Boulder AR-15 Ban

[johngraves2]

Been a long time since I posted here, but things are heating up again. Didn't see this posted anywhere else.

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/ci_31681638/boulder-assault-rifle-ban

They are just starting to talk about this, but this is not ok.

[CS1983]

Grano’s quote in the article is contradictory. These people don’t even know what they don’t like.

Will write more later.

[ray1970]

Disarm the hippies!

[ray1970]

At least that garbage piece of “journalism” educated me about bump stocks. Apparently a bump stock is used to turn a “non-assault” weapon into an “assault weapon.

[kidicarus13]

It's officially on tonight's agenda starting at 6PM...


73571

73572

[WETWRKS]

Are they aware they don't have the authority to do it per the state.

[roberth]

Are they aware they don't have the authority to do it per the state.

Did that every matter to a bed-wetting liberal?

[johngraves2]

Are they aware they don't have the authority to do it per the state.

Doesn't City and County of Denver have one?

[TFOGGER]

Doesn't City and County of Denver have one?

Denver's was only upheld due to the Meyers Decision...

https://www.rmgo.org/news/news-archive/33-2004-news/218-meyers-court-decision


Sorry to link to RMGO, but they have the best synopsis

https://www.denverpost.com/2006/06/05/ruling-lets-city-regulate-guns/

Boulder has no such protection, as the State predates the founding of Boulder.

[johngraves2]

I see, Makes sense.

[CoGirl303]

they want to ban something that has never had any negative effect on their city?

I dont even think an AR-15 has been used in a mass shooting in Boulder, let alone any shooting.


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[KevDen2005]

they want to ban something that has never had any negative effect on their city?

I dont even think an AR-15 has been used in a mass shooting in Boulder, let alone any shooting.


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AR 15s are rarely used in any type of criminal episode. They just gain fame in recent active shooters

[Kilyung]

Supressors as well by the look of it.

[KevDen2005]

Maybe I should get into the AK platform more

[Irving]

Maybe I should get into the AK platform more

There is an AR-57 in an evidence locker, some where.

[KevDen2005]

There is an AR-57 in an evidence locker, some where.

I'm not cool enough to up my game that far...plus breaking into evidence lockers I believe is frowned upon or borderline illegal

[.455_Hunter]

Given the documented supremacy of the state preemption clause over cities not named Denver, I am not even sure what they are trying to accomplish other than some more progressive verbal masterbation.

[Will1776]

Also, Denver's ban is really just a mag ban. A semi rifle only becomes a scary assault rifle if a 15+ magazine is inserted (and maybe possessed at the same time)

[CS1983]

Added Grano, "We believe that it's constitutionally defensible to have an assault weapons ban. Denver has had one for a long time. Coupling it with high-capacity magazine bans is important ... and bump stock bans are being considered in municipalities across the country as well, because, of course, they can convert (non-assault) weapons into assault weapons."

Ok, so this paragraph is problematic because it's inherently contradictory.

First, she posits they can ban "assault weapons", which is an undefined and nebulous term. But then she states that bump stocks convert non-"assault weapons" into "assault weapons".

My questions are:

what is an "assault weapon" in Grano's mind, and how does she classify them as such?
what weapon make and model which is a non-"assault weapon" accepts bump stocks?
why are the non-"assault weapons" classified as such?
do "assault weapons" without bump stocks get more.. assaulty, if they are fitted with a bump stock?

The logic in her statement simply doesn't follow reality. It's like in her mind, there are assault weapons by birth and assault weapons by reassignment surgery, but without removing the dangly bits which clue everyone in that they are not, in fact, "assault weapons"? Great, now I gotta think up a female Thai name for my carbine.

[Gman]

Is it possible to defend oneself with an "assault weapon"?

[brutal]

At least that garbage piece of “journalism” educated me about bump stocks. Apparently a bump stock is used to turn a “non-assault” weapon into an “assault weapon.

And increase its power! Damn, if only I had known.

[.455_Hunter]

https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/boulder-considers-assault-weapons-ban

Wow! This Jill Grano is a real piece of work. She must be new on the council, as her name does not ring a bell.


"The federal government is not taking action on an issue I feel is really important," said Jill Grano, a Boulder City Councilwoman who proposed the ban at Tuesday's city council meeting. "And it's up to states and municipalities to be leaders in gun control."

Grano said the council would hash out details about what weapons would be banned under the proposal and how it would be enforced.

"I recognize that those are sort of catch-all terms," said Grano. "I hope that we'll include any sort of semi-automatic weapon in our definition of assault weapons, but we will be seeking advice from our city attorney and his staff on what’s legally defensible."

While Boulder begins the discussion on an assault weapons ban, Denver has had one in place since 1989. Grano said they will use Denver as a starting point, but she hopes to create a stricter policy.


The I guess nobody mentioned preemption to them, because the discussion with the city attorney is going to be pretty short.

They do know that people own guns in Boulder, don't they?

One things for certain, if Boulder gets it's way, most every other large city in the state will be pushing the same thing.

[CoGirl303]

https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/boulder-considers-assault-weapons-ban

Wow! This Jill Grano is a real piece of work. She must be new on the council, as her name does not ring a bell.




The I guess nobody mentioned preemption to them, because the discussion with the city attorney is going to be pretty short.

They do know that people own guns in Boulder, don't they?

One things for certain, if Boulder gets it's way, most every other large city in the state will be pushing the same thing.

and they wont like the result it garners from gun owners. This is a constitutional infringment upon our 2A rights.

I can't get to paralegal school and law school fast enough.


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[ray1970]

Heard this morning that they don’t plan to go forward with this.

[zulu01]

Shocking Boulder would propose this.[Sarcasm2]

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/ci_31681638/boulder-assault-rifle-ban

[Grant H.]

Heard this morning that they don’t plan to go forward with this.

Not terribly surprising...

[crays]

Even at the Federal level, the tide may be turning. When asked about an assault weapons ban today, the White House Press Secretary said, "We haven't closed the door on any front." Also Tuesday, President Trump pushed for a federal ban on bump stocks.

"Just a few moments ago, I signed a memorandum directing the Attorney General to propose regulations to ban all devices that turn legal weapons into machine guns," said Trump.

Bolded text by me.

Is this a crafty Trump statement, or is this a caving? Because "devices that turn legal weapons into machine guns" are already regulated.

Hopefully, it's the former, and he's playing the dims for fools, and not a harbinger of policy shifts to come.

[kidicarus13]

Heard this morning that they don’t plan to go forward with this.

That's not what my ears heard... https://bouldercolorado.gov/boulder8/city-council-video-player-and-archive (https:council memberso.gov/boulder8/city-council-video-player-and-archive)
8 out of 8 council members agreed to move forward on the issue while taking silencers off the list.

[.455_Hunter]

Probably a useless gesture in terms of coming from a Joe Citizen like me, but I already contacted State AG Office this morning highlighting that the proposed actions are in direct conflict with CRS 29-11.7-103:

Regulation - Type Of Firearm - Prohibited.

A local government may NOT enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the sale, purchase, or
possession of a firearm that a person may lawfully sell, purchase, or possess under state or federal law. Any
such ordinance, regulation, or other law enacted by a local government prior to March 18, 2003, is void and
unenforceable.

[OneGuy67]

From the Meyers Decision:

"The City argues that regulation of assault weapons and Saturday night specials is a purely local issue based on the unique characteristics of Denver described above. Further, the City's ordinance banning assault weapons has been in effect since 1989, while the sale of Saturday night specials has been banned since 1975. The State has never chosen to legislate in this area. The State responds that this area, like all gun control, is an area of mixed state and local concern and that the state statute preempting conflicting City ordinances predominates.

I hold for the City on this issue. Subsection (a) of the assault weapons ordinance states the City Council's findings as to why assault weapons pose a threat to the health, safety and security of the citizens of Denver and that the increasing use of assault weapons for criminal activities has resulted in a record number of related homicides and injuries to both citizens and law enforcement officers. Like open carry, there is little need for statewide uniformity given the unique characteristics of Denver, and the impact of the ordinances on people living outside of Denver is minimal. The exceptions under the assault weapons ban allow the legitimate transportation of weapons by nonresidents through Denver, and the ban on Saturday night specials only applies to sales by dealers within the City and County of Denver. My evaluation of the totality of the circumstances is that Denver's interest in limiting the impact of assault weapons and Saturday night specials in Denver far outweighs the State's insubstantial interest in uniformity of gun control laws, especially since the State has never chosen to legislate in this arena before.

For the reasons stated above, I find the State has failed to demonstrate a significant interest in requiring every city and town to allow assault weapons and Saturday night specials. Thus, I conclude that the City has proved, beyond a reasonable doubt, that C.R.S. §29-11.7-103, insofar as the state relies on it to preempt the ordinances at issue here, is an unconstitutional infringement on the home rule powers of the City and County of Denver as guaranteed by Article XX, § 6 of the Colorado Constitution"

My reading of this does indicate that a local government entity like a home rule city such as Boulder does have the ability to enact like ordinances similar to Denver's.

[.455_Hunter]

From the Meyers Decision:

"The City argues that regulation of assault weapons and Saturday night specials is a purely local issue based on the unique characteristics of Denver described above. Further, the City's ordinance banning assault weapons has been in effect since 1989, while the sale of Saturday night specials has been banned since 1975. The State has never chosen to legislate in this area. The State responds that this area, like all gun control, is an area of mixed state and local concern and that the state statute preempting conflicting City ordinances predominates.

I hold for the City on this issue. Subsection (a) of the assault weapons ordinance states the City Council's findings as to why assault weapons pose a threat to the health, safety and security of the citizens of Denver and that the increasing use of assault weapons for criminal activities has resulted in a record number of related homicides and injuries to both citizens and law enforcement officers. Like open carry, there is little need for statewide uniformity given the unique characteristics of Denver, and the impact of the ordinances on people living outside of Denver is minimal. The exceptions under the assault weapons ban allow the legitimate transportation of weapons by nonresidents through Denver, and the ban on Saturday night specials only applies to sales by dealers within the City and County of Denver. My evaluation of the totality of the circumstances is that Denver's interest in limiting the impact of assault weapons and Saturday night specials in Denver far outweighs the State's insubstantial interest in uniformity of gun control laws, especially since the State has never chosen to legislate in this arena before.

For the reasons stated above, I find the State has failed to demonstrate a significant interest in requiring every city and town to allow assault weapons and Saturday night specials. Thus, I conclude that the City has proved, beyond a reasonable doubt, that C.R.S. §29-11.7-103, insofar as the state relies on it to preempt the ordinances at issue here, is an unconstitutional infringement on the home rule powers of the City and County of Denver as guaranteed by Article XX, § 6 of the Colorado Constitution"

My reading of this does indicate that a local government entity like a home rule city such as Boulder does have the ability to enact like ordinances similar to Denver's.

For whatever reason, its is my understanding (I am not a lawyer) that Boulder does NOT have the same home rule rights as Denver. If so, they would already tried this sort of thing many times in the past. There a bunch of new members on the council, and I am not surprised that the topic has reared up again. If the exceptions allowing the legitimate transportation of the supposedly banned weapons by nonresidents through the municipality, it would a least keep the stupid from impacting those of use who must travel through Boulder, but have no say in its laws.

[O2HeN2]

Probably a useless gesture in terms of coming from a Joe Citizen like me, but I already contacted State AG Office this morning highlighting that the proposed actions are in direct conflict with CRS 29-11.7-103:

Regulation - Type Of Firearm - Prohibited.

