Christians on the board...

I am a Christian. I apologize to anyone who has met me that would be surprised by my declaration of faith. I apologize that my faith is not more evident in my observable character.

Disclaimer: I am not a theologian. I speak with no authority except that which is given to me by my experience and creator. My opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it [Flower]

Christ, while God was also man. Unlike any other man, he is without sin. Being without sin and being God allows his efforts and teaching to be perfect. As a sinful man, all that I do is imperfect and falls short of God's purpose and glory. Anything instituted, organized, managed, run by, or otherwise associated with human beings will always fall short of God's purpose.

I am fearful about a great many things, including the future of our nation and for my children. I do not fear my own death so much as I fear for the consequences that my death would have for my wife and children. I am guilty of spending too much time and attention to the daily concerns of the world. It is another symptom of my sinfulness. I worry about things that I know that God has control over. I don't know what God's plan is and I don't know who God has chosen. I can never truly understand why anything happens the way it does in this life. All analogies break down at some point, but here is the one I will offer: How can an amoeba fully realize all of the implications of everything in the world when it doesn't know how big the world is? How can I fully realize the mind of God and all of his will when I don't know how big it is?

God is my anchor. God is my rock. God is my fortress.

Whatever comes, will come. I pray that I will do my best to represent the God who gives me this life. Regardless of my performance, God loves me and I can do nothing to change that.

I can not tell you why I believe what I believe as I do not believe it is something I had total control over. It is faith, and all that I know is that I believe. I have peace in that knowledge. I wish that I could find a way to give that peace to others, but it is not my peace to give. I pray that everyone can find that peace.

Do I still worry about the stupidity, violence, hate, ignorance, and indifference that surrounds us everyday? Yes! Should I? No. I am a weak and sinful man.

Be safe.

My personal beliefs are based on Christianity, but with that "IDK" mentality that is more akin to Atheists (although I believe in God and the teachings of Jesus). I take the biblical tales with a grain of salt and do not treat them as historical fact, but more stories of heroism, justice, and how to act towards others and be right with the Lord. I don't subscribe to a "mass religion" but do believe, and in my beliefs, much like that of Thomas Jefferson, my religious beliefs are individual, not dictated by an organized "Church." I drink, I lust, I swear, I covet, I assassinate the character of others, I have hate in my heart, etc. But I don't see myself as a "bad" person, as I do still believe in the simple fact that Jesus did die for my sins, that he is the only begotten son, and so on and so forth. I see the current political discourse as simply another test from God, one that might test the limits of our patience, virtue, and see how far we are willing to go so that future generations may live in peace and liberty. I would hope that God would be forgiving if SHTF and us righteous were forced into direct conflict with tyranny.

A lot of various things going on in this thread, but I just want to touch on one pet peeve of mine. Christ was in no way a pacifist. Some other posters have already touched on a legitimate use of violence, but I always come back to Luke 22:35-38. Christ clearly admonishes the Apostles to be armed in a time of crisis. And for those who may wish to say that such swords were metaphorical, the Apostles show Christ two physical swords and then He finishes His admonition for them to be armed.

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Originally Posted by Sawin

Stay focused on the areas you can impact and be a blessing for your neighbor first,

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I like this... that's some solid advice there.

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Originally Posted by ChunkyMonkey

When it comes to obeying our govt, look up Psalms 22:28. Take it as you may... this govt is corrupt and ultimately I live my life by the only Book that matters.

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"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves” (Romans 13:1-2)"

“Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right” (1 Peter 2:13-14).


Not arguing here, just playing devil's advocate. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by BigBear

For instance, Luke 22 (v36 I think), Jesus tells his disciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword.

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I've always enjoyed this verse...

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Originally Posted by muddywings

TL;DR
How did the founding fathers deal with it?

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I believe that the founding fathers were inspired to their revolution by God. No question about it.

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Originally Posted by Dingo

I like this... that's some solid advice there.





"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves” (Romans 13:1-2)"

“Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right” (1 Peter 2:13-14).


Not arguing here, just playing devil's advocate. Thoughts?




I've always enjoyed this verse...



I believe that the founding fathers were inspired to their revolution by God. No question about it.

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Mark 12:17, the famous verse about rendering unto Caesar. We are only bound to give to the government that which is legitimately their due. So now you get into the realm of just and unjust laws.

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

I see the current political discourse as simply another test from God, one that might test the limits of our patience, virtue, and see how far we are willing to go so that future generations may live in peace and liberty.

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I agree, however I don't believe it's a test from God so much as just the natural, predictable, plodding progression downward to a bad direction. Probably borne of human nature. The test will be how we react to it.

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Originally Posted by cstone

How can I fully realize the mind of God and all of his will when I don't know how big it is?
God is my anchor. God is my rock. God is my fortress.
Whatever comes, will come. I pray that I will do my best to represent the God who gives me this life. Regardless of my performance, God loves me and I can do nothing to change that.

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I agree. It's comforting to realize that I don't have to have everything completely figured out on my own.

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Originally Posted by Southbridge

Mark 12:17, the famous verse about rendering unto Caesar. We are only bound to give to the government that which is legitimately their due. So now you get into the realm of just and unjust laws.

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I think discerning those very things are a large part of the reason that God gave us common sense, and the ability for critical thought. (Pity the vast majority out there have abdicated those responsibilities and would prefer to have their TV think for them.)

For me, it comes down to my relationship with God through Christ. I've been trying to learn how to walk "hand in hand" with God, and allow my life to be fully directed by Him, as Jesus' life was (John 14-15). Therefore, the answer to questions like this, and many others, is to find what God's perspective/viewpoint/mind is on the issue at hand. The conclusion I've come to is this: I will obey what God tells me to do at the time I need to make a choice. One of the roles of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus teaches in John 16, is to "lead and guide us into all Truth". So, if I have the Holy Spirit, I should be able to ask Him what He wants me to know about a given situation...

I know that can sound like a cop-out, but in fact, it's quite the opposite. It's taken me a long number of years of practicing obedience (and yielding and submission) to get to the point where I can be trusted by God so that He knows I'll do what He tells me to do!! I'm still working on it, all the time...

Jesus gave us some insight, however, into this issue in Matthew 23. He's "blasting" the Pharisees, who represent the '.gov' of the day for the nation of Israel, and He says this:

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Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:² “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.³ So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.⁴ They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

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So Jesus makes it clear that there's some kind of responsibility to following the rules, but we are NOT to follow the lifestyles (which of course, indicates that the beliefs behind those lifestyles are NOT to be adopted by us). Or at least, that's what I see in those verses...

Also, here's an interesting perspective on the Scriptures related to some of this issue (not so much the .gov part), I'll post the link cuz the article's quite lengthy: http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/the-...d-self-defense

May God grant us all His Wisdom as we seek to know Him better.

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Originally Posted by Dingo

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves” (Romans 13:1-2)"

“Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right” (1 Peter 2:13-14).


Not arguing here, just playing devil's advocate. Thoughts?



I believe that the founding fathers were inspired to their revolution by God. No question about it.

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^^ why?

You just answered yourself. Again refer to Psalms 22:28 as to which nation/govt to obey. When the govt violated The commandments by killing its own citizen, theft etc, it's no longer His nations. This is an extremely simple question. Will you obey Hitler's command to kill the Jews? No. Why?

I too am one of those that is weak, broken and human, struggling with trying to be what God wants and failing. Yet I keep trying.

I struggle with doing what is right in God's eyes, rendering unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's, yet realizing that there comes a point of injustice that does not (or must not) need to be tolerated. At some point we must just say 'No'.

My belief is that we are not required to tolerate everything. We must have standards, morals, virtues that are unwaverable. If/when our government institutes illegal, immoral, unethical laws/regulations, then we must react. Whether this is voting, educating our neighbors on the topics, running for political office ourselves, withdrawing to the wilderness or armed rebellion, I would hope that God will be the one leading us in those efforts.

There are times to turn the other cheek, run away and hide, stand up and fight. I think that God gives us certain characteristics, personality traits and abilities to perform whatever tasks He will lay out before us. I can't help but think He has planned for me to be a soldier at some point. I've done it for Uncle Sam in the past, but may have the ultimate General in the future.

Things will get worse before they get better. God first, family second, friends third. Our government will become tyrannical and more Godless than it already is. I will not suffer a tyrant.

That is a common misunderstanding. I've heard many sermons on this topic and the short answer is Christians are not of this world (Jesus said this) and we're not going to answer to the rulers of this world (Cesar). You are to obey the rulers that are give to you (Priest, Pastor, Rabbi....).