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Are you a citizen?
Do you have anyone else in the trunk?
Do you have any weapons in the vehicle?
Do you have any high capacity magazines?
Fuck that. Just to be clear, these stops were not at the border, right?
ps, the last guy was funny too. Do you have ID on you? Where are YOU headed? etc
I saw a website or video somewhere where a lawyer explains exactly what you do and do not have to do when you are confronted by a LEO.. wish I could find it again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid
Found something on the ACLU site:
YOUR RIGHTS
- You have the right to remain silent. If you wish to exercise that right, say so out loud.
- You have the right to refuse to consent to a search of yourself, your car or your home.
- If you are not under arrest, you have the right to calmly leave.
- You have the right to a lawyer if you are arrested. Ask for one immediately.
- Regardless of your immigration or citizenship status, you have constitutional rights.
YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES
- Do stay calm and be polite.
- Do not interfere with or obstruct the police.
- Do not lie or give false documents.
- Do prepare yourself and your family in case you are arrested.
- Do remember the details of the encounter.
- Do file a written complaint or call your local ACLU if you feel your rights have been violated.
IF YOU ARE STOPPED FOR QUESTIONING
Stay calm. Don't run. Don't argue, resist or obstruct the police, even if you are innocent or police are violating your rights. Keep your hands where police can see them.
Ask if you are free to leave. If the officer says yes, calmly and silently walk away. If you are under arrest, you have a right to know why.
You have the right to remain silent and cannot be punished for refusing to answer questions. If you wish to remain silent, tell the officer out loud. In some states, you must give your name if asked to identify yourself.
You do not have to consent to a search of yourself or your belongings, but police may "pat down" your clothing if they suspect a weapon. You should not physically resist, but you have the right to refuse consent for any further search. If you do consent, it can affect you later in court.
IF YOU ARE STOPPED IN YOUR CAR
Stop the car in a safe place as quickly as possible. Turn off the car, turn on the internal light, open the window part way and place your hands on the wheel.
Upon request, show police your driver's license, registration and proof of insurance.
If an officer or immigration agent asks to look inside your car, you can refuse to consent to the search. But if police believe your car contains evidence of a crime, your car can be searched without your consent.
Both drivers and passengers have the right to remain silent. If you are a passenger, you can ask if you are free to leave. If the officer says yes, sit silently or calmly leave. Even if the officer says no, you have the right to remain silent.
IF YOU ARE QUESTIONED ABOUT YOUR IMMIGRATION STATUS
You have the right to remain silent and do not have to discuss your immigration or citizenship status with police, immigration agents or any other officials. You do not have to answer questions about where you were born, whether you are a U.S. citizen, or how you entered the country. (Separate rules apply at international borders and airports, and for individuals on certain nonimmigrant visas, including tourists and business travelers.)
If you are not a U.S. citizen and an immigration agent requests your immigration papers, you must show them if you have them with you. If you are over 18, carry your immigration documents with you at all times. If you do not have immigration papers, say you want to remain silent.
Do not lie about your citizenship status or provide fake documents.
IF THE POLICE OR IMMIGRATION AGENTS COME TO YOUR HOME
If the police or immigration agents come to your home, you do not have to let them in unless they have certain kinds of warrants.
Ask the officer to slip the warrant under the door or hold it up to the window so you can inspect it. A search warrant allows police to enter the address listed on the warrant, but officers can only search the areas and for the items listed. An arrest warrant allows police to enter the home of the person listed on the warrant if they believe the person is inside. A warrant of removal/deportation (ICE warrant) does not allow officers to enter a home without consent.
Even if officers have a warrant, you have the right to remain silent. If you choose to speak to the officers, step outside and close the door.
IF YOU ARE CONTACTED BY THE FBI
If an FBI agent comes to your home or workplace, you do not have to answer any questions. Tell the agent you want to speak to a lawyer first.
If you are asked to meet with FBI agents for an interview, you have the right to say you do not want to be interviewed. If you agree to an interview,have a lawyer present. You do not have to answer any questions you feel uncomfortable answering, and can say that you will only answer questions on a specific topic.
IF YOU ARE ARRESTED
Do not resist arrest, even if you believe the arrest is unfair.
Say you wish to remain silent and ask for a lawyer immediately. Don't give any explanations or excuses. If you can't pay for a lawyer, you have the right to a free one. Don't say anything, sign anything or make any decisions without a lawyer.
You have the right to make a local phone call. The police cannot listen if you call a lawyer.