A local government may NOT enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the sale, purchase, or
possession of a firearm that a person may lawfully sell, purchase, or possess under state or federal law. Any
such ordinance, regulation, or other law enacted by a local government prior to March 18, 2003, is void and
unenforceable.

What's missing from the above is a class 1 felony and 10 year minimum sentence for anyone trying to violate the above law. You know, the kind of punishments they apply to us serfs.

O2

[O2HeN2]

For whatever reason, its is my understanding (I am not a lawyer) that Boulder does NOT have the same home rule rights as Denver.
Same boat - I'm not a laywer. I THINK it had something to do with the fact that the city of Denver existed before Colorado was a state.

O2

[.455_Hunter]

Same boat - I'm not a laywer. I THINK it had something to do with the fact that the city of Denver existed before Colorado was a state.

O2

The funny thing is that so did Boulder, Golden, etc. There is something more to it beside just date of the city, I am just not sure.

[kidicarus13]

On the topic of concealed carry in Boulder Open Space from the Bouler City Attorney Tom Carr:

This is a complex area of Colorado law. Under the Colorado Constitution, home rule cities such as Boulder have an exclusive right to legislate over matters of local concern. The Colorado Supreme Court has never decided whether the regulation of firearms is a matter of statewide or local concern. There was one case involving Denver on which the court split 4 to 4. The attorney general ruled that this meant that the case had no precedential effect...

[.455_Hunter]

On the topic of concealed carry in Boulder Open Space from the Bouler City Attorney Tom Carr:

This is a complex area of Colorado law. Under the Colorado Constitution, home rule cities such as Boulder have an exclusive right to legislate over matters of local concern. The Colorado Supreme Court has never decided whether the regulation of firearms is a matter of statewide or local concern. There was one case involving Denver on which the court split 4 to 4. The attorney general ruled that this meant that the case had no precedential effect...

Yet, the rules for firearms on City of Boulder Open Space (straight from the website) read...



Discharging or carrying firearms (concealed or otherwise), crossbows, fireworks, explosives or projectile weapons of any kind are prohibited except as expressly mandated by Article 12 of Title 18 of the Colorado Revised Statutes, as amended.

Guess what Article 12 of Title 18 of the CRS is? Yup, the Colorado CCW law. Carr already knows the answer, but they are hoping that if the throw enough shit against the wall, maybe something will stick.

If Boulder was truly able to disregard state law and restrict concealed carry on city property, the sign going into the council chambers would say more than just "No Open Carry".

[kidicarus13]

I don't like what Boulder is trying to do, I am just trying to understand why they think they have a leg to stand on in hopes someone more legally savvy than I can do something to stop it.

[.455_Hunter]

I don't like what Boulder is trying to do, I am just trying to understand why they think they have a leg to stand on in hopes someone more legally savvy than I can do something to stop it.

Yes! +1000

Legal experts please chime in!

The City Council would have possessed the votes to do this after ANY mass shooting since 2003, but never did. What has changed that they now think they have some POTENTIAL legal traction?

[Great-Kazoo]

I don't like what Boulder is trying to do, I am just trying to understand why they think they have a leg to stand on in hopes someone more legally savvy than I can do something to stop it.

"They" don't need a leg to stand on. "They" are playing off Emotions, feels and every other text book liberal buzz word.

[kidicarus13]

Emotions, feels

Are those buzzwords or what happens when you tap your foot inside a bathroom stall at the airport?

[mattiooo]

Boulder is a home rule municipality just like Denver. Here is a list - sort by the "Government" column and the home rule municipalities will jump to the top.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_and_towns_in_Colorado


Colorado has 61 cities and 35 towns that are home rule municipalities:

Colorado home rule municipalities are self-governing under Article 20 of the Constitution of the State of Colorado; Title 31, Article 1, Section 202 of the Colorado Revised Statutes; and the home rule charter of each municipality. The home rule charter determines the form of government. A Colorado home rule municipality may declare itself to be either a city or a town.

[.455_Hunter]

Yes, but the question of whether a city is "home rule" is apparently not the key deciding factor on whether preemption applies. If it was, most of the larger towns would have already followed King Denver in disregarding the 2003 law. I am not an expert, just what I have gleaned over the years.

[86k10]

Would they be able to pass a AWB similar to Denver of they are a home rule municipality? No mags over 15.

[SideShow Bob]

Wasn’t Denver’s ban on magazines over 20 rounds before the state’s 2013 ban on over 15 rounds ?
And wasn’t Denver’s AWB in line with the 94 Federal AWB ?

[def90]

The Home Rule clause doesn't override firearms laws preemption as far as I can tell.. I can't remember how Denver got/gets around it.

[def90]

Wasn’t Denver’s ban on magazines over 20 rounds before the state’s 2013 ban on over 15 rounds ?
And wasn’t Denver’s AWB in line with the 94 Federal AWB ?

Yes, it was before the states ban, it was put in place back when there was a lot of gang violence/warfare going on in Denver. Denver's law is an odd one.. It doesn't ban magazines over 20 rounds directly. I believe the assault weapons ban is a ban on any firearm that has a magazine over 20 rounds attached to it. From what I can tell an AR15 with a 20 round mag would be legal, an AR15 with a 30 round mag would be illegal. Possessing a 30 round magazine is not illegal based on how it is worded.

Denver's law:
https://www.newsmax.com/fastfeatures/denver-gun-laws-difer-colorado/2015/04/29/id/639029/

"So, an AR15 with a 20 round magazine is not considered an "assault weapon" by Denver's ordinance. However, that same rifle with a magazine with a capacity of 21 or more rounds is considered an "assault weapon. "

[def90]

The Home Rule clause doesn't override firearms laws preemption as far as I can tell.. I can't remember how Denver got/gets around it.

OK, I looked it up.. The state preemption law was passed after Denver created their laws thus Denver sued the state on the issue. Sorry for the Gifford link but it lays it out.

http://lawcenter.giffords.org/local-authority-to-regulate-firearms-in-colorado/

The judge noted: "unique characteristics that differentiate Denver from other parts of the state, such as high population density and a high crime rate, stating that these characteristics outweigh the need for statewide uniformity in these areas. "

Boulder does not have a high crime rate nor a high population density (at least not as high as Denver) thus another judge using this as their basis would likely strike it down.. You never know though.

[NFATrustGuy]

I just read the Judge Meyer decision on the lawsuit between Denver and the State of Colorado.

It seems to me that the decision upholding Denver’s assault weapon ban was based on Denver convincing the judge that Denver was unique in population density and crime rate such that it has different needs as compared to the rest of the state.

The concept of State preemption was discussed because the State had recently enacted a law stating that the State was assuming authority for all laws concerning firearms. Judge Meyer mentioned in his ruling that the Denver assault weapon law existed before the State law declaring the regulation of firearms to be a State issue. In his discussion of whether or not a State could just declare itself sole authority on an issue, Judge Meyer cited several cases that suggest that a State declaration should be weighed heavily, but the declaration of authority isn’t an automatic win for the State.

In lawyer terminology, the discussion of whether a State can just declare itself the supreme authority on an issue and the issue of whether the State’s preemption legislation was enacted before or after the Denver assault weapon ban would be referred to as Dicta. It’s important discussion, but it’s not the primary reason the case was decided the way it was.

In the vernacular of my favorite Civil Procedure Professor, Lucy Marsh, the black letter law from the Meyer decision is that if a local municipality can convince the court that that particular municipality has sufficient special circumstances that require special laws for that particular municipality, then that municipality can make its own special law.

Of course if Boulder pulls this shit, the State should argue that the timing of the State preemption law is VERY significant and should preclude Boulder from enacting an assault weapon ban. They’ll also argue that Boulder doesn’t have the population density or the crime rate of Denver—as others have already pointed out in this thread.

Bottom line is that the way I’m reading it, I think it could happen and the ultimate decision as to whether it’s upheld will be left to the court system. As we’ve all witnessed, the courts have increasingly become heavily influenced by politics and frequently issue strained decisions inline with their party’s position on any given issue.

This opinion brought to you live from a booth at Chili’s—because this is what nerdy folks do when they’re having dinner alone! :-)

[hollohas]

That's all BS. The preemption law is either valid or not. The entire notion that Denver is somehow special enough not to follow Colorado law is absurd. State law can only be statewide or not at all. What hogwash.

(This post is directed at the stupid judge that decided it, not NFAtrustguy ;) )

Every rural municipality should claim they have special circumstances that outweigh the state mag ban.

[.455_Hunter]

You guys better hope that Boulder gets slapped down, otherwise it's open season on gun owners in pretty much every major urban city in the state.

[NFATrustGuy]

You guys better hope that Boulder gets slapped down, otherwise it's open season on gun owners in pretty much every major urban city in the state.

This is correct.

[Great-Kazoo]

You guys better hope that Boulder gets slapped down, otherwise it's open season on gun owners in pretty much every major urban city in the state.

Not likely to happen

[KevDen2005]

This opinion brought to you live from a booth at Chili’s—because this is what nerdy folks do when they’re having dinner alone! :-)

I feel sad for a number of reasons now...

[electronman1729]

I remember once reading a statistic the Boulder county has the highest number of NFA owned per person than any other county in the US.

[KevDen2005]

I remember once reading a statistic the Boulder county has the highest number of NFA owned per person than any other county in the US.

How many years ago was that? I remember as a kid it seemed like a lot of gun lovin folks in rural Boulder County....not so sure anymore. I would be very interested to see if that was still the case or not.

[electronman1729]

Maybe when I was at CU in 2008?

[KevDen2005]

Maybe when I was at CU in 2008?

A decade ago, seems like yesterday...

[def90]

I remember once reading a statistic the Boulder county has the highest number of NFA owned per person than any other county in the US.

A local gunsmith/Boulder County Sheriffs Deputy told me something similar to that as well. Was probably 6-7 years ago? Actually might have been around the time of Sandy Hook, I remember having a long conversation with him after I picked up a couple FAL parts I had him refinish for me. He was a kit builder as well, built FALs and had a couple AKs.

[NFATrustGuy]

I don't keep statistics or anything like that, but subjectively it seems like I've done a significant number of NFA Trusts for Boulder folks.

[KevDen2005]

I don't keep statistics or anything like that, but subjectively it seems like I've done a significant number of NFA Trusts for Boulder folks.

I wonder if people out there just have the money to do it...

[NFATrustGuy]

I wonder if people out there just have the money to do it...

That could very well be the case. Money is all relative. $300 is chump change if you're accustomed to paying $800,000 for a not-so-spiffy 3 bed, 2 bath home with a 2 car garage!

[KevDen2005]

That could very well be the case. Money is all relative. $300 is chump change if you're accustomed to paying $800,000 for a not-so-spiffy 3 bed, 2 bath home with a 2 car garage!

My thoughts exactly. I think up until the last decade rural Boulder County had a lot of woodsmen and conservatives and maybe still do. But the cost of a suppressor and tax stamp is just not worth it to most middle class people I think.

[Skip]

My thoughts exactly. I think up until the last decade rural Boulder County had a lot of woodsmen and conservatives and maybe still do. But the cost of a suppressor and tax stamp is just not worth it to most middle class people I think.

There is a lot of gun hypocrisy in Boulder. All the trash migrating into Boulder encourages the wealthy Libs to buy guns and they quietly do so.

How many times have we heard of a home invasion in Boulder resulting in a shooting? A few years ago it was like every few months. Boulder Co did the typical "we're seeing if charges will be filed against the homeowner" dance and then dropped it.

