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Originally Posted by rocktot
it would be completely asinine for them to end the airshow.
which is why I'm worried they'll do it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocktot
it would be completely asinine for them to end the airshow.
which is why I'm worried they'll do it.
Everything is a risk these days, including the govt. with their policies. I say ban govt. altogether. Do it for the children!Quote:
Originally Posted by Elhuero
Umm, No. The f-86 was I believe at Lowry and he couldn't pull out of a loop because of density altitude, not trying to compete with F-16's at low altitude.Quote:
Originally Posted by rocktot
Every second of your day is more of a risk than an air show.
You're guessing here. And you're wrong, too. [ROFL1]Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper7
If you think a modification to put hydraulic actuators on a P-51 would be a weight-saving effort, I have some wooded beachfront property in Wyoming I'll make you a deal on.
Sure, they're modified airframes; and engines, too. And so are the props. They're RACERS, for shit's sake.
As soon as you find an Unlimited class racer that's modified to run the primary flight controls with hydraulics, send me some pictures or other empirical data. Trust me, when you find it, it's going to be turbine-powered and a whole lot bigger and heavier than a P-51, and at this time, an airplane like that isn't allowed to race in these events.
Until you do find that evidence, just plan on checking back with me when you have 36 years of airplane maintenance experience like I do (including, by the way, some time working on a Mustang).
Yes, it was at Broomfield (Jefferson County Airport at the time).Quote:
Originally Posted by rocktot
The Wyphe and I were there that day. It was an awful thing to see, even though he was down below the ridge (that the runway is on) when it happened so I don't think many actually saw it hit. Airplanes had been disappearing behind the ridge and re-appearing further West all day. We all expected this guy to do the same, but there was a large ball of fire instead. I never looked for the official accident report but I think the density altitude got him that day. It was pretty hot and he was trying to do a half Cuban-8 and just didn't have enough altitude to get out of the bottom of it. He was a retired United Airlines pilot.
Umm, No. There hasn't been any airplane operations at Lowry since the early to mid 1960s or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drilldov2.0
I went to an airshow at Lowry while I was in High School and it certaintly was not in the 60's. That is not the point however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweety Bird
You did parrot me in that density altitude was at fault. May have been at Jeffco at the time, but that too is irrelevant to the crash.
But, just for your arrogant attitude. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowry_Air_Force_Base
It's okay 30's years off is good enough for an expert.
There absolutely WAS a jet that crashed into the ground at the Broomfield airshow. You could see the scar in the earth at 104th and Wadsworth Blvd for over a year.
yes there was and it was an f 86 hmm. What's you post count? I mean point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Irving
Drilldov, I've noticed that you've been very ornery tonight.
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Originally Posted by Drilldov2.0
From the Wiki article...
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Flying activities had begun at Lowry in 1938, and through the years, many different aircraft had operated from the airfield, but by the mid-1960s airspace in the Denver area had become so crowded that in 1966 the Air Force directed Lowry to shift all of its flying activities to nearby Buckley Air National Guard Base.
Ill respond when im sober but there is plenty of combinations I put up. Especially for highly modified racers. Maintenance guys have fucked up lots of my planes and tons of my paperwork so your sign off means jack to me unless I look everything overQuote:
Originally Posted by Tweety Bird
"YOUR" planes? If you're a pilot, I hope you sober up before you strap in. And if you're a pilot who actually understands how "his" airplanes work, you'd realize how silly it is to suggest hydraulic flight controls on a Mustang.Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper7
I don't have the patience for dimwits any more.
Lowry was closed as an airfield in the 60s. That is to say, THERE WERE NO MORE AIRCRAFT ACTIVITIES CONDUCTED THERE AFTER THAT POINT. I didn't say that it was closed, only that they didn't fly from there any more. So if you went to an airshow there after the 60s, you were either dreaming or smoking something pretty good.
Next time you post a link, you might want to read ALL of it.
From the wiki article:
I couldn't care less if you work on race cars. To even suggest that someone would convert a P-51 to hydraulic flight controls borders on extreme ignorance of this subject. And to suggest "electric" flight controls is even more absurd. It's OK, if you haven't had the training, we can fix that. But please accept the fact that I'm right on this issue, and you, well, are NOT.Quote:
Flying activities had begun at Lowry in 1938, and through the years, many different aircraft had operated from the airfield, but by the mid-1960s airspace in the Denver area had become so crowded that in 1966 the Air Force directed Lowry to shift all of its flying activities to nearby Buckley Air National Guard Base.
You guys have to remember, the owners and flyers tend to get in on most of the mods and perform test run after test run. I have wrenched on the Mcdonald Racer, they went through 5 props before they found what they liked. The Unlimited class is a bit up for discussion, but they do have to be airworthy and go through inspection prior to race day. They run the bare minimums and for the most part there are 2 or more certified mechanics per team.
For the T-6 class you can only modify certain components, not all. You find primarily all standard flight controls, race engines are used with custom props and EGTs.
As for Lowery, I am much too young and not from CO to remember any of that. Good luck.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...2/_JL47932.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...2/DSCN0890.jpg
I think it will just move to another city that wants the revenue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elhuero
Btw, I have about 45 min logged in that bird. She sure is a sweet ride.
Nice! I assume that's at Centennial?
Do you remember the Stump Jumper? It was a Mustang undergoing a major overhaul/restoration after a mishap at, I think, Akron, CO. I was lucky enough to get to do a little work on it. It was nice to be able to be around it all day and at the end, just brush a little dust off my hands and go home. That was a beautiful machine, too. Don't know what happened to it but by the time they were done with the restoration, it had been sold to someone in CA, I believe.
http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/p51who/81.shtml
http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p51re...1-4463810.html
Next time you fly to the LUFSE waypoint, look to the East and wave at me.
First off, you need to drop the personal attacks or name calling. that bullshit is uncalled for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweety Bird
Yeah I am a pilot and I know more than my fair share about planes considering it is my job. My ass is the one in trouble if YOU or a mechanic fucks up, and there are plenty of them that do screw up and I have to make sure it is done correctly before I go.
As to the hydraulics, you might want to read my WHOLE post like you so adamantly require of drilldov2.0 and attacked him as well. I said it could be a combination of things, could be electric, could be hydraulic, could be a combination. or it could have been the original design. I was making the point that you just don't know what these guys do to modify the aircraft, everything for the controls, the engines, the systems, the avionics etc.
You really need to take a chill pill and not attack people. if thats the case maybe you should take some time off.
Come on guys. I know I started this but be kind. People were lost in this. I WILL kill it.........
There was new video released today of the incident with almost a direct underside view of the Mustang as it made the last turn and crashed.
The pilot never had a chance.
Link please?Quote:
Originally Posted by BPTactical
I'm on the Blackberry so I can't link it- Google, Yahoo and the major news outlets all had it yesterday.Quote:
Originally Posted by clublights
A couple of questions for the knowledgeable.
Where did the pilot go? I have seen 2 or 3 pictures of the plane after it started the final maneuvers. I can't see the pilot in any of them. Would the shoulder/lap belts hold the pilot where we could see him if the he was incapacitated? The picture posted here clearly shows his head. It does look like he is sitting lower than in a P-51.
Wouldn't you normally need nose down on the elevator to counter the amount of lift generated by the wings at that speed? The pilot would have set the trim tab to a nose down. Would the pilot be able to push the nose down if he lost the trim tab?
I wonder if he got elevator flutter, either before or after the trim tab came off. The flutter shook the stick disabling the pilot or preventing him from maintaining control or damaging the elevator control system. Flutter vibration could also account for the tailwheel dropping down.
My sympathies to all that lost people.
On fox news today (maybe Megan Kelly at noon) they were saying the accident investigators are speculating the pilot's seat came loose/got ripped loose and fell backward into the fuselage!! Yikes! Having seen how cramped a P-51 cockpit is, I don't think there is room to "scrunch down" or bend forward so you couldn't be seen through the canopy. Pretty clear if the seat went back you wouldn't reach the stick or pedals...
Singlestack
I'm a Fox News fan but it seems strange to me that some "investigator" is actually allowing speculation to get out to the media. I have no doubt that they were told this b
Edit: No idea what happened to the rest of my post. Working through a public WiFi in a hotel causes lots of strange things.
What I was trying to say is that I have no doubt that Fox was told this stuff but I DO doubt that one of the real investigators would be speculating like this to the news media.
It would be hard for me to think the pilot wasn't securely strapped into a custom-fitted seat that was attached very securely to the structure. Anything could happen, I suppose, but a seat coming loose (at least as a CAUSE of the accident) doesn't seem plausible to me.
I suspect there was a mechanical failure due to some hamfisted, inept and dumbass mechanic like me signing it off.
And holding on to the stick when it happened would pull it back, causing an intense climb and then dive...Quote:
Originally Posted by Singlestack
I though the same thing when those pictures first came out. I thought they were file pictures at first because of not seeing the pilot.Quote:
Originally Posted by SAnd
From ARFCOM:
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A couple of factors about the crash (some of you guys need to work on your aerodaynmics knowledge):
To get maximum airspeed, these airplanes are run at full-aft CG, which is inherently much less controllable than when keeping the CG in the envelope
Breaking of the trim tab would most likely result in the airplane going to full-nose-up trim. He would have had some rudder input as well for his left pattern. Incidentally, this is pretty much how you snap roll an airplane, which is what appears to have happened, unsurprisingly.
3,500 HP.....8,000+ lbs. of airplane.....full aft CG.....he would have had to be able to bench press about 350 lbs., in one second, to get the airplane under control. His age is not a factor. Even you guys who CAN bench that much probably would have failed.
As far as pictures of him 'slumped forward'...under that many G's, he'd be pasted to the back of the seat or, like Bob Hannah, the floor of the airplane. In one of the pictures you can clearly see the canopy with no visible pilot. Most likely he was unconscious.
new video
This exact mechanical failure has happened before, with a much luckier result. Read about it happening to Hurricane Bob Hannah here: Voodoo Incident
Bob Hannah was an exceptional MX racer and was in superb shape, and very nearly lost his life. He was lucky that his snap roll resulted in a vertical climb instead of a nose down into the ground.
For those who don't know what a G is, it's the equal of the force of gravity on our planet. If he was pulling 22 Gs, that means that a 200lb man would weigh over 4,000 pounds.Quote:
Found out from my brother that they found the telemetry box from the plane. He was told that the plane pulled 22.2 G's@ 500 mph, looped up and slowed to 375 and back to 500 when it hit the ground. 22 G's will kill a person fast!
If that information is accurate, his bones probably turned to jelly once that plane pitched up. They also think the G forces broke the pilot's seat, which could have collapsed down and into the back of the plane, pulling the pilot away from the controls and out of view to anyone outside the plane.
But he was most likely dead before even nosed over towards the ground.
That airframe isn't capable of staying together at 22 g's.
It's my guess that the 22 g's was recorded at the time of impact.
Thats probably true about the number of "g's" on impact.
When I worked at this one place where we shipped sensitive equipment we had these little devices that were attached to the outside of the shipping box. They were to ensure the boxes weren't mishandled or dropped.
If memory serves me right it said something about 20 g's which i thought was almost impossible to attain if the box was dropped. So, the boss handed me one of those devices and told me to give it a good flick.
I did and it popped. I was amazed that's all it took... So, I'm not surprised they are saying maybe 22 g's going in...
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Originally Posted by hip55