Prepare yourself and your family in case you are arrested. Memorize the phone numbers of your family and your lawyer. Make emergency plans if you have children or take medication.
Special considerations for non-citizens:
- Ask your lawyer about the effect of a criminal conviction or plea on your immigration status.
- Don't discuss your immigration status with anyone but your lawyer.
- While you are in jail, an immigration agent may visit you. Do not answer questions or sign anything before talking to a lawyer.
- Read all papers fully. If you do not understand or cannot read the papers, tell the officer you need an interpreter.
IF YOU ARE TAKEN INTO IMMIGRATION (OR "ICE") CUSTODY
You have the right to a lawyer, but the government does not have to provide one for you. If you do not have a lawyer, ask for a list of free or low-cost legal services.
You have the right to contact your consulate or have an officer inform the consulate of your arrest.
Tell the ICE agent you wish to remain silent. Do not discuss your immigration status with anyone but your lawyer.
Do not sign anything, such as a voluntary departure or stipulated removal, without talking to a lawyer. If you sign, you may be giving up your opportunity to try to stay in the U.S.
Remember your immigration number ("A" number) and give it to your family. It will help family members locate you.
Keep a copy of your immigration documents with someone you trust.
IF YOU FEEL YOUR RIGHTS HAVE BEEN VIOLATED
Remember: police misconduct cannot be challenged on the street.Don't physically resist officers or threaten to file a complaint.
Write down everything you remember, including officers' badge and patrol car numbers, which agency the officers were from, and any other details. Get contact information for witnesses. If you are injured, take photographs of your injuries (but seek medical attention first).
File a written complaint with the agency's internal affairs division or civilian complaint board. In most cases, you can file a complaint anonymously if you wish.
Call your local ACLU or visit www.a
Here is a complete booklet: "Know your rights"
http://www.aclu.org/files/kyr/kyr_english.pdf
DUI Checkpoints:
http://www.mcdonalddefense.com/2011/...ui-roadblocks/
Border checkpoints:
http://www.acluaz.org/sites/default/...0One-Pager.pdf
Travel Checkpoints and screenings:
http://www.americanbar.org/publicati...eckpoints.html
Well well well, after my previous posts, I figured EVERYONE would be screaming my name carrying torches and pitchforks! LOL
Before I reply, let me just say, that sure, the folks in the videos are exercising their rights and while being more freaking annoying than a 4yo asking for ice cream, I bet they only went through the DHS checkpoints once or twice. I guarantee that if you went through one of those 3 or more times per week, after a week or two, you would simply start saying "yes" or "USA". Hell, say "AMERICA, FUCK YEA!" (I know I've been tempted to say this a few times).
This almost goes right along with TSA groping. How many of you after going through the TSA security point at an airport started screaming you were being molested or crying for help when a TSA agent performed a pat down? I went through one with a knee brace and was limping, they asked if they could pat down the brace for "metal" I guess. I agreed, they simply touched the knee brace and that was it. Sure, their hands were a foot or two away from my junk and hell, their eyes were right there, but I didn't feel violated. (While yes, I'm sure there were agents who crossed the boundaries or were doing the pat downs disrespectfully, I am willing to bet the vast majority of them were not TSA agents to get to grope people).
I don't know if I have an honest answer for you. I tend to be more compliant in all cases when someone carrying a gun, a badge (though I don't know if DHS/BP agents have an official badge) and handcuffs asks me a question. Perhaps its my prerogative to answer a simple question, whether its warranted or not, than to put up a verbal fight and risk getting arrested or anything else. Not that I'm saying a DHS/BP agent COULD arrest you, its just not a chance I'd be willing to take.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBelly
Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained?Quote:
Originally Posted by sturn18
Asking that over and over no matter what question the BP agent asks you is being belligerent and frankly, quite rude. If you don't want to answer their questions, the get your facts straight and know what laws/amendments/whatever they are violating by asking you the question and interrupting your travel.
I would be interested to hear of the time limit they can hold you without probable cause. If they were flexing their rights in refusing to answer the question, they could simply just state that they refuse to answer any questions, that it is a violation of their 4th amendment rights and unless they are being detained, they will not answer anything, then just sit there quietly. I'm pretty sure they'd get pushed through faster that way than pissing off the DHS/BP agents who are simply doing their job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid
I can only speak for the area where I live, but honestly, a job as a DHS/BP agent pays very well for the area. Most people in my town (who aren't military or work at White Sands Missile Range - though quite a few of the WSMR employees live in Las Cruces) are uneducated and working at Walmart or other retail type jobs and not making a lot of money.