I don't know if they would support a black rifle ban because of their programming or not. I suspect many mostly own handguns and probably think the same way fudds do about the subject (not my gun, not my problem).

[def90]

There is a lot of gun hypocrisy in Boulder. All the trash migrating into Boulder encourages the wealthy Libs to buy guns and they quietly do so.

How many times have we heard of a home invasion in Boulder resulting in a shooting? A few years ago it was like every few months. Boulder Co did the typical "we're seeing if charges will be filed against the homeowner" dance and then dropped it.

I don't know if they would support a black rifle ban because of their programming or not. I suspect many mostly own handguns and probably think the same way fudds do about the subject (not my gun, not my problem).I've been here since 2000 and I can only think of two.. one was a drunk girl, the other was a guy tripping his balls off.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Skip]

I've been here since 2000 and I can only think of two.. one was a drunk girl, the other was a guy tripping his balls off.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Those are the high profile ones.

Crazy dude that shot his neighbor over a squirrel (I don't think that person died).

[Aloha_Shooter]

At least that garbage piece of “journalism” educated me about bump stocks. Apparently a bump stock is used to turn a “non-assault” weapon into an “assault weapon.

So he now admits a standard AR is not an "assault" weapon?

[johngraves2]

I know it is from RMGO, but this is the letter they just sent to Boulder City Council. They say if they proceed with the weapons ban RMGO will also challenge other laws they currently have.



February 22, 2018

City of Boulder
1777 Broadway St.
Boulder, CO 80302

COUNCIL MEMBERS

Aaron Brockett
Bob Yates
Cindy Carlisle
Jill Adler Grano
Lisa Morzel
Mary Young
Mirabai Kuk Nagle
Sam Weaver
Suzanne Jones

An open letter to the Boulder City Council:

I am the staff attorney for Rocky Mountain Gun Owners. RMGO is a non-profit organization devoted to defense of the right to keep and bear arms for all law-abiding residents of the State of Colorado.

I am writing concerning news reports that you are considering enacting a gun control bill that would include a ban on firearms, firearm magazines and firearm accessories. News reports suggest this bill would be along the lines of ordinances enacted in Denver.

RMGO opposes such bills in their entirety as a gross infringement on the right to keep and bear arms as outlined in the U.S. and Colorado Constitutions. Additionally the Colorado legislature has preempted and occupied this field, as outlined in C.R.S. § 29-11.7-103. RMGO is quite familiar with this statute, since we helped shepherd it through the Colorado legislature.

We are aware that a trial court decided, using criteria very specific to Denver, that some of the gun control ordinances then in effect in Denver were not pre-empted under this law. This decision was not overturned by the Colorado Supreme Court, due to an even split among the justices at the time. RMGO is very confident this decision would have no application to Boulder. None of the unique circumstances about crime and crime control the court pointed to in sustaining some of the Denver ordinances apply to Boulder, which is an extremely crime free city.

Accordingly RMGO would request that the council abandon this effort. Should the council elect not to, RMGO does anticipate litigation against the city to strike an ordinance down as both unconstitutional and pre-empted by the State legislature.

You should also be aware that certain current ordinances of the City of Boulder are, in my opinion, also pre-empted. The legality of those ordinances would be litigated as well. These include B.R.C. sections 5-8-4, 5-8-8, 5-8-9 and 5-8-15.

In short, taking action to further restrict firearms within the City of Boulder will result in litigation to decide the constitutionality and legality of both the current Boulder gun control scheme and the assault weapon ordinance the city council is considering. RMGO would additionally seek attorney fees and costs under 42 U.S.C. section 1983 and Colorado law.

Sincerely,

James O. Bardwell, Esq.

[def90]

I have a feeling that the Independence Institute would go after them pretty hard as well as a couple of their top guys live in Boulder.

I’ve sent letters to all the members asking what the possible ordinance may include as well as what their basis is for this.. of course not a single reply and I even know one of them personally.

[johngraves2]

Glad to see you are helping to fight this. I know not many people think much of Boulder, but like it has been pointed out, if Boulder tries to do this, other cities will too.

[Alpha2]

I just read the Judge Meyer decision on the lawsuit between Denver and the State of Colorado.

It seems to me that the decision upholding Denver’s assault weapon ban was based on Denver convincing the judge that Denver was unique in population density and crime rate such that it has different needs as compared to the rest of the state.

The concept of State preemption was discussed because the State had recently enacted a law stating that the State was assuming authority for all laws concerning firearms. Judge Meyer mentioned in his ruling that the Denver assault weapon law existed before the State law declaring the regulation of firearms to be a State issue. In his discussion of whether or not a State could just declare itself sole authority on an issue, Judge Meyer cited several cases that suggest that a State declaration should be weighed heavily, but the declaration of authority isn’t an automatic win for the State.

In lawyer terminology, the discussion of whether a State can just declare itself the supreme authority on an issue and the issue of whether the State’s preemption legislation was enacted before or after the Denver assault weapon ban would be referred to as Dicta. It’s important discussion, but it’s not the primary reason the case was decided the way it was.

In the vernacular of my favorite Civil Procedure Professor, Lucy Marsh, the black letter law from the Meyer decision is that if a local municipality can convince the court that that particular municipality has sufficient special circumstances that require special laws for that particular municipality, then that municipality can make its own special law.

Of course if Boulder pulls this shit, the State should argue that the timing of the State preemption law is VERY significant and should preclude Boulder from enacting an assault weapon ban. They’ll also argue that Boulder doesn’t have the population density or the crime rate of Denver—as others have already pointed out in this thread.

Bottom line is that the way I’m reading it, I think it could happen and the ultimate decision as to whether it’s upheld will be left to the court system. As we’ve all witnessed, the courts have increasingly become heavily influenced by politics and frequently issue strained decisions inline with their party’s position on any given issue.

This opinion brought to you live from a booth at Chili’s—because this is what nerdy folks do when they’re having dinner alone! :-)

give me a call, I'll join you for dinner. I'm retired now, got nuthin' but time on my hands. Oh, you're buyin'.

[def90]

The City Council will be going over their gun ban proposal on Thursday Apr 5th at 6:00. I plan on attending. I have already contacted all of the members and have had a discussion with one of them. I have added a list of members if you haven't voiced your opinion yet.


Boulder City Council Chambers
1777 Broadway
Boulder, CO 80302
April 5, 2018 at 6:00pm



COUNCIL MEMBER BOB YATES
720-310-5829
yatesb@bouldercolorado.gov
COUNCIL MEMBER CINDY CARLISLE
303-434-1456
carlislec@bouldercolorado.gov
COUNCIL MEMBER JILL ADLER GRANO
303-917-6810
granoj@bouldercolorado.gov
COUNCIL MEMBER LISA MORZEL
303-815-6723
morzell@bouldercolorado.gov
COUNCIL MEMBER MARY D. YOUNG
303-501-2439
youngm@bouldercolorado.gov
COUNCIL MEMBER MIRABAI KUK NAGLE
303-818-4128
naglem@bouldercolorado.gov
COUNCIL MEMBER SAM WEAVER
303-416-6130
WeaverS@bouldercolorado.gov
MAYOR SUZANNE JONES
720-633-7388
joness@bouldercolorado.gov
MAYOR PRO TEM AARON BROCKETT
720-984-1863
brocketta@bouldercolorado.gov

[.455_Hunter]

For those of you who think this is just a stupid Boulder issue, take note that if they get away with it by claiming "home rule" override to the states's gun law preemption statute, the following cities can do just the same by a simple progressive majority on the city council:

Alamosa
Arvada
Aspen
Aurora
Avon
Black Hawk
Breckenridge
Brighton
Burlington
Canon City
Carbondale
Castle Rock
Cedaredge
Centennial
Central City
Cherry Hills Village
Colorado Springs
Commerce City
Cortez
Craig

The list just keeps going...

[wyome]

Ban guns in the city of Boulder period?

[.455_Hunter]

Ban guns in the city of Boulder period?

No, some flavor of "assault weapons" ban, plus bump stocks, crank triggers, etc. The kicker could be an attempt to do a max 7 rd mag limit, like the original NY Safe Act.

[GeorgeandSugar]

Getting pathetic!🤮


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[boxy]

I'll be at this meeting, and I plan on speaking. I'm going to draft an email this week, as well.

This violates at least 2 of the Colorado Revised Statutes (no firearms databases/registration, state preemption) and as mentioned above, if unsuccessfully challenged opens the door for municipal legislation statewide.

I really hope some organization has enough resources to sue.

[DOC]

Boulder needs a good kick in the pantsuit.

[johngraves2]

So many issues with this. The proposed law is not enforceable.

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/boulder/ci_31772132/boulder-weighing-measure-ban-sale-possession-assault-weapons

[Great-Kazoo]

This wording basically says you compete, you're exempt. How da fuk are "they" going to verify that???

Carr has recommended exemptions for weapons owned by police, federal officers, military personnel; holders of federal firearms licenses, stamps or permits; and competitive shooters who are members of organized groups that gather for the purpose of competition.


Now this is the part that should concern everyone. How will a LE dept whose CLEO is against guns educate people??




Anyone found in violation of that would be first "educated and informed" by police,

[johngraves2]

They do not know what they are doing. This is not a well written law, this is not ok.

[Irving]

Haven't read the law, but the competition exemption could easily be turned into a requirement to store on site of the range. I think other countries do that, which of course will be pointed to as an example.

[crays]

And the typically smug bravado of the left:


Grano, the councilwoman who proposed this ban in the first place, issued a response: "Thank you for communicating this threat. I am sure that suing a home rule city for enacting common sense legislation that the majority of Americans support and that has been upheld elsewhere in the state and nation, at the same time as our children are being mauled down in their schools by assault weapons, will provide excellent publicity for your organization."

F rmgo and fudley, but I would love to see them decimate City of Boulder in a lawsuit and get other existing laws revoked, as well.

[johngraves2]

F rmgo and fudley, but I would love to see them decimate City of Boulder in a lawsuit and get other existing laws revoked, as well.

I agree. Again if this moves forward other cities will do the same thing as Boulder.

[.455_Hunter]

OK legal eagles- Would such a law be enforceable on non-Boulder residents who are passing through town?

[crays]

OK legal eagles- Would such a law be enforceable on non-Boulder residents who are passing through town?Not if you're a competitive shooter, apparently.

Sent from somewhere

[Great-Kazoo]

. I think other countries do that, which of course will be pointed to as an example.


Other countries don't have a BOR, Constitution or Second Amendment.

[Irving]

Didn't stop anyone from starting sentences with "but in Australia..."

[def90]

City Council meeting is Thursday at 6:00, I plan on being there.

[Great-Kazoo]

Didn't stop anyone from starting sentences with "but in Australia..."

A wiser person would shut it down with Yes BUT in America. However the left always goes to the alinsky playbook with... You're Deflecting

[jimbo]

I'll be there. Stay cool and represent yourself well, no matter how maddening some of this crap is.

Here are some details from a 3/31 Boulder Daily Camera article (http://www.dailycamera.com/news/boulder/ci_31772132/boulder-weighing-measure-ban-sale-possession-assault-weapons).

Boulder seeks to
1) ban possession of assault weapons not already owned by residents,
2) require registration with Boulder Police Department for existing owners of assault weapons,
3) ban outright the possession of magazines with greater than 10-round capacity, and
4) ban outright the possession of bump stocks.

"How does the proposed law define "assault weapons"? As City Attorney Tom Carr has drafted it, "assault weapons" are defined as:
• All semiautomatic rifles that have the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and that have any of the following characteristics: a pistol grip or thumbhole stock; a folding or telescoping stock; or any protruding grip or other device to allow the weapon to be stabilized with the non-trigger hand.
• All semi-automatic center-fire pistols that have any of the following characteristics: the capacity to accept a magazine other than in the pistol grip or any device to allow the weapon to be stabilized with the non-trigger hand.
• Any firearm which has been modified to be operable as an assault weapon as defined by the city, plus any part or combination or parts designed to convert a firearm into an assault weapon"

"(Boulder City Attorney) Carr has recommended exemptions for weapons owned by police, federal officers, military personnel; holders of federal firearms licenses, stamps or permits; and competitive shooters who are members of organized groups that gather for the purpose of competition."

[Great-Kazoo]

Ask them. With an anti-gun police chief how would Boulder plan on handling this item.

Anyone found in violation of that would be first "educated and informed" by police,

Please clarify what they mean by Educated and Informed. Who will be educating them and what will they Inform them of?


Anyone found in violation of that would be first "educated and informed" by police,

[Eric P]

I am firmly opposed to this. And if it becomes law, I am firmly opposed to any exemptions for military and police and government officials. What makes them special? Nothing, they are not less dangerous than us normal folk. Likely more dangerous, as these are the people the 2nd ammendment was designed to protect us from.

[pickenup]

Even if you are not a Boulder resident, if you have the time you could attend, to show support and add to the numbers.

[GeorgeandSugar]

I am firmly opposed to this. And if it becomes law, I am firmly opposed to any exemptions for military and police and government officials. What makes them special? Nothing, they are not less dangerous than us normal folk. Likely more dangerous, as these are the people the 2nd ammendment was designed to protect us from.

I retired from the military. I despise these carve-outs, exemptions and exceptions. These idiots in Boulder pull this crap all the time depending on whatever the current “media push” happens to be. These proposals to be discussed are a waste of time and symbolic at best. I’m part of militia now and don’t see a carve-out, exemption or exception. I wonder why not?


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[boxy]

Are there any legal experts that can chime in here?

Everything I've read about this proposal seems to violate state law.... Unless it's a matter of local concern. How can they prove it's a local concern? Is there some kind of standard?

And how the hell can they just pass illegal legislation like this without the state courts smacking them upside the head, if it is indeed illegal?

[def90]

Are there any legal experts that can chime in here?

Everything I've read about this proposal seems to violate state law.... Unless it's a matter of local concern. How can they prove it's a local concern? Is there some kind of standard?

And how the hell can they just pass illegal legislation like this without the state courts smacking them upside the head, if it is indeed illegal?

Denver was given a pass by the courts as well as Vail has been able to maintain an assault weapons ban. They are basing their conclusions on this. Yes, what they are proposing goes against state law, it will be interesting to see if the state does anything about it, the State AG has been silent on the issue. I'm guessing they wont and it will come down to private lawsuits.

[.455_Hunter]

My first attempt to get a response from the AG office resulted in a callback from a clueless low-level staffer. I do have another acquaintance contact who works there, but the gentleman in question's area of expertise is in an entirely different area, and is 90% certain to be supportive of any such bans. However, he may be able to provide a POC for more substantial discussion than the previous attempt.

[.455_Hunter]

For your reading displeasure.

[.455_Hunter]

Vomit...

[GeorgeandSugar]

For anyone going to speak here is some information from the MD shooting that you could reference.

“I received this in my e-mail inbox from a friend. Those from MD can tell us all if this is true. Looks legitimate to me, at least the first couple on the list.

“Even the smartest person in the world could never have predicted this, right? And certainly not our lawmakers.

What DIDN’T stop Maryland’s school shooting:

- Maryland’s assault weapon ban
- Maryland’s 10-round magazine limit
- Maryland’s universal background check requirement
- Maryland’s law requiring an exhaustive application process to obtain a permit to purchase a handgun
- Maryland’s law prohibiting purchase of more than one firearm per month
- Maryland’s law requiring handgun registration
- Maryland’s law requiring licensing of handgun owners
- Maryland’s extremely limited approval of concealed carry permits
- Maryland’s refusal to honor any concealed carry permit from another state
- Laws against carrying without a permit
- Gun free zone laws
- Laws against discharging a firearm in public
- Laws against attempted murder

Even the Federal law didn’t stop the shooter:

- prohibiting handgun possession for people under 21 (makes one wonder if a new law prohibiting purchase of a rifle by anyone under 21 would work)

What DID stop Maryland’s school shooting:

An armed person at the scene who engaged the shooter in less than a minute. Who would have thought that a good guy with a gun could stop a bad guy with a gun.

Where is the uproar? No CNN, no vigil & no student parades.”





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[Skip]

Denver was given a pass by the courts as well as Vail has been able to maintain an assault weapons ban. They are basing their conclusions on this. Yes, what they are proposing goes against state law, it will be interesting to see if the state does anything about it, the State AG has been silent on the issue. I'm guessing they wont and it will come down to private lawsuits.

Each day it becomes more and more obvious there really is no law.

Even if gun control is good policy, how does one obey with the patchwork of contradicting Fed, state, and local laws? I can't think of a single other thing that is more arbitrarily and inconsistently regulated.

[Singlestack]

I'll be there

[Rucker61]

Didn't stop anyone from starting sentences with "but in Australia..."

And 99% of the people who start with that preamble have no idea what they actually did in Australia, how they were able to do it, and what the results actually were. Russia has even stricter laws, I like to point out. New Zealand still allows modern sporting rifles and they've not had a single mass shooting.

[BPTactical]

You can call and respectfully voice your opposition to this proposal: 303-441-3002

[RblDiver]

Related, apparently Merriam-Webster's decided to change their definition of "assault weapon" as well. http://thefederalist.com/2018/03/31/merriam-webster-online-dictionary-changes-definition-assault-rifle-parkland-shooting/

[Gman]

I have to dispute that article. They state that all guns are designed to assault something. My guns are defensive in nature.

Sent from my electronic leash using Tapatalk

[RblDiver]

Sort of OT, but I like this guy's attitude. Since there are so many (like Boulder) going after gun rights, it's time to stop playing defense and go on the offense.

https://reason.com/blog/2018/04/03/gop-senate-candidate-austin-petersen-wan

"If they talk about repealing the Second Amendment, let's push in the opposite direction. The best defense is a good offense so let's talk about repealing the NFA and the Hughes Amendments."

[Erni]

I have to dispute that article. They state that all guns are designed to assault something. My guns are defensive in nature.

Sent from my electronic leash using Tapatalk
Those idiots always and on purpose conflate purpose with use.

A guns function is to safely and effectively convert potential chemical energy into kinetic energy. Nothing more. What you do with thst function is up to you.

[def90]

The owner of Bison Tactical in Boulder posed the following question.. If a "Home Rule" city like Denver, Vail or Boulder can ban firearms despite the states pre-emption laws and the state does not step in to stop it then this means that any other home rule city should be able to revoke the states background check law and the magazine limit law...

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[crays]

The owner of Bison Tactical in Boulder posed the following question.. If a "Home Rule" city like Denver, Vail or Boulder can ban firearms despite the states pre-emption laws and the state does not step in to stop it then this means that any other home rule city should be able to revoke the states background check law and the magazine limit law...

Sent from my XT1650 using TapatalkFred is good people.

Sent from somewhere

[boxy]

Just a thought guys, if you carry everywhere, I would leave your gun at home or in your car. As a reminder, you cannot conceal carry in any public building with a security checkpoint. I wouldn't be surprised if they put in a security checkpoint to suppress the voices that they don't want to hear.

[CoGirl303]

Sort of OT, but I like this guy's attitude. Since there are so many (like Boulder) going after gun rights, it's time to stop playing defense and go on the offense.

https://reason.com/blog/2018/04/03/gop-senate-candidate-austin-petersen-wan

"If they talk about repealing the Second Amendment, let's push in the opposite direction. The best defense is a good offense so let's talk about repealing the NFA and the Hughes Amendments."

add Deerfield, IL to that list of towns going after guns and gun rights.

This could potentially be Boulder's fate if people dont show up to that meeting this week.


https://t.co/mpQprKxdIl?amp=1

https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2018/4/4/1754337/-Deerfield-Village-IL-bans-possession-of-assault-weapons-and-high-capacity-magazines


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[wctriumph]

add Deerfield, IL to that list of towns going after guns and gun rights.

This could potentially be Boulder's fate if people dont show up to that meeting this week.


https://t.co/mpQprKxdIl?amp=1

https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2018/4/4/1754337/-Deerfield-Village-IL-bans-possession-of-assault-weapons-and-high-capacity-magazines


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It will not matter how many people show up on the pro-gun side, the council members have already decided how they will vote.

I am not saying don't go, all of you that can, should show up and speak if allowed.

[vossman]

It will not matter how many people show up on the pro-gun side, the council members have already decided how they will vote.

I am not saying don't go, all of you that can, should show up and speak if allowed.

We saw this with the mag ban. Assholes.

[MrPrena]

It will not matter how many people show up on the pro-gun side, the council members have already decided how they will vote.

I am not saying don't go, all of you that can, should show up and speak if allowed.


We saw this with the mag ban. Assholes.

Sad but true.

Not just city state level, but I'm out school district as well.

[Squeeze]

We saw this with the mag ban. Assholes.

Yep. Even though the halls of the Capitol were flooded with opposition to the new gun control laws and the only people who they could get to talk in favor of them were people from out of state, country, or a Liberal police chief from Golden who is a flaming [pileoshit]. I was there on March 4th, 2013, and every single person who signed up to speak in opposition of those laws were denied their 3 minutes of speaking.

[Gman]

A sad spectacle of indifferent leadership.

[.455_Hunter]

This month Boulder, next month Golden, Lakewood, Thornton, Littleton, Aurora, Ft. Collins...

[BPTactical]

Yep. Even though the halls of the Capitol were flooded with opposition to the new gun control laws and the only people who they could get to talk in favor of them were people from out of state, country, or a Liberal police chief from Golden who is a flaming [pileoshit]. I was there on March 4th, 2013, and every single person who signed up to speak in opposition of those laws were denied their 3 minutes of speaking.

Ayup, me too.
I had faith in the political system until then.
"1 person, 1 vote" actually meant something to me until then.

[RblDiver]

Here's an idea: When this passes, take your gun/etc out of the city. Go get a name tag, name it "Juan" or the like, attach it to your gun, and bring it back into the city. Tell them it's an undocumented immigrant (who *nudge nudge* is thinking of voting Democrat), and remind them of their sanctuary city status.

[boxy]

Sign ups to speak begin at 5pm. I'm getting there at 4:50pm.

[RblDiver]

Sign ups to speak begin at 5pm. I'm getting there at 4:50pm.

I have a feeling that'll be way too late. I'm sure there'll be plenty of supporters of the law lining up hours in advance to fill it up completely with their drivel.

Edit: Also, the attorney's pretty much admitted this is to target law-abiding citizens.

"If you look at most of the mass shootings, the guns were purchased legally. I see this as an ordinance that throws in one more barrier to someone who's contemplating such a horrible act."

[boxy]

I have a feeling that'll be way too late. I'm sure there'll be plenty of supporters of the law lining up hours in advance to fill it up completely with their drivel.

Gonna go straight from work then! [panic]

[boxy]

Tom Carr on KUNC this morning:

http://www.kunc.org/post/boulder-may-soon-ban-sale-and-possession-assault-weapons

[boxy]

Tom Carr on KUNC this morning:

http://www.kunc.org/post/boulder-may-soon-ban-sale-and-possession-assault-weapons

[O2HeN2]

You note that they haven't deviated from using the term "Assault Weapon". If you're going to speak, you need to keep saying "All semiautomatifc rifles and handguns, the firearm that most commonly used for self-defense" over and over.

O2

[.455_Hunter]

Extractions from the proposed ordnance-

Definitions:

Illegal weapon means an assault weapon, large-capacity magazine, multi-burst trigger activator, blackjack, gas gun, metallic knuckles, gravity knife or switchblade knife.

Large-capacity magazine means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(a) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.

(b) A 22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.

(c) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.

5-8-10. – Possession and Sale of Illegal Weapons.

(a) No person shall knowingly possess or sell or otherwise transfer an illegal weapon.

(b) The defendant's knowledge that the weapon was illegal is not an aspect of knowledge required for violation of this section.

(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to forbid any person:

(1) Holding a Federal Firearms License issued by the United States Government from possession of any firearm authorized pursuant to such license;

(2) From possessing a weapon for which the United States Government has issued a stamp or permit pursuant to the National Firearms Act;

(3) Who is a competitive shooter from possessing a weapon necessary to compete, provided that the weapon is registered with the Boulder Police Department
pursuant to Section 5-8-28, “Assault Weapons,” B.R.C. 1981;

(4) From possessing a handgun magazine so long as the possession of the handgun
and magazine are in compliance with state law; or

(5) Selling an illegal weapon to a person identified in Section 5-8-25, “Exemptions
from this Chapter,” B.R.C. 1981.

(d) Nothing in this section shall be deemed to apply to any firearm that has been modified
either to render it permanently inoperable or to permanently make it not an assault
weapon.

(e) Nothing in this section shall be deemed to restrict a person's ability to travel with a
weapon in a private automobile or other private means of conveyance for hunting or
for lawful protection of a person's or another's person or property while traveling into,
though, or within, the City of Boulder, regardless of the number of times the person
stops in the City of Boulder.

Items C4 and E bolded above are especially interesting.

[BPTactical]

Tom Carr on KUNC this morning:

http://www.kunc.org/post/boulder-may-soon-ban-sale-and-possession-assault-weapons

Left my comments

[waffles]

Wait, they're banning switchblades with it?

[.455_Hunter]

Wait, they're banning switchblades with it?

Boulder codes are filled with all sorts of outdated old crap.

[Ramsker]

So if you have an SBR with your stamp, that's ok . . . but the 16" AR right next to it in the safe also owned by you is not.

Makes sense.

[DOC]

It all started with cigarettes and moving onto guns. Its a social experiment to see what they can do to get banned. And now when people clutch their pearls about someone smoking they know they won and want to do the same thing with guns. Mayor Handcock said they want people to hate guns as much as they do smokers.

[Gman]

So who publishes the map with the checkerboard of knife & gun laws that vary from state law?

[boxy]

So if you have an SBR with your stamp, that's ok . . . but the 16" AR right next to it in the safe also owned by you is not.

Makes sense.

But remember, you're responsible enough to own that heavily Federally regulated firearm, but any mag over 10 rounds is too dangerous!

[Hummer]

If the council does pass the ordinance one thing that can be done is to boycott all Boulder businesses. Don't Buy Boulder! Besides the publicity, it will deny the city some of their precious tax money. Boulder has a $3 million shortfall for their next budget and they are worried about how they can afford to hire 11 new employees for their already bloated city staff. Make it cost them.

[izzy]

I already don't buy Boulder. Guess I'm ahead of my time.

[Gman]

I already don't buy Boulder. Guess I'm ahead of my time.
Me too....and didn't know it until you pointed it out.

[.455_Hunter]

Any news from the front?

[def90]

So far based on the mugs in the crowd the vast majority is pro gun though I believe the council is going to pass something regardless of what happens tonight. The building and all of the overflow rooms are full and they are directing people over to the library.

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[def90]

Even a guy with a sign saying "Hippies for gun rights"

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[bellavite1]

Even a guy with a sign saying "Hippies for gun rights"

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Give that hippie a medal![Beer]

[Gman]

You note that they haven't deviated from using the term "Assault Weapon". If you're going to speak, you need to keep saying "All semiautomatifc rifles and handguns, the firearm that most commonly used for self-defense" over and over.

O2You could also remind them that the technology is over 100 years old. First used in 1885 to be precise.

[def90]

Interesting, opening speaker.said concealed carry is allowed.in yhe building and she requested that any concealed weapons.remain that way.

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[def90]

City attorney is a moron. While commenting on a photo of a plain jane 10/22 a council member asked why it would be banned and he said it had a pistol grip.

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[BPTactical]

Appreciate the play by play def.

Seriously, thank you.

[.455_Hunter]

Thanks!

For background, the City Attorney, Tom Carr, grew up in the Bronx and came to Boulder with the following biography:

Carr has served assistant U.S. attorney for New York's eastern district, and he was Seattle's city attorney from 2003 to 2009. He earned his law degree from New York Law School and a bachelor's degree in sociology from St. John's University.

A true firearms expert!

[Irving]

City attorney is a moron. While commenting on a photo of a plain jane 10/22 a council member asked why it would be banned and he said it had a pistol grip.


And did anyone say anything after that?


Thanks!

For background, the City Attorney, Tom Carr, grew up in the Bronx and came to Boulder with the following biography:

Carr has served assistant U.S. attorney for New York's eastern district, and he was Seattle's city attorney from 2003 to 2009. He earned his law degree from New York Law School and a bachelor's degree in sociology from St. John's University.

A true firearms expert!

That doesn't really mean anything. Most people here don't have firearm specific stuff on their school or work resumes either. Not saying I don't agree with you.

[.455_Hunter]

Its probably hoping against hope, but maybe there is enough intelligence on the Council to realize this not as cut and dried as Grano and Carr present it to be.

[.455_Hunter]

That doesn't really mean anything. Most people here don't have firearm specific stuff on their school or work resumes either. Not saying I don't agree with you.

My thought is there is a strong possibility he has never handled let alone fired a gun in his lifetime based on that resume.

[BPTactical]

And did anyone say anything after that?



That doesn't really mean anything. Most people here don't have firearm specific stuff on their school or work resumes either. Not saying I don't agree with you.

[hahhah-no]

[jimbo]

When I heard the City's Attorney ask not to be laughed at, I knew it was going downhill.

[.455_Hunter]

Some background on newbie Councilwoman Grano (per her campaign website):

I am the mother of two young boys, Ryder and Treker, both of whom help inform my vision for the future of our community. I moved to Boulder 11 years ago after completing my degree in Political Science at The College of William & Mary. I quickly fell in love with Boulder's natural beauty, creative spirit and commitment to the environment. My first year here I taught civics at The Watershed School where I engaged with my students in community issues and volunteered with Meals on Wheels. Later, I joined the Board of New Era Colorado where I served for five years registering voters, fighting for marriage equality and campaigning for Local Power. Through New Era I helped launch a campaign to reduce disposable bags. That campaign resulted in our bag fee ordinance, which has prevented thousands of bags from entering our landfill.

My family has been in Boulder and/or Boulder County since 1954. I really don't appreciate some progressive do-gooder who just moved here and knows how to work the social circles targeting my family's lifestyle.

[Gman]

City attorney is a moron. While commenting on a photo of a plain jane 10/22 a council member asked why it would be banned and he said it had a pistol grip.
Someone is afraid of furniture.

I agree with BP, thanks for the info def.

[BPTactical]

Someone is afraid of furniture.

I agree with BP, thanks for the info def.

Just using talking points poured into their hollow melons by Giffords & Co.

[Irving]

Back in 2012 when the elected officials were openly ignoring everyone speaking their opinions (what's her face was just browsing her tablet the whole time from what I remember). It'd be interesting to occasionally ask board members to recap some points made by citizens to put them on the spot if they are paying attention or not.

[GilpinGuy]

So far based on the mugs in the crowd the vast majority is pro gun though I believe the council is going to pass something regardless of what happens tonight. The building and all of the overflow rooms are full and they are directing people over to the library.


Of course they are! The ruling class doesn't give a shit what the peasants think unless it's an election year AND they are in a close race. Otherwise your opinion, facts and logic don't matter.

[BPTactical]

A buddy is there and texted me that he feels there is some very good representation there on our side.
Hope it makes a difference this go around.
After going through the magazine goat fuck in 2012 I had no desire to sit through another one.

[def90]

A lot of self proclaimed liberals, liberal gun club members and even a LGBQ gun club member standing up for their rights. So far the antis are just reading letters sent in by victims of shootings, no actual statements of their own.

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[Irving]

A lot of self proclaimed liberals, liberal gun club members and even a LGBQ gun club member standing up for their rights. So far the antis are just reading letters sent in by victims of shootings, no actual statements of their own.


Good to hear, on both points.

[GeorgeandSugar]

Saw this on another forum. He makes very good points and nails it as to how I feel every time there is a shooting. Too bad he could not be a speaker in Boulder next week.

https://youtu.be/vo_X53dNTS8


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[.455_Hunter]

A lot of self proclaimed liberals, liberal gun club members and even a LGBQ gun club member standing up for their rights.

Good! This is essential.

[CoGirl303]

I just heard the city attorney refer to a picture of rifles with hunting stocks and proclaim that they had pistol grips.

Then I heard the technical firearms "expert" (the city armorer), tell a council member that the NFA tax stamp could permit SBRs and silencers, but not machine guns.

I don't think these people know what they are talking about.

By the way, whomever said "then don't be stupid" in response to the city attorney's request not to be laughed at is a rude jackass that is hurting our cause.

And the action continues...

how is it these people can mock our rights, trample on the Constitution, and try to ban guns but someone says "then dont be stupid" and thats hurting our cause and he's a rude jackass?

Fuck their feelings. I for one am tired of having to walk around on eggshells around these people. They dont own me. They dont own us. Screw playing nice. Pull out the stops and take the gloves off with these people. They'll never listen to reason. They'll never listen to a valid argument of ours. They'll never consider us, our rights or our guns. Throw the full weight of legal recourse at them and say whats on your mind.

I'm a gun owner, I'm proud of it, I'll never apologize for it and I'll never give up any of my firearms no matter what law is passed.


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[Mtneer]

Y'all are wasting your time. It's a done deal. Been here 4 decades and have seen how PLAN makes NRA look like amateurs for controlling their politicians.

Dig deeper into Tom Carr and you'll find his history in Seattle was abysmal and cost the city hundreds of millions from ineptness. Boulder hired him anyhow.

FWIW I was in Whole Foods yesterday (normally avoid the place but really is the best seafood and meat in town). Standing in checkout lane, I couldn't help but notice the large chested woman with the extra small tank top. Aside from her assets, the huge NRA logo and emblem, complimented with a "Don't Tread on Me" baseball hat, was a good chuckle. Probably gave dozens of patrons the vapors. You go girl!

[CoGirl303]

Thanks!

For background, the City Attorney, Tom Carr, grew up in the Bronx and came to Boulder with the following biography:

Carr has served assistant U.S. attorney for New York's eastern district, and he was Seattle's city attorney from 2003 to 2009. He earned his law degree from New York Law School and a bachelor's degree in sociology from St. John's University.

A true firearms expert!

That's something that RMGO, NRA or whoever can use to attack his credibility with in court. They'll have no problem discrediting him and making him look like a clown on the stand.




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[Irving]

[hahhah-no]

I'll give you this because a new member with a gun related profession has popped into my head every 30 seconds since you posted this.

[.455_Hunter]

Standing in checkout lane, I couldn't help but notice the large chested woman with the extra small tank top. Aside from her assets, the huge NRA logo and emblem, complimented with a "Don't Tread on Me" baseball hat, was a good chuckle. Probably gave dozens of patrons the vapors. You go girl!

+10000

[Rucker61]

Y'all are wasting your time. It's a done deal. Been here 4 decades and have seen how PLAN makes NRA look like amateurs for controlling their politicians.

Dig deeper into Tom Carr and you'll find his history in Seattle was abysmal and cost the city hundreds of millions from ineptness. Boulder hired him anyhow.

FWIW I was in Whole Foods yesterday (normally avoid the place but really is the best seafood and meat in town). Standing in checkout lane, I couldn't help but notice the large chested woman with the extra small tank top. Aside from her assets, the huge NRA logo and emblem, complimented with a "Don't Tread on Me" baseball hat, was a good chuckle. Probably gave dozens of patrons the vapors. You go girl!

I have the vapors now.

[BPTactical]

I'll give you this because a new member with a gun related profession has popped into my head every 30 seconds since you posted this.

Damn skippy!
Now go make us sammich's.

[Coffee]

[def90]

John Caldera just spoke and was.number 42.. there are 142 people listed to speak.

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[def90]

Lmao! "Hippies for guns" guy moved his way into a position behind the podium so that he and his sign are on TV

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180406/4f3687e4f4d0de9264c861fd0095f9fe.jpg

[CS1983]

Dude in back is flicking off the camera.

[.455_Hunter]

I assume the "have no use no value" and "absurd" is an enlightened anti spreading their common sense wisdom.

[CS1983]

Maybe he's a John Birch Society member talking about the city council?

[DOC]

Back in 2012 when the elected officials were openly ignoring everyone speaking their opinions (what's her face was just browsing her tablet the whole time from what I remember). It'd be interesting to occasionally ask board members to recap some points made by citizens to put them on the spot if they are paying attention or not. When the first repeal bill came up and was in the house committee. The liberals were texting each other about what food they wanted and when I was talking all three liberals were stuffing their faces with hamburgers. I should have asked them to stop eating until I was done or asked for some fries. I didn't get to order anything.

[CoGirl303]

https://bouldercolorado.gov/boulder8

live stream...if its still going


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[hatidua]

Coucilperson Mirabai Nagel walked out when the public comments began this evening.

[def90]

Dudley Browns name came up to speak 20 or so minutes ago and he has yet to show..

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[DOC]

She should answer for that. I wonder what her excuse is going to be?

[.455_Hunter]

Lovely.

[Blowby]

Current speaker lives in downtown Boulder stated she is against the deaths from mass shootings and then follows by saying she worked for planned parenthood in Massachusetts. WTF is she doing here and how many did she kill.

[boxy]

Coucilperson Mirabai Nagel walked out when the public comments began this evening.

To her credit, she read and responded to my email and said I had excellent points. I believe she was there as well when I spoke.

[hurley842002]

WTF is she doing here and how many did she kill.

Hopefully someone has the balls to ask her in front of everyone.

[boxy]

City attorney is a moron. While commenting on a photo of a plain jane 10/22 a council member asked why it would be banned and he said it had a pistol grip.

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That was the funniest thing I've seen all week.

[hatidua]

City attorney is a moron.

That's giving him far more credit than is due based on what I witnessed this evening.

[Kilyung]

No question - they’re going to pass the ordinance.

[theGinsue]

Threads merged.

[.455_Hunter]

Was state pre-emption discussed during the meeting, either by the council minions or speakers?

[RblDiver]

I left around 9:45. In that time, there were 21 people (well, speakers, counting those couple that had a few in the same block as one) speaking in favor of the ban, 50 against (one guy was...weird, the whole "My lineage has been here forever, can I ignore your laws" or something), and 3 neutral or both sides.

And yet it still passed first reading unanimously. One person'd asked them "Why don't you put it to a city vote instead of passing it yourselves?" Because clearly the people don't want it, and the council can't let their voices be heard!

Oh, it was also funny, I was in the downstairs, occasionally there'd be some clapping for a well-made point, they kept whining, "Some people are feeling uncomfortable" due to the applause. I really wanted to yell out "Politics is uncomfortable!"

(I noticed that they had an officer move to the downstairs area after a few of us booed one guy who was doing the "All the men against this ban have tiny dicks". Apparently that guy didn't listen to the woman who trains other women in guns!)

[RblDiver]

Was state pre-emption discussed during the meeting, either by the council minions or speakers?

Plenty, they claimed it didn't apply due to the 3-3 CO Supreme Court ruling on the Denver case, or something.

[RblDiver]

My thought is there is a strong possibility he has never handled let alone fired a gun in his lifetime based on that resume.

He's fired before. He told a story how he fired a shotgun and couldn't keep proper hold of it, or something.

[GilpinGuy]

No question - they’re going to pass the ordinance.

Yes they are. This is all mental masturbation. See my earlier post.

If it doesn't pass, I'll eat even more bacon and rejoice [werdo]

[BPTactical]

Kabuki Theater.
And this is why I decided not to go.
No amount of protest, no amount to testimony will sway their agenda.
Been there, done that-2012 magazine ban.

Today Boulder.
Tomorrow Centennial, Golden, Thornton, Westminster etc.

This state is lost.

[boxy]

I guess it'll be up to the courts then. Did Dudley ever show up?

[Ramsker]

Well . . . no surprise there. It was never NOT going to pass. Hopefully gets challenged in courts and knocked down--but I'm not holding my breath. I generally avoid Boulder as much as possible. One more reason to keep doing that.

Thanks for the effort for those who went to speak on bahalf of gun owners.

[Singlestack]

I was in the library watching this. The first hour or so was the city attorney reviewing the first reading text and giving his opinion of what it meant and the city council asking questions to the city attorney. Each citizen had only 2 minutes to make their point - which goes by very fast when you are presenting facts. Many of the libs were wearing bright orange T shirts - couldn't see what they said on them. They were all hung up about giving the appearance the measure wasn't anti-gun by including a provision that the new law won't apply to those who are members of competitive shooting clubs. So apparently all you need to do is start your own shooting club and invite your friends.

The councilors truly do not understand firearms at all. One asked what a "suppressor" was, and another asked if a conventional rifle stock included a pistol grip! And these people are, among themselves (without a vote), enacting laws the boulderites will be subjected to. I left after the city attorney wouldn't answer the lady who asked if they were going to put it on the ballot so people could vote on it. Nope, just plain ol tyranny. Given how bat***t crrazy my city council is (Lafayette), I fully expect them to adopt Boulder's stupid ordnance at some point. The only thing in our favor is they are 100% consumed with the whole anti-fracking movement right now and gun control may not be enough of a shiny object.

[.455_Hunter]

I am not saying it won't get passed, but this was first reading. It's not law yet.

[kidicarus13]

I haven't had time to watch it yet. So which proposal were they pushing?

1.) Ban sales only
2.] Ban sales and possession with grandfathering and registration
3.) Ban sales and possession with no grandfathering but with exceptions

Mags limited to 10rds?

[Hummer]

The Boulder city council is the perfect convergence of ignorance, arrogance and evil. In a just world they would all be hanged for treason.

[boxy]

I haven't had time to watch it yet. So which proposal were they pushing?

1.) Ban sales only
2.] Ban sales and possession with grandfathering and registration
3.) Ban sales and possession with no grandfathering but with exceptions

Mags limited to 10rds?

The proposal seems to be number 2. Mags are limited to 10 rounds... one confusing thing is that pistol mags over 10 seem to be exempted in one part of the proposal... but they're also included in another part? I believe someone spoke to that.

[Singlestack]

Part of the problem with the effectiveness of our side is these anti-gun hearings is the short time limit (2 min) you have to speak, and the effectiveness of making a canned speech like most do. In my opinion, the most effective use of the time is to refute incorrect or misleading things said by the other side. For example, some guy talked about the Virginia Tech Shooter having high capacity magazines. In reality, she shooter (Cho) had 10 round magazines for his P22, and likely not more than 15 rounders for his G19 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seung-Hui_Cho. Another person mentioned that 6 students escaped from Parkland when the shooter reloaded. I hadn't read anything about that, but the impression this left with the sheep is that by making sure (since mass murderers always follow the laws) active shooters can't use more than 10 round magazines, more victims will be spared when they pause to reload. This type of reasoning is what fills their heads and needs to be countered immediately - during the "hearing". In reality, magazine limits hinder law abiding more than the mass murderers since mass murderers can bring as many mags as they way, use NY reloads, and are usually in a gun-free zone of their own choosing and won't have anyone firing back for some time.

Relative to facts and firearms, the city council are as ignorant as sheep. Ignorant people simply don't know what they don't know, and are willing to accept as fact what they hear from like-minded people. By not countering directly what is feeding their fears, in their mind they are doing what is right and responsible and may have some positive effect on future body counts. It takes those who are more articulate than me to make a dent in their thinking in 2 minutes by speaking off the cuff in this way without a prepared speech - a tall order in my opinion. Few are good at that, and the speakers who were speaking off the cuff last night were almost all jumbled, disorganized, and very far from persuasive.

[DenverGP]

Part of the problem with the effectiveness of our side is these anti-gun hearings

The real problem is it's all theater. In each case, the decision is over and done with long before these public meetings, and this is just so they claim it's democracy. You could have Abraham Lincoln or Winston Churchill arguing for our side and it wouldn't change anything.

[RblDiver]

I will say, while I figured it was foregone that it'd be passed (both on this first reading and eventually when finalized), I had thought, based on one member's questioning, that it might not be unanimous, but guess I was wrong.

[.455_Hunter]

Who was that? Sam Weaver?

[Gman]

The best description I've ever heard for Boulder - "Boulder is 180,000 people, surrounded by reality."

[.455_Hunter]

The best description I've ever heard for Boulder - "Boulder is 180,000 people, surrounded by reality."

Until the same thing happens in your local city council next month.

[KeepinCalm]

After watching 3 hours of that it was clear it would be unanimous. Despite them being a council this reeks of typical boulder hypocrisy and fascism.

The question is what now?
I Think the boycott is one step that wont fix it, but a problem like this is not going to have a silver bullet. The anti's want to bleed us with the death of a thousand cuts, we need to reciprocate. Boulder already has a negative inertia of funds flowing to longmont, Louisville, and surrounding areas. Play the long game and continue to do everything to defund the city so it once again becomes a more "down to earth hippy haven" it claims its Lilly white rich sheltered grass roots sprang from. The city council clearly has too much of a budget if they are spending time on feel good measures. One curiosity I have on this is the demographic of sports fans that go to CU for various games. Boycott those teams and all associated revenue sources. If boulder offers any "free" services take full advantage of them so the numbers encourage their council to fund those services.

I doubt boulder will ever be pushed to be the all inclusive diverse sanctuary for minorities it touts, excepting of those minorities it feels are PC and photogenic to stand by, but efforts beyond this can be done to make them less relevant and desirable.

Lawsuits are needed but the real message that needs to be controlled is to let other cities know that not at least letting a measure like this go to a popular vote will have us exercising our votes in other capitalistic ways. We are more resolute and less prone to fad. Last nights showing outnumber theirs was great, now we need to show where it counts.

I also liked the orange hats for their orange shirts. adopt any color they like as the message is we really are among you and law abiding and we aren't running away.

[Ah Pook]

Has police chief Testa made any comments?

[.455_Hunter]

Testa turned turtle from a few years ago and stated he supports his masters' bidding.

[hatidua]

Has police chief Testa made any comments?

He's exempt. Every one of his officers is exempt. When he and his officers retire, they remain exempt.

[JohnTRourke]

running out of boxes here.

[izzy]

What if I have one of those "official deputy" stickers that they give to kids? Can I be exempt too?

[68Charger]

Does the Boulder shitty counshil still have an illegal immigrant voting on it? (Sorry for my speech impediment)

Wonder if there's some legal issues with a non-citizen making laws to determine/undermine the civil rights of citizens (I mean beyond the usual with citizens doing it, which is not much)

[Gman]

Until the same thing happens in your local city council next month.
Don't have one in the Ranch.

[def90]

There is evidence that a member or two may prefer to settle this via a ballot initiative.. I think we would have a pretty good chance of winning. The only gun controllers there were all part of the Moms group and the High School group and they were all wearing orange. they were there as an organized meeting and the majority of them read scripted responses from the Moms group. They all started with "I am reading this for a friend that couldn't be here tonight".. then went on detailing the story of some person that was killed in a mass shooting event. Outside of them there were maybe 2 or 3 control supporters that appeared to be on their own. The place was dominated by the pro gun side. I know a lot of people here in Boulder that despite being hardcore Liberals, Gay or whatever you can imagine are pretty against this ordinance. The council members email boxes have got to be blowing up.

One question though, if it went to ballot and we some how lost (I think this would only happen if there was a major shooting within the week or two of the election) would it be challengeable in court? Would it be better for them to pass it and sue?

[Grant H.]

Oh look...

What Boulder could be aspiring too...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illinois-town-votes-to-ban-assault-rifles-fine-violators-1000-per-day/

[.455_Hunter]

Don't have one in the Ranch.

That's good. Many members may soon need to be living in non-incorporated areas.

[thedave1164]

I got an interesting response to my email that I sent to the Boulder City Council

“Hi Dave,

I share your concerns on this ordinance.
If you read the paper this morning, it is stating false information that there were many more supporters of the bill, when in fact, 80 people opposed the bill to only 30 in support of it. It was also not clear, that what we passed just gave us the option to discuss the ordinance being proposed at a later date because it was so late.

My hope, is that if people want this to move forward, they will attempt to get the signatures required to put it on the ballot for people to vote, rather than Council making the decisions.
Thank you for being involved. You are always welcome to email Council at Council@bouldercolorado.gov as well.

Kind regards,
Mirabai Nagle
Boulder City Council “

[sellersm]

The real problem is it's all theater. In each case, the decision is over and done with long before these public meetings, and this is just so they claim it's democracy. You could have Abraham Lincoln or Winston Churchill arguing for our side and it wouldn't change anything.

Participatory fascism. We've been over this and over this. There is no 'will of the people'. It's all a sham. Period. The system is in place and will continue to thrive until the appointed time of its end... I suggest people vote with their feet and move out if they don't like what's going on. And pray. A lot.

[boxy]

I got an interesting response to my email that I sent to the Boulder City Council

“Hi Dave,

I share your concerns on this ordinance.
If you read the paper this morning, it is stating false information that there were many more supporters of the bill, when in fact, 80 people opposed the bill to only 30 in support of it. It was also not clear, that what we passed just gave us the option to discuss the ordinance being proposed at a later date because it was so late.

My hope, is that if people want this to move forward, they will attempt to get the signatures required to put it on the ballot for people to vote, rather than Council making the decisions.
Thank you for being involved. You are always welcome to email Council at Council@bouldercolorado.gov as well.

Kind regards,
Mirabai Nagle
Boulder City Council “

Ms. Nagle also responded favorably to my email. Even if she is an anti, I think she realizes things are not as simple as they appear.

[Blowby]

Sent all my correspondence out. I'll wait for the follow up.

COUNCIL MEMBER BOB YATES
720-310-5829
yatesb@bouldercolorado.gov

COUNCIL MEMBER CINDY CARLISLE
303-434-1456
carlislec@bouldercolorado.gov

COUNCIL MEMBER JILL ADLER GRANO
303-917-6810
granoj@bouldercolorado.gov

COUNCIL MEMBER LISA MORZEL
303-815-6723
morzell@bouldercolorado.gov

COUNCIL MEMBER MARY D. YOUNG
303-501-2439
youngm@bouldercolorado.gov

COUNCIL MEMBER MIRABAI KUK NAGLE
303-818-4128
naglem@bouldercolorado.gov

COUNCIL MEMBER SAM WEAVER
303-416-6130
WeaverS@bouldercolorado.gov

MAYOR SUZANNE JONES
720-633-7388
joness@bouldercolorado.gov

MAYOR PRO TEM AARON BROCKETT
720-984-1863
brocketta@bouldercolorado.gov

[def90]

I got an interesting response to my email that I sent to the Boulder City Council

“Hi Dave,

I share your concerns on this ordinance.
If you read the paper this morning, it is stating false information that there were many more supporters of the bill, when in fact, 80 people opposed the bill to only 30 in support of it. It was also not clear, that what we passed just gave us the option to discuss the ordinance being proposed at a later date because it was so late.

My hope, is that if people want this to move forward, they will attempt to get the signatures required to put it on the ballot for people to vote, rather than Council making the decisions.
Thank you for being involved. You are always welcome to email Council at Council@bouldercolorado.gov as well.

Kind regards,
Mirabai Nagle
Boulder City Council “

Yeah, I get the feeling that a couple of the members know they are overstepping and are starting to feel the pressure and are looking for a way to get out of the jam they created and still somehow save face. There are a number of prominent business people and residents that are very much against this and have not come out publicly for fear of public backlash. I have a feeling some people are putting on pressure in other ways. Boulder might be the laughing stock of the country but there are a lot of closet liberal gun nuts here.

And yes, the vote last night just allows them to continue the discussion.

one thing they have to ponder is that the city has 85000 voting age residents and the turn out in the last election was something in the high 80% range and the most votes any council member got was a little over 5000, they do not represent the people here in any way.

[CoGirl303]

Part of the problem with the effectiveness of our side is these anti-gun hearings is the short time limit (2 min) you have to speak, and the effectiveness of making a canned speech like most do. In my opinion, the most effective use of the time is to refute incorrect or misleading things said by the other side. For example, some guy talked about the Virginia Tech Shooter having high capacity magazines. In reality, she shooter (Cho) had 10 round magazines for his P22, and likely not more than 15 rounders for his G19 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seung-Hui_Cho. Another person mentioned that 6 students escaped from Parkland when the shooter reloaded. I hadn't read anything about that, but the impression this left with the sheep is that by making sure (since mass murderers always follow the laws) active shooters can't use more than 10 round magazines, more victims will be spared when they pause to reload. This type of reasoning is what fills their heads and needs to be countered immediately - during the "hearing". In reality, magazine limits hinder law abiding more than the mass murderers since mass murderers can bring as many mags as they way, use NY reloads, and are usually in a gun-free zone of their own choosing and won't have anyone firing back for some time.

Relative to facts and firearms, the city council are as ignorant as sheep. Ignorant people simply don't know what they don't know, and are willing to accept as fact what they hear from like-minded people. By not countering directly what is feeding their fears, in their mind they are doing what is right and responsible and may have some positive effect on future body counts. It takes those who are more articulate than me to make a dent in their thinking in 2 minutes by speaking off the cuff in this way without a prepared speech - a tall order in my opinion. Few are good at that, and the speakers who were speaking off the cuff last night were almost all jumbled, disorganized, and very far from persuasive.

no need to disrespect sheep now you hear? They serve a valid purpose. These wool socks I'm wearing are nice warm. So is the blanket I sleep under.

The lemmings you refer to on the other hand...disrespect away.



Until the same thing happens in your local city council next month.

I think he was referring to the scenery and mountains surrounding Boulder as the "reality".


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[wctriumph]

Boulder, CO; 26 square miles surrounded by reality.

[hatidua]

Boulder, CO; 26 square miles surrounded by reality.

No disrespect, and I realize that phrase is merely parroting something that has been said for nearly a century about almost every university town in the country. However, I'll step up and be the bearer of sad news: the recent gun control push in Boulder, including last night, was years after many of us stood at the capitol, wrote countless letters and made untold numbers of phone calls trying to prevent the statewide gun control laws that were enacted in 2013. If the rest of CO resembled the laws in Wyoming/South Carolina/et al, I'd grant you some validity to a phrase that is as worn out as "sorry your gal lost", but the "reality" is that Colorado laws aren't trending toward the idealistic freedom-loving West that many may have once known. This state is rapidly becoming California 2.0 and while I'm not happy about that, that, is the reality.

I'm trying to do what I can on my end, but pushing an incoming tide is omminous.

[sellersm]

No disrespect, and I realize that phrase is merely parroting something that has been said for nearly a century about almost every university town in the country. However, I'll step up and be the bearer of sad news: the recent gun control push in Boulder, including last night, was years after many of us stood at the capitol, wrote countless letters and made untold numbers of phone calls trying to prevent the statewide gun control laws that were enacted in 2013. If the rest of CO resembled the laws in Wyoming/South Carolina/et al, I'd grant you some validity to a phrase that is as worn out as "sorry your gal lost", but the "reality" is that Colorado laws aren't trending toward the idealistic freedom-loving West that many may have once known. This state is rapidly becoming California 2.0 and while I'm not happy about that, that, is the reality.

I'm trying to do what I can on my end, but pushing an incoming tide is omminous.

Quoted for truth.

Serious question: what State has reversed such a trend as this, given the same legislative makeup as CO and travelled as far down the road to tyranny as we have travelled?


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[def90]

Boulder, CO; 26 square miles surrounded by reality.In general yes, that is the truth.. as well as the Village Coffee Shop is 890sqft surrounder by Boulder.

Boulder is an enigma. Yes it's a liberal bastion but in reality I have met tons of pro gun 2A people here. Boulder may lean left but at the same time the core is very classic liberal in terms of personal freedoms, independence, and big government stay out of my life.

In the last 10 years the Californians have taken over a bit but there has been push back. Googles new building had bricks thrown through a few of the windows a couple weeks ago and now a few of the new Council Members are finding out that the locals as liberal as they are aren't going to take this without a fight.

I know a Council member personally so I have a connection that can't ignore me as.if Inwas blasting out a random email. This member was disappointed by the lack of knowledge that the city attorney displayed last night.

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[thedave1164]

In general yes, that is the truth.. as well as the Village Coffee Shop is 890sqft surrounder by Boulder.

Boulder is an enigma. Yes it's a liberal bastion but in reality I have met tons of pro gun 2A people here. Boulder may lean left but at the same time the core is very classic liberal in terms of personal freedoms, independence, and big government stay out of my life.

In the last 10 years the Californians have taken over a bit but there has been push back. Googles new building had bricks thrown through a few of the windows a couple weeks ago and now a few of the new Council Members are finding out that the locals as liberal as they are aren't going to take this without a fight.

I know a Council member personally so I have a connection that can't ignore me as.if Inwas blasting out a random email. This member was disappointed by the lack of knowledge that the city attorney displayed last night.

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The City Attorney May be the best friend we have, clearly there were those that were not impressed, I also have it on good authority that he is not highly regarded amongst his peers

[hurley842002]

No disrespect, and I realize that phrase is merely parroting something that has been said for nearly a century about almost every university town in the country. However, I'll step up and be the bearer of sad news: the recent gun control push in Boulder, including last night, was years after many of us stood at the capitol, wrote countless letters and made untold numbers of phone calls trying to prevent the statewide gun control laws that were enacted in 2013. If the rest of CO resembled the laws in Wyoming/South Carolina/et al, I'd grant you some validity to a phrase that is as worn out as "sorry your gal lost", but the "reality" is that Colorado laws aren't trending toward the idealistic freedom-loving West that many may have once known. This state is rapidly becoming California 2.0 and while I'm not happy about that, that, is the reality.

I'm trying to do what I can on my end, but pushing an incoming tide is omminous.Good post!

[def90]

The City Attorney May be the best friend we have, clearly there were those that were not impressed, I also have it on good authority that he is not highly regarded amongst his peersYeah, if he would be the one representing Boulder he would be torn apart in a minute.

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[Jeffrey Lebowski]

Serious question: what State has reversed such a trend as this, given the same legislative makeup as CO and travelled as far down the road to tyranny as we have travelled?


Wisconsin has moved right in terms of gun laws quite a bit from when I moved away 20 years ago.

[def90]

Quoted for truth.

Serious question: what State has reversed such a trend as this, given the same legislative makeup as CO and travelled as far down the road to tyranny as we have travelled?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThere are a couple states that have passed legislation that states that any additional federal firearms laws would be null and void. I think (throwing from the hip after a couple Rios margs) maybe Missouri, Wyoming and Montana? South Craolina seems to be in the same realm to me.

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[CoGirl303]

There are a couple states that have passed legislation that states that any additional federal firearms laws would be null and void. I think (throwing from the hip after a couple Rios margs) maybe Missouri, Wyoming and Montana? South Craolina seems to be in the same realm to me.

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I thought Texas did as well?


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[Irving]

Despite what the rest the country thinks, Texas gun laws are a bit shit.

[def90]

Despite what the rest the country thinks, Texas gun laws are a bit shit.Yeah, Texas is not what people think.. Texas sold off all their public land decades ago. There is very little to no public shooting areas as in National Forest, BLM or State public hunting grounds.

Inhave looked into moving to Texas, I have good friends in New Braunfels. When you look at public land in Texas it is pretty bleak.

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[FromMyColdDeadHand]

So here is how I see it. They pass it. It goes to court and the city claims that the Meyer decision hold for them too because the Assault Weapons are too much of a threat.

The real question is what does the CO Supreme Court look like now compared to back then? If they have four solid Progressive votes, all the lawyer for Boulder has to do is show up and say that guns are bad, pretty please. Aurora will go, I would think. I really don't know what it looks like otherwise. These local elections will get hot again. Frankly, I think it was a mistake moving to CO from the midwest. Crazy house prices, crazy traffic, and crazy laws- not to mention the mountians are a tease with cost and traffic. Give me WI or MI with all the lakes and land for fun and winters to choke fair-weather Progressives migration. All ready have started in with the wife that this isn't working for me. Eight years for my daughter to go to college and I don't see myself here anymore.

Colorado in the mutation or liberal to progressives had hewed closer to the libertarian angle. Lots of progressives, but a lot of libertarians too.

I know people won't like it, but if all this AWB stuff goes to SCOTUS and Kennedy feels grumpy, the NFA and shooting competitor carve out may be all that we end up with.

The mag limit is really where they are screwing with things right now. If Boulder goes 10, then Denver will go 10 and maybe do a real AWB ban like the Boulder one. Progressive Virtue-signalling and all.

[Great-Kazoo]

Quoted for truth.

Serious question: what State has reversed such a trend as this, given the same legislative makeup as CO and travelled as far down the road to tyranny as we have travelled?


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None. The parasitic mass (known as californians) that has moved across the country destroying every freedom in it's path. Is destined for a town council seat near you.

[Ah Pook]

He's exempt. Every one of his officers is exempt. When he and his officers retire, they remain exempt.

But will he actively go out and confiscate firearms? Yes, Boulder and Boulder Co have lap dogs in place but when shiat gets real, what will they do?

I read somewhere, can't find any facts, that Boulder has the highest SBR concentration in the state. Any facts to support that?

[Ah Pook]

None. The parasitic mass (known as californians) that has moved across the country destroying every freedom in it's path. Is destined for a town council seat near you.

I came across a couple two weeks ago.

"We are from LA and just moved here. We're locals now"

No the fawk you are not. You are the problem. Go back home.

Got a funny look.

[Ah Pook]

Yeah, Texas is not what people think.. Texas sold off all their public land decades ago. There is very little to no public shooting areas as in National Forest, BLM or State public hunting grounds.

Inhave looked into moving to Texas, I have good friends in New Braunfels. When you look at public land in Texas it is pretty bleak.

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Grew up in TX. The only place a citizen could shoot was at a private range. Luckily I knew private land holders and could shoot on their property. Shooting areas are shrinking around here but still more options than what I grew up with.

[def90]

But will he actively go out and confiscate firearms? Yes, Boulder and Boulder Co have lap dogs in place but when shiat gets real, what will they do?

I read somewhere, can't find any facts, that Boulder has the highest SBR concentration in the state. Any facts to support that?

I have heard that Boulder has one of the highest NFA per person registrations in the country as well from a few sources but can't find any specific numbers online in regards to cities specifically. The founder of Soldier of Fortune Magazine lives in Boulder as well as some other people under the radar so who knows.

Here are some NFA numbers from 2015. Colorado has 1.36 machine guns per 1000 residents, 3.1 suppressors per 1000, .82 SBRs per 1000, .31 SBSs per 1000 and 8.89 destructive devices per 1000. None of the numbers that I have found list per city/capita. Based on these numbers I don't see it unless the majority of NFA items in Colorado are in Boulder.

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/13/owned-by-5-million-americans-ar-15-under-renewed-fire-after-orlando-massacre.html

[Ah Pook]

Like I aid, it's here say.

Gun Sport CO is one of my favorite places. There are hippies, cowboys, miners and nar du wells in there. Custom skeet to EBRs in the same place.

To me that is the reality.

[Ah Pook]

Amen Brother!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6Nlb_qRoeg

[def90]

Like I aid, it's here say.

Gun Sport CO is one of my favorite places. There are hippies, cowboys, miners and nar du wells in there. Custom skeet to EBRs in the same place.

To me that is the reality.

Yeah, you never know who you will see in that place.. I work in construction and have worked in many high end homes in Boulder. If people only knew what their neighbors had. Gun ownership of all kinds is pretty widespread in Boulder, that's all I can say.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Yeah, you never know who you will see in that place.. I work in construction and have worked in many high end homes in Boulder. If people only knew what their neighbors had. Gun ownership of all kinds is pretty widespread in Boulder, that's all I can say.

Progressive gun grabbers don't think that they know anyone with guns. I try to stay 'gray' about it, but I have been getting lipier especialy since the recent Denver stuff. Before that, one of my kids friends dad came up at a school function and just said "You're a gun guy, right?". He's pretty perceptive, but I didn't tell him that anytime he's seen me with pants on I was carrying.....

It is all about 'red-neck cleansing'. In the recent Denver mag stuff, I was told to move out of town since I wasn't the kind of person that needed to be here.

Do we need to shut down highways?


Let me put this out there. Boulder, you are fucked. What I want to talk about now is how to get fucked the least. I catch a lot of hell for it, but I am all about reducing the damage as much as you can for as long as you can till SCOTUS finally puts the red line down. I understand that some people want the issue more than reducing the damage- that is a strategy, one that usually is paid in checks written and not paid for by the people advocating free-machine guns or nothing. Dudley do-nothing good is a prime example.
I was just thinking about the law proposed. If you look at is closely, they agree with our main premise- it isn't the gun it is the person; they allow LEOs and NFA and sportsman(?) to have them- so they are saying that there are legitimate reasons to own these- and that the issue is who- not what - people have. So the disagreement is where that line is. We say that baring any reason why we can't have an AR (we have had UBGC for 5 years, so everyone is vetted or has not been an issue for five years), we shouldn't penalize law abiding people. They move that line to the left of that.
So what do you have to do to impress a majority on the council to vote for the least damaging law? I don't know where that is. Maybe making the argument that getting the mag limit extended for the NFA/LEO/Sportsman and seeing where that goes? I'd appeal to the libertarian aspects of Boulder and couch that as a balanced (I know some of you pucked in your mouth, I did too) response and see how that works out. There is a perverse balance between what they pass and what might pass legal challenge. If it is really draconian you might get a better outcome- maybe. By using logic and reason on them they may back off and make it less likely to be successfully challenged.

It's better to count votes than to count bullets. I know it wasn't much, but Denver's Councilman Flynn had a majority of votes to at least allow 15+rnd mags in your house, until the deal fell through at the last minute. That wasn't much, I know, but there were people pushing for 0 round limits.

That and we need to focus on local races more. The fed level stuff is a Phony War. States and cities are where they are trying to make their gains- and they are winning there.

It's a shit sandwhich. The question is how big a bite are we going to have to take? I'd like to take as small as I can until SCOTUS draws the line. That is politics.

[WETWRKS]

Guys...we need to go back to old tactics. Start the recall process. Not just in Boulder but the state reps like the 3 who we removed previously. Don't stop with the person removed...remove their replacements till the point gets across that we will keep at them till this ends.

[boxy]

I know a Council member personally so I have a connection that can't ignore me as.if Inwas blasting out a random email. This member was disappointed by the lack of knowledge that the city attorney displayed last night.

I found this article about Tom Carr.... dude is a jackass (as if we didn't know that already).

http://www.boulderweekly.com/news/a-sobering-look-at-tom-carr/

[GilpinGuy]

Guys...we need to go back to old tactics. Start the recall process. Not just in Boulder but the state reps like the 3 who we removed previously. Don't stop with the person removed...remove their replacements till the point gets across that we will keep at them till this ends.

I like this. All they give a shit about is being re/elected and feeling important. Hit them where it hurts.

[68Charger]

Grew up in TX. The only place a citizen could shoot was at a private range. Luckily I knew private land holders and could shoot on their property. Shooting areas are shrinking around here but still more options than what I grew up with.

I haven't been to a range since I moved here, but I have 20 acres... There is a state law that with at least 10 acres, the county can't make a law forbidding you from shooting as long as you keep it on your property.

But yes, not a lot of public land to be mismanaged and then catch fire... (public lands have disadvantages, too.)
The whole needing an LTC to open carry a handgun is BS for sure... but an improvement over verboten. Property rights take precident, but in Rural areas 30.06 signs are rare... 30.07 aren't so rare (open carry ban)

FTF sales are still private, no mag limits...

[kidicarus13]

Saw this on another forum. He makes very good points and nails it as to how I feel every time there is a shooting. Too bad he could not be a speaker in Boulder next week.

https://youtu.be/vo_X53dNTS8


Sent from my iPad using TapatalkRight on!

[def90]

Latest news from a council member that I ran into last night out on the town is that Carr was trying to use the California definition of pistol grip which is defines a pistol grip as a grip that lowers more than some measured distance from the centerline of the bore or something like that so in many instances regular stocked rifles would be considered to have pistol grips. This member was not on board with that and has been doing some research and has acknowledge that Australia never really had any gun crime before their ban and it hasn't changed much since. This member has been doing a lot of research and is now moving away from the ban as written and is pushing towards a ban on bump stocks and trigger rate devices only and sending any kind of a ban to vote as a ballot initiative where it will likely die.