of our men, spend a bunch of our money and entice a madman to arm himself with nukes to prevent the most powerful military in the world that has been sitting on his southern border for 50+ years, from attacking him.

The North invaded the South.

Iraq II
Everyone knows that IraqII was based on lies and you know it too. It had nothing to do with national security end of story!

You can assert your "Bush lied, people died" leftist talking point and "end of story" claim all you want. Doesn't mean it's fact. I reject both points as completely false with plenty of evidence, to those willing to listen to reason, to support my side.


When will Americans grow tired of fighting other peoples war's? When will we decide that we have spilled enough blood? When will we realize that we have spent ourselves to oblivion. When will we realize that these wars do not make us safer, that they only make us fight more wars.

It may surprise you to learn that I, too, think it's high time to either take care of business in Afghanistan or get out. Probably too late to do much more in Iraq. I wasn't against either war. However, as usual, the politics interfered with accomplishing the military mission. That's when my support fades.

When will we stop being arrogant and thinking that we can screw with anyone we want at any time for any reason?

When will this madness stop?

I think this is a very simplistic explanation for how the US interacts with the rest of the world. It's another "bumper sticker" statement that means nothing on it's face and really reminds me of something constantly heard coming from the mouths of the "I hate America" liberal crowd. It sounds good on the surface to a sympathetic audience but really says nothing. How about providing some concrete examples and explaining why those examples support your position?

Just so you know I have no ill feelings for you. We just happen to disagree.

Ditto.

[Bailey Guns]

What would you do if China declared a no-fly zone in Colorado? What would you do?

I'd laugh and wonder how, exactly, they were going to enforce it. Come on...you can do better than that, can't you?

[Zundfolge]

VIETNAM WAR
Good thing we won that Vietnam War! Right??? I mean if we hadn't won that communism would have spread all over the world and we would be speaking russian and saying "good day" comrade. OH crap wait a minute. WE DIDN'T WIN THAT WAR AND WERE NOT ALL COMMUNIST!!! BUT WE DID LOSE 58,000 MEN FOR A POINTLESS WAR

Militarially we won the war. After the 1968 Tet Offensive (where Walter Cronkite showed his true pinko colors and lied saying we lost) most of the Viet Cong believed their days were numbered. The only reason we "lost" is because of the protests here in the US.

KOREAN WAR
The Korean War was a civil war that we involved ourselves in for the same reasons of the Vietnam War. We did nothing but kill a bunch of our men, spend a bunch of our money and entice a madman to arm himself with nukes to prevent the most powerful military in the world that has been sitting on his southern border for 50+ years, from attacking him.

Take an honest look at North Korea ... we were able to save half of the Koreans from years of torment, death, starvation and slavery. Too bad we couldn't save them all. Would you be happier if the entire Korean peninsula looked like North Korea?

Iraq II
Everyone knows that IraqII was based on lies and you know it too. It had nothing to do with national security end of story!

Saddam HAD WMDs and an active WMD development program, he used them against the Kurds. He stonewalled the inspectors, lied to the world and convinced everyone (including the Clintons and most Democrats) that he had a large store of WMDs and was ready to use them. There's plenty of evidence that he moved most of them into Syria before "Shock & Awe" started. One might be able to argue that the intelligence wasn't 100% correct vis a vis Saddam's WMDs (but this was in part because of Saddams own counter intelligence programs) but there was no "lies" here and the world is a better place with Saddam and his psycho sons dead.

When will we stop being arrogant and thinking that we can screw with anyone we want at any time for any reason?

When will this madness stop?

The flaw in your thinking is that if only the US would "stop being big meanies" that the world would love us.


Like I said before, as long as we're successful and wealthy most of these same people will hate us and try to destroy us. And in the case of Islamists they've been at war with every non Muslim culture since Mohammed rolled into Medina in 622AD.

[bryjcom]

I'd laugh and wonder how, exactly, they were going to enforce it. Come on...you can do better than that, can't you?

You fail to understand my point.

What if another country came on U.S soil and declared a no fly zone or said that your leader has to go. Or that we are going to "liberate" you.

You would take up arms against them as well.

Its no different than an Iraqi taking up arms against us

[bryjcom]

My point about Vietnam was that we lost the war for what ever reason but we didn't loose our freedoms or "national security". It doesn't matter how we lost the war. The point is that we lost it and we all didn't die and the world didn't succumb to Communism

So how can you say Vietnam was about "national security"

Same thing with Korea. Somehow its our business that we "save" koreans. But how does that affect our "national security"

Two words: It doesn't!

[Zundfolge]

My point about Vietnam was that we lost the war for what ever reason but we didn't loose our freedoms or "national security". It doesn't matter how we lost the war. The point is that we lost it and we all didn't die and the world didn't succumb to Communism

So how can you say Vietnam was about "national security"

No, we didn't die ... but you can't say that about a million Cambodians. And no the world didn't succumb to Communism, but Communism was empowered by the victory.

Same thing with Korea. Somehow its our business that we "save" koreans. But how does that affect our "national security"

Two words: It doesn't!

Wars like Vietnam and Korea slowed the expansion of communism and forced them to use up massive amounts of their resources. When the Soviet Union fell at the end of the 80s it was because they ran out of resources. What if they would have lasted a generation longer?

When you look at what is going on now, if the Soviet Union still existed thing would be made much worse than they are going to be.

Furthermore, South Korea has been a HUGE ally in our containment of the Chinese from the end of WWII through the 80s (before they started their half-ass attempts to become quasi-capitalist). Seriously, if China controlled all of Asia we probably would have seen a 3 way WWIII (NATO vs USSR vs China) sometime in the mid 70s (which would probably mean that humanity would no longer exist at this point ... certainly not in any meaningful way).

[bryjcom]

No, we didn't die ... but you can't say that about a million Cambodians. And no the world didn't succumb to Communism, but Communism was empowered by the victory.

Wars like Vietnam and Korea slowed the expansion of communism and forced them to use up massive amounts of their resources. When the Soviet Union fell at the end of the 80s it was because they ran out of resources. What if they would have lasted a generation longer?

When you look at what is going on now, if the Soviet Union still existed thing would be made much worse than they are going to be.

Furthermore, South Korea has been a HUGE ally in our containment of the Chinese from the end of WWII through the 80s (before they started their half-ass attempts to become quasi-capitalist). Seriously, if China controlled all of Asia we probably would have seen a 3 way WWIII (NATO vs USSR vs China) sometime in the mid 70s (which would probably mean that humanity would no longer exist at this point ... certainly not in any meaningful way).

The soviet union collapsed because of its empire and also........Wait for it....Wait for it...........AFGHANISTAN!!!


The simply couldn't afford it and we can't either.


Here's another question. Why can't we just trade and speak to everyone instead of, " well we don't like your form of government, so if you don't change then we are going to impose trade embargos and sanctions and etc, etc, etc," ???

Seems like a much more peaceful way to live in the world.


I'd rather spread democracy through example instead of through embargos and the end of a barrel.

[Aloha_Shooter]

The U.S has bases in 148 countries with 662 bases in 38 foreign countries.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...el-130-nation/

From their own website:
"PolitiFact.com is a project of the St. Petersburg Times to help you find the truth in Washington and the Obama presidency."

Now ... Politifact DID win a Pulitzer in 2009 for their so-called fact-checking during the 2008 campaign. On the other hand, most of this "fact-checking" that I remember seeing was nothing of the sort. It was scrutinizing anything Republicans said to find fault while trying to whitewash anything Hillary or Obama said.

In fact, the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette labeled the St. Petersburg Times as "usually liberal" in 2003.

So let's look further at this claim of 148 countries. Wikipedia (not my idea of a solid source but quick for the moment) lists the following (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...bases#Overseas):

The US Army has facilities (not all facilities are bases but most civilians don't understand the different between a base, station, post, fort, camp, etc.) in Bulgaria, Iraq, Germany, Israel, Italy, Japan, Kuwait, Kosovo and South Korea. The USMC has facilities in Afghanistan, Germany and Japan. The US Navy has facilities in Bahrain, the British Indian Ocean Territory, Brazil, Cuba, Spain, Japan, Italy, Israel, Greece and South Korea. The US Air Force has facilities in Afghanistan, Bulgaria, Germany, Greenland, Italy, Japan, Qatar, Singapore, South Korea, Kyrgyzstan, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Turkey and the United Kingdom.

Wikipedia also lists Guam for the Navy and AF but Guam is technically US territory. So what's missing? The US Army also has a significant presence in the Marshall Islands (Reagan Test Site aka Kwajalein Atoll). The Navy used to have a small station in Singapore. Nothing was listed in Central America although we used to have camps there. There are frequently US military liaison officers located worldwide to either provide a contact for military partnerships (e.g., with allies like the Australians or French) and NATO bases are sometimes construed as "US" although there's technically no US real estate ownership as there is with official DoD bases. The various services have small detachments (anything from 2 people to 2-3 dozen) located all around the world to provide things like technical or logistic support and Marines are located at nearly every embassy to provide guards but these are hardly bases.

For some of the reasons above, I believe we have US military personnel stationed in 148 countries but to misquote Wendy's, "show me the bases."

[Zundfolge]

I'd rather spread democracy through example instead of through embargos and the end of a barrel.

Then you will live in a world without liberty, democracy or human rights and surrounded by mass death, suffering and slavery. Period.

You should see if you can't find Yuri Bezmenov's excellent lectures on how the Soviets infiltrated and collapsed governments and societies around the world. The lessons there are that evil never sleeps and evil never compromises (yes, I am saying unequivocally that communism, socialism and every other form of collectivism are evil ... this includes Islam with is a collectivist form of government disguised as a religion).

The other lesson you'll learn is that ultimately the Soviet Union will win the cold war long after they "lost" it. Yeah, his lectures are kind of a downer.


America is probably too far gone but I'm not going to hasten its demise by putting a naive man like Dr Paul at the helm (not saying he's not a good man, he is. He's just wrong about the existence and persistence of evil in the world).

Here's another question. Why can't we just trade and speak to everyone instead of, " well we don't like your form of government, so if you don't change then we are going to impose trade embargos and sanctions and etc, etc, etc," ???

This is the libertarian version of that Coke commercial from the 60s.

There is no sitting in a circle singing Kumbyah. We cannot simply trade with evil, remain silent about evil (afterall evil has as much right to exist as good) and not expect that evil will still try to destroy us.

[Bailey Guns]

It's very difficult to have a logical argument/debate/discussion with someone who's entire argument is based on emotion.

"People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along?"