Now, if we are talking about DHS/BP checkpoints in Arizona, thats a different story. If I recall, they require you to show your drivers license or proof of citizenship. Or has that been overturned? Too tired right now to spend the time looking it up and I have quite a few work emails to reply to. I'll check back later for replies.
I have never been asked about guns or ammo either and I've carried my AR through while CC'ing.Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnhack
Also, when you pull up to the stations, they have tons of cameras looking at the car. Quite a few of those are, I believe, IR cameras looking for body heat signatures in the trunk or else where.
As I said in my first post, when I went through one the first time, they were asking me ridiculous questions like why was the seat belt in the back row of seats buckled. I got annoyed and irritated and started giving snippy answers. When asked "Where are you headed today?" I said, "To a job interview". When asked for clarification, I said "Sunspot" - which is an unincorporated town in the mountains that no one knows exists unless you 've been there. When asked "Where are you coming from?" I said "Colorado". I kept giving one word answers until they let go. Sure, it was annoying, but I didnt' feel like I was being detained.
The very fact that you had to stop your car to be asked unconstitutional questions is the problem. That act in and of itself doesn't constitute containment but about as close as you can get. It's kind of the same as uniformed officers pulling over EVERYONE to ask questions to see if they get anything wrong... regardless of PC. It's pure BS and going along with it because you haven't done anything wrong is giving them permission to pull this kind of crap.Quote:
Originally Posted by BuffCyclist
I opt out of scanners at the airport too. I'll be damned if I receive ANY level of radiation to make their job easier. You'll notice that the agents in this video kept saying the same thing too: make our jobs easier. I'm sorry but my duty as a free citizen of this country is NOT to make your job easier. I take that back... I'm not sorry in the least.
I now want to drive down there just to drive through and say this.Quote:
Originally Posted by BuffCyclist
The stop may not last long enough to constitute an unreasonable seizure of the person without reasonable suspicion:
Quote:
when a driver is stopped, the initial interaction with police may last only long enough to ask a few questions and determine reasonable suspicion. Reasonable suspicion may include slurred speech, an odor of alcohol, glassy or bloodshot eyes. If the officer cannot cite reasonable suspicion within that brief initial meeting, the driver should be allowed to leave.
Quote:
The Supreme Court deemed that a car stopped at a roadblock is a seizure, but, if the purpose of the roadblock is to ensure the safety of all drivers, and the interaction is brief, then the seizure is not unreasonable. Sobriety Checkpoints are not meant to identify criminal behavior and are considered a part of regulatory law, not criminal law.
From the DUI link from Def90. I do not think there is a time limit set in stone but from reading the above it sounds like they get to ask a few questions and let you move along, if you answer them or not does not matter.
ETA: And i am almost positive you do have to ask if you are being detained and if you are free to go, otherwise it is seen as voluntary.
Randomly erecting checkpoints within the USA is bullshit. Big huge steaming piles of [pileoshit]. This is stopping someone and questioning them without probable cause. It's a fishing expedition and reeks of every government this country has stood against for over 200 years. It's a military state. Yes, the military restrict movement by many means both on and off of installations. They do this through checkpoints, uniforms, and other means. We are NOT living in a military state. DUI checkpoints are typically erected in city areas around bars and have show a history of DUI's in that area and time. DING DING DING, no longer a fishing expedition. There is solid reason to suspect future criminal activity. This is like putting up a checkpoint up from 0700 to 2000 on HWY 86 between Kiowa and Limon and calling it a DUI checkpoint. I'm not at all surprised people are doing this.
I'm not at all surprised people who are dealing with this regularly are complying to avoid losing time over it.
So the US is a war zone now? Last time I checked someone getting pulled over is not the equivalent of being an enemy combatant.Quote:
Originally Posted by kc06lj
Don't get me wrong, I believe in being kind and courteous to police officers and most of the time these guys are just doing their job--I just don't like the idea of having random checkpoint everywhere, it reeks of police statism and is a clear violation of the 4th Amendment.
And these questionable DHS/BP checkpoints are located some distance from the border. Yes, I would have a much larger problem with them if they were in KS, CO or other in-land states no where near a border. NM is right next to the border. El Paso is one of the, if not the, largest drug entry port into the USA. 30 miles or whatever the number is, is not unreasonable in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by SA Friday
For the record, while sitting in line and waiting to pass through the checkpoint once, I saw a drug bust where the drug dog was going apeshit and when they popped the trunk they found two duffelbags of something. Okay, well I don't know it was a drug bust, but I assume it was because they drew down and arrested the guy right there. They opened a second lane for traffic while all of this was going down and moved traffic over slowly (as they left the guys car right there).
Somewhat quoting the guy you quoted with a CDL. I have a Class B CDL with HazMat endorsement. I had to pass through both and FBI and TSA background check to get the HazMat endorsement. When I go to the airport, I should be able to flash my DL that has the HazMat Endorsement and walk right through security. After all, its what the TSA agents get to do, so why can't I? I passed the SAME background check the TSA agents have to pass to become employed by the TSA.Quote:
Originally Posted by ImNtUrBuddyGuy
Putting the ethics/legality of these checkpoints aside, I'm curious, am I the only person posting in this thread who has actually TRAVELLED through one of these DHS/BP checkpoints?
And I haven't just travelled through it once or twice. I drove over to Las Cruces 3 times per week both Fall and Spring semesters (well, averaged about 2.5 times as work sometimes prevented me from going over there) and multiple weekends with my Fiancee. I have to pass through the checkpoint right next to White Sands National Monument coming home from Las Cruces.
Also, at least 5 times heading home from the airport in El Paso. If I had to make up a number, I would say I have gone through them at least 75 times.
The agent never answered the very pertinent question that was being asked. The citizen needed to know the answer in order to be able to either leave or exercise their 5th amendment rights. I guess that I would have to say that the agent ignoring the question that was being repeatedly asked was acting in a belligerent manner as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by BuffCyclist
True, its a question standoff. Neither person wants to answer the others' question or they'll show weakness. But the DHS/BP agent has a gun...Quote:
Originally Posted by sturn18
I've been through the drug checkpoints they set up in North and (mostly) South Carolina on several occasions while driving to visit my dad. I see no reason to stop travelers on an interstate freeway with a checkpoint for anything without specific knowledge or evidence of a crime being committed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BuffCyclist
....And a sworn duty to uphold the US Constitution. Only one person in that situation has a duty to give in and only one person in that situation relies on lack of awareness of one's rights to do his job. Seems legit.Quote:
Originally Posted by BuffCyclist
How long before DHS moves from cars (an extension of your home) to your home?
You don't have anything to hide, do you?
That is the direction this is going, DHS has 70 years of Soviet intrusion to look at and see what works best or what can be modified to work better.
Well, the TSA has already got this covered with their "See something, say something" campaign. Turns your neighbors against you and they'll rat you out if you are transporting a gun to your car. And your vehicle is not considered an extension of your home in all states. I know it is in CO and NM, but I believe I've heard there are other states where it is not because you can not carry concealed in your car without a CCL. [Dunno]Quote:
Originally Posted by roberth
In a couple of the segments it appeared that the vehicles were going through established border checkpoints. I dont have a problem with being questioned when going over any border. I do dislike random checkpoints but lets say were being invaded from a non hardened point.. However what really gets me angry is that nothing is really being done at our borders control illegal immigration or stop a potential threat from using it for access. Like this video it is freakin joke. I would like to see fences, sensors and security on our borders and also for our government to send people back who illegally enter. All these people to our Country sadly is a resource of cheap labor and potentially a huge new block of democratic voters. Secure the damm border and send the law breakers back. Reform immigration to the whole world and take the cream of the crop. Its an honor to be a American. Also did I miss something? The officers in this video were border patrol agents with arrest powers and generally pretty good officers who get their hands tied by nonsense. TSA is just a force of gropers and rejects I certainly would no cooperate with TSA on the roadways because they certainly are not law enforcement.
It is NOT an extension of your home in COQuote:
Originally Posted by BuffCyclist
Really? I thought you could conceal carry in CO in your car without a license...hmm, oh well. Either way, I have my CCL and live in NM so it doesn't apply to me but thanks for correcting that if its true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulf202
It is pretty darn close http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...zGGp4Jl6PFobTQQuote:
Originally Posted by Wulf202
That's completely true, there's a separate law allowing that. You can also carry on any property you have permission.Quote:
Originally Posted by BuffCyclist
castle doctrine doesn't apply, not even close.Quote:
Originally Posted by battle_sight_zero
Lots of people have guns, presumably we are all bound by the rules of law though. And it's not about showing weakness. If the agent had answered truthfully, that the motorist was not being detained, he knew that the guy would have just driven off.Quote:
Originally Posted by BuffCyclist
I did not quote castle doctrine. My link is from the Denver Bar Association that includes tips if you are contacted by police. Never consent to a search never. Be polite and respectful to the officer but do not consent. I feel they gave some good advice and dont see a problem with it http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...zGGp4Jl6PFobTQ
I agree with the point, always be respectful of authority but if you know your right dont bend to it.
You can carry without a CCW in Colorado, but not because your vehicle is an extension of your home.Quote:
Originally Posted by BuffCyclist
So this just about sums things up:
I was making a counter point, not a reply on yours. Your point is valid but not relevant to the derailed discussion really relevant to the OP but we're on page 2 so we should be far off tack by now.Quote:
Originally Posted by battle_sight_zero
Usually, a detention on reasonable suspicion (the so-called "Terry Stop") isn't subject to a time limit set in stone. 15 minutes was pretty easy to get, and anything beyond that had to be "reasonable" (there's that word again) in view of the totality of the circumstances.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid
Introducing an international border into the mix changes things. SCOTUS has held that actions taken in the name of border security within some distance of the border (50 miles rings a bell for me) can be permissible under the 4th Amendment, which would not be allowed to a police officer in Colorado or Nebraska or some other place without an international border. But I don't know if the time limit changes for immigration checkpoints.
The way i understand it reasonable suspicion does not fall under immigration or DUI check points. Just because it has been known to happen in an area before does not give reasonable suspicion you are drunk or an illegal alien.Quote:
Originally Posted by centrarchidae
And i did ask a lawyer friend of mine, you need to ask if you are being detained and if you are free to go because if you answer any question it could be seen as a voluntary hold on your rights. Don't the loop holes on your rights make you feel all warm and fuzzy? [Flower]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuffCyclist
You'd think it would work that way ... but that makes too much sense for the government.....
I've passed enough Secret Service checks to fill a file cabinet... I can stand next to the president.. but I can't just get on a damn airplane.
Lol I think there is a good number of folks here in similar circumstances. I'm trusted with more than 10 Billion dollars in very important government resources daily (I work with satellites) but getting on a commercial airline is still a pain in the neck... [facepalm]Quote:
Originally Posted by clublights
(Not saying I should get special treatment because of my job or clearances, I just think its a bit ironic)
^This...our "leaders" have been testing how many of our liberties we are willing to give up. They do it under the guise of public safty and most comply because its convieniant or because they are conditioned to comply.Quote:
Originally Posted by roberth
I first noticed this with when they federalised the mall cops at the airport. I make the bastards pat me down every time I fly. I also let them know that they are in violation of the 4th amendment and are tratiors to their country. I don't buy the argument that "they're just doing their job" either. Everyone has a duty to refuse unconstitutional orders. If even 10% refused to comply they'd have to stop as it would slow travel and disrupt commerce.
The sheep goes bahhhhh...
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyBadger
But you SHOULD get to skip the chat and grope the TSA puts out... I'm going to assume you've had a pretty high background check run on you to play with them kinda toys.... why shouldn't they give you a card or something that says: " hey piss off I'm a good guy"?
So should anyone else that can pass a secret or above background check. ( or whatever level they start the interviewing all your old friends and sometimes not so friends ... I had to do one for the ex wife..)
This "Pre Check" program seems to be a step in that direction...a sort of "good guy" card/status.Quote:
Originally Posted by clublights
http://www.tsa.gov/tsa-precheck/tsa-...ited-screening
Some states are offering a sort of "Good Guy" CCW endorsement that extends CCW privileges to allow CCW in courthouses, schools, polling places etc.
http://www.jacksonlewis.com/resources.php?NewsID=3972
Additional training is required, beyond that of a "standard" CCW, to obtain this endorsement status.
Sorry , in advance.. [offtopic]
Just about anyone without a history of bipolar disorder can get a Secret clearance. TS and above might be more appropriate... that's when they start doing personal interviews with all your family and relatives and anyone you've come into contact with in the past 14 years... lolQuote:
Originally Posted by clublights
So we make a 'good guy' list and then it's just one more way someone could get around the system. Bad idea. How bout we just admit the system does nothing and shit can it as a whole?
Best idea,Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer
We'll return those millions of dollars wasted to the deficit and then if only we could think of a way to to have millions of feet on the ground in and around all potential threats to be armed legally and taking responsibility for their own safety and that of those around them. If only we had a huge army worth of civilians that were willing to do such a thing in the name of liberty and freedom. Hmmm.... how would we go about this... I know! We'll introduce MORE firearm restrictions on civilians and tighter control of firearms for those who have done nothing wrong! Yeah, that's it!Quote:
Originally Posted by brokenscout
/sarcasm
Great post!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer