I was a Cruz guy from the beginning...

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Originally Posted by CavSct1983

It's simply a question of omission. If one omits to vote for trump, they empower another voter who is voting Clinton. In effect, the popular vote comes down to whomever had a scant percentage of more votes. The majority of people are nullifying the other candidate's votes. The rub for non-voters is that if you have enough of them who would have otherwise voted for candidate A, Candidate B benefits by the omission. Any vote for a 3rd party candidate is effectively a self-nullifying vote which only benefits the "winner".

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False dichotomy. Also, the definition of "win" is not universally defined and agreed to by all parties.

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Originally Posted by foxtrot

There is no surviving a Hillary presidency solely because of the Supreme Court. It will shift far left so hard and there will never be any recovery. You can kiss your firearm rights goodbye (and the cold dead hands molon labe bullshit is just that, bullshit) every single person here would be no different than the california residents. Oh, 15 round limit? Ok. 10 round limit? Ok. 5 round limit? Ok. At what point is your firearms worth more than spending time with your kids?

So.... it is paramount that people do not vote third party in critical swing states. Ignore the f'ing presidency, the executive honestly doesn't do that much.

Vote only for the Supreme Court... do you want it 6:3 conservative [Ruth is going to move to New Zealand I think! LOL], or 7:2 "progressive" [Chances are very high we will lose 2 more conservative justices in the next 8]?

The problem is, even if you get Gary Johnson elected 8 years from now (riiiiight, but lets pretend) your hillary court will have revoked every right you ever gave a damn about and Gary won't be able to do anything about it - he would get maybe 1 SCOTUS nomination in 8 years, probably of a conservative, so the court would stay 7:2 "progressive". When it comes down to it, the president doesn't have nearly the power people think they do.... the most important power they have is appointing justices.

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I agree with everything above about judges having the power and that the next President will have a giant amount of 2nd order power. (and the molan labe bullshit)

What I am also saying is that Hillary will be the next President - start accepting, and preparing for, that eventuality. If I end up being wrong - so what.

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Originally Posted by foxtrot

(and the cold dead hands molon labe bullshit is just that, bullshit) every single person here would be no different than the california residents. Oh, 15 round limit? Ok. 10 round limit? Ok. 5 round limit? Ok.

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YEP

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Originally Posted by foxtrot

There is no surviving a Hillary presidency solely because of the Supreme Court. It will shift far left so hard and there will never be any recovery. You can kiss your firearm rights goodbye (and the cold dead hands molon labe bullshit is just that, bullshit) every single person here would be no different than the california residents. Oh, 15 round limit? Ok. 10 round limit? Ok. 5 round limit? Ok. At what point is your firearms worth more than spending time with your kids?

So.... it is paramount that people do not vote third party in critical swing states. Ignore the f'ing presidency, the executive honestly doesn't do that much.

Vote only for the Supreme Court... do you want it 6:3 conservative [Ruth is going to move to New Zealand I think! LOL], or 7:2 "progressive" [Chances are very high we will lose 2 more conservative justices in the next 8]?

The problem is, even if you get Gary Johnson elected 8 years from now (riiiiight, but lets pretend) your hillary court will have revoked every right you ever gave a damn about and Gary won't be able to do anything about it - he would get maybe 1 SCOTUS nomination in 8 years, probably of a conservative, so the court would stay 7:2 "progressive". When it comes down to it, the president doesn't have nearly the power people think they do.... the most important power they have is appointing justices.

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Uh hu. Right on the button. As much as I hate Trump, there is no other option.

Popular vote...


...right...

Electoral College

Have you all forgotten that little twist? Vote your conscience, vote your heart...hell, vote twice.

Just don't vote HRC.

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Originally Posted by asmo

False dichotomy. Also, the definition of "win" is not universally defined and agreed to by all parties.

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How is it a false dichotomy? We live in a 2 party paradigm which demands pragmatism, not some ideological utopia where, "if we get enough, we can have a viable 3rd party candidate!" An assertion gratuitously made can be gratuiously denied, so at least draw out your argument.

In what way does it matter if "all parties" define win the same way? We don't live in a pure democracy (thank God) and at this point a win is more or less a loss for the other "side".

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Originally Posted by crays

Popular vote...


...right...

Electoral College

Have you all forgotten that little twist? Vote your conscience, vote your heart...hell, vote twice.

Just don't vote HRC.

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Hence, I qualified my statement with "popular vote". The electoral college is indeed a thing and if they were to vote against the popular vote, which may or may not work in the favor of Trump, it would be completely legit per the system. The question is whether or not the system is legit. I don't personally think it is.

Dr. Alan Keyes' videos from last "election" illustrate this problem (particularly the one about The Electoral Process):
https://www.youtube.com/user/keyesyt/videos

Let's be honest: the Republic is DEAD. It's a rotting, stinking corpse being crawled over with the maggots of society's gadfly population which has pushed people into accepting faggotry, at least cultural Marxism, indifferentism to anything of importance in lieu of continued entertainment, the complete lack of the rule of law and the oversight of an oligarchy, the continued repealing of previously held Constitutional rights by a revisionism of interpretation and sometimes complete lack of checks and balances (rather than a continued clarification, as is wont to be needed); at this point, the US is no more in line with the vision of its Founders than Lutheranism is in line with Martin Luther or Methodism is with Charles Wesley; the only thing we share with the past is, perhaps, a revolutionary spirit (which if history is a guide, is actually a bad thing). We got rid of a king and ended up with hundreds of kings. We gave power to the sheep to elect wolves... hard to be entirely sympathetic to the grand buffet which results.

If anything, we are at a point akin to Weekend at Bernie's, only instead of Bernie, we have the corpses of all the Founding Fathers being carried around by Paul Ryan types.

Yeah, General Washington, it's a slippery slope, so let's just go slowly down the path instead of jumping off the deck:
Attachment 66323

Or one can saunter down the path with a 3rd party candidate. Either way, the only way to go is down. I suppose, in the end, at least vote for the guy who will walk slowest.

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Originally Posted by asmo

False dichotomy. Also, the definition of "win" is not universally defined and agreed to by all parties.

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No, it's not. The Clintons downplayed the dichtomy to their success in both 1992 and 1996. Wilson played it successfully in 1912. In all three cases, the worst of two bad choices got into office because someone better (but in an unelectable situation) split the vote. What did we get from that? In Wilson's case, the League of Nations and World War I as well as leftist and racist policies. In Clinton's case, we got the AWB, 2 ultra-leftwing SCOTUS justices who shouldn't even have been sitting in the appellate court, Enron, the housing bubble, disembowelment of the military and intelligence (just the entire national security apparatus) communities, embedded politicization of the DOJ, Somalia, and the spawning of Al Qaeda (resulting in two embassy bombings and the USS Cole). As bad as Bush the Elder was, NONE of the items I've mentioned would have occurred in a Bush second term. World War I probably would still have happened but there's a chance it wouldn't have ballooned the way it did if the League of Nations hadn't set up the network of alliances or had been set up with enough teeth to put down an aggressor.

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Originally Posted by asmo

I agree with everything above about judges having the power and that the next President will have a giant amount of 2nd order power. (and the molan labe bullshit)

What I am also saying is that Hillary will be the next President - start accepting, and preparing for, that eventuality. If I end up being wrong - so what.

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Prepare, yes. Accept, no. The problem isn't with you being wrong -- that happens a lot -- the problem is the self-fulfilling prophecy that makes you right because of idiots who won't turn out to vote or who throw a possible anti-Clinton vote away by "voting their conscience." I understood why people voted their conscience in 1992 with Perot but by 1996 they should have realized just how bad Clinton was and how futile Perot's campaign was.

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Originally Posted by Ah Pook

Uh hu. Right on the button. As much as I hate Trump, there is no other option.

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Bingo. If you want to protect the Constitution, Trump gives me the willies but anything other than voting for him is basically a vote to strike out the Second Amendment -- and the First, Fourth, and Fifth for anyone who isn't solidly onboard the leftwing agenda train. Clinton's past history has shown how she misuses and abuses official powers, how she sells out the American citizenry to line her own pockets. You think the IRS and DOJ malfeasances under Obama were bad? Just wait until Hillary gets to control them.

Its interesting to see the number of people saying things along the lines of "the Republic is DEAD", who are also saying that your vote will fix things (or at least not make it worse). If the Republic is truly dead, then your vote doesn't really matter.

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Originally Posted by asmo

Its interesting to see the number of people saying things along the lines of "the Republic is DEAD", who are also saying that your vote will fix things (or at least not make it worse). If the Republic is truly dead, then your vote doesn't really matter.

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Came to post the same observation. Not a very convincing argument for how important it is to vote for a guy that no one likes and no one trusts.

Attachment 66327

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Originally Posted by asmo

Its interesting to see the number of people saying things along the lines of "the Republic is DEAD", who are also saying that your vote will fix things (or at least not make it worse). If the Republic is truly dead, then your vote doesn't really matter.

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The only value it holds for me is framing the particulars of how we decline. Keeping firearm rights and free speech (including religious freedom) are important to me. They're important to Libs too which is why they keep attacking them. What's that saying about paying attention to what your enemy does?

If you want to go into decline disarmed, with a divided US on identity politics (people that want to murder your family/you because of your skin color and laws that only protect some), absent the economic resources to take care of yours, and the gov taking over private institutions that could help (churches), then it doesn't matter.

And Trump's plan will include hardship too. The moment he disconnects the central bank(ers) from the public economy all hell will break lose. This is why Fed rates are stuck at 0% for seven years. There's even been talk of reinstating Glass-Steagall (banks currently failing stress tests would have to close unless they're given significant public funding). The trade policies (eliminate trade deficits) will cause immediate pain as well. Longer term benefits are there for all of this, sure, but a lot of temporary pain and adjustment to get there.

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Originally Posted by foxtrot

[snip]

... the cold dead hands molon labe bullshit is just that, bullshit) every single person here would be no different than the california residents.

[snip]

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The reason it has been bullshit to date is because people have yet to see what comes after disarmament and lack the historical perspective to understand why Libs push gun control. It has jack shit to do with safety.

If people see or begin to understand how the Second Amendment is the only check against Libs I think hearts and minds would change because I doubt even useful idiot Dem voters want to live in that world. Of course, the trick is making sure most don't catch on until it's too late.

Fortunately for us, the more Libs play identity politics and pick winners and losers after creating conflict (whites vs blacks, Muslims vs gays, etc...) the more transparent they become.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

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Originally Posted by asmo

Its interesting to see the number of people saying things along the lines of "the Republic is DEAD", who are also saying that your vote will fix things (or at least not make it worse). If the Republic is truly dead, then your vote doesn't really matter.

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That's true, it doesn't matter in all likelihood. Just like it doesn't matter if you do CPR on a dead person, or point an empty weapon at an attacker, or any other things which we do anyway despite not actually mattering. However, you still should attempt. If it doesn't matter, vote Trump. :) If it matters, vote Trump. :)

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Originally Posted by Fmedges

Fact. I believe the collective judges have more power than anyone in this country by far.

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It is because when the progressives fail at the ballot box, fail at the legislative level they fall back to the judiciary . It is unfortunate this branch was to uphold the constitution and protect us against the other two branches of the Gov and to uphold the laws EQUALLY. We need to understand this or the progressives will continue their drum beat towards effectively replacing the constitution without having to remove the document.

It is the ONLY reason I vote for Trump in this swing state. If I lived in a solidly red or blue state then I could protest vote all day long.

Remember even if you are turned off by the POTUS picks please vote for the down ticket. It would be our only hope if Hillary wins to hold both houses of Congress to keep her in check hopefully better than they did with Obama. Well....we can only hope.

Attachment 66334

Not perfect. But close enough.

Close enough to what?

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Originally Posted by foxtrot

The reason it's BS is because the gov't has total control over all forms of communication. Disarmament is here (California) but it isn't door to door, they will never be that stupid.

So... you going to be the next lone wolf "active shooter" resulting in them passing even more truckloads of legislation, or you just going to keep what you have quietly until you get bit with some other criminal violation and you're on the news when they collaterally find "an arsenal of two guns and three boxes of ammunition found at Skip's house".

He's the secret about you that progressives already know. You're not crazy. You, and the majority of firearm owners, are... *gasp* logical. This is a weakness as far as they are concerned.

Step 1) Maintain complete control and interception over communications.

Step 2) Use intelligence assets to "defunct" any movement that could threaten the gov't before it can go anywhere.

Step 3) Thus brings any risk down to "lone wolf" operators. You can't have any organized peaceful or non-peaceful opposition without the gov't being so far up your ass they can count the polyps. Even if you thought yourself secretive.

Step 4) Now there is 0.00% chance of any successful use of the 2A.

Fast forward, after a couple decades under the 7:2 Progressive Court created by HRC.
You, as a logical person, as each piece of incremental legislation passes, will come to realize this. At no point will police ever come at your door. There isn't a scenario where you're holding an American flag screaming "Get some bitches" as the UN surrounds your house. Legislation will pass requiring you to turn in illegal weapons and items incrementally. You probably won't do it. Parts, ammunition, etc. will dry up as the black market flourishes quite expensively but with many high level raids which make the average person apprehensive to make use of it. You will cease to discuss firearms with anyone, and cease to shoot them (including with your own family members) because of the progressives that will rabidly be waiting to report you. Once again, there is never door to door confiscation.

So, nobody comes knocking on your door. However, after a generation, when you pass, your children, or if not them, your children children, will be so indoctrinated they will willingly hand over your baby killing tools of mass destruction.

When do you stand, the lone wolf, and fight it out to the death? They aren't coming to you. So you can either be the terrorist - killing innocent people who have no actual responsibility for the underlying problem, or you can die trying to go after those that do have responsibility with no effect because their security is advanced so far it renders anything you may attempt moot (while still branding yourself a terrorist). Do you waste your life, leave your family struggling to make ends meet surviving your infamy when they limit magazines to 5 rounds? Maybe when they ban 1/2 of all semi autos? Maybe when they ban magazine fed weapons? All pistols? All semi autos? Which line is it, exactly? Because there's never going to be a "ban gunz" bill that suddenly rips your underoos off your bottom.

The "Molon Labe/Cold Dead Hands" is total bullshit, pure and simple, and always will be, in any circumstance that happen while the bolded blue portions above are true. Those that foster their vivid imaginations of a last stand are either hedonistic or don't understand how the progressive engine works.

Your enemy is not stupid.

This has already happened in California. The latest legislation requires turnover of all magazines (no grandfathering) by July 2017 without compensation. Virtually all semi autos are banned now including bullet buttons. If we have a conservative SCOTUS, it will get shot down. If Hillary becomes president, SCOTUS will shift so hard they will validate the CA law however they can, making it precidential. The language of the 2A means nothing once this happens. It doesn't matter if the 2A says the sky is blue, if the progressive SCOTUS calls it green, you have no defense and no position to argue the contrary.

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Foxtrot wins the Internets. Done. Mike drop. This should be a sticky that everyone should be forced to read and agree about before they are allowed to post on the board.

also: Apologies for adding a clarifier to Foxtrot's statement (the stuff in red above), but I felt it needed to be there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by foxtrot

The reason it's BS is because the gov't has total control over all forms of communication. Disarmament is here (California) but it isn't door to door, they will never be that stupid.

So... you going to be the next lone wolf "active shooter" resulting in them passing even more truckloads of legislation, or you just going to keep what you have quietly until you get bit with some other criminal violation and you're on the news when they collaterally find "an arsenal of two guns and three boxes of ammunition found at Skip's house".

He's the secret about you that progressives already know. You're not crazy. You, and the majority of firearm owners, are... *gasp* logical. This is a weakness as far as they are concerned.

Step 1) Maintain complete control and interception over communications.

Step 2) Use intelligence assets to "defunct" any movement that could threaten the gov't before it can go anywhere.

Step 3) Thus brings any risk down to "lone wolf" operators. You can't have any organized peaceful or non-peaceful opposition without the gov't being so far up your ass they can count the polyps. Even if you thought yourself secretive.

Step 4) Now there is 0.00% chance of any successful use of the 2A.

Fast forward, after a couple decades under the 7:2 Progressive Court created by HRC.
You, as a logical person, as each piece of incremental legislation passes, will come to realize this. At no point will police ever come at your door. There isn't a scenario where you're holding an American flag screaming "Get some bitches" as the UN surrounds your house. Legislation will pass requiring you to turn in illegal weapons and items incrementally. You probably won't do it. Parts, ammunition, etc. will dry up as the black market flourishes quite expensively but with many high level raids which make the average person apprehensive to make use of it. You will cease to discuss firearms with anyone, and cease to shoot them (including with your own family members) because of the progressives that will rabidly be waiting to report you. Once again, there is never door to door confiscation.

So, nobody comes knocking on your door. However, after a generation, when you pass, your children, or if not them, your children children, will be so indoctrinated they will willingly hand over your baby killing tools of mass destruction.

When do you stand, the lone wolf, and fight it out to the death? They aren't coming to you. So you can either be the terrorist - killing innocent people who have no actual responsibility for the underlying problem, or you can die trying to go after those that do have responsibility with no effect because their security is advanced so far it renders anything you may attempt moot (while still branding yourself a terrorist). Do you waste your life, leave your family struggling to make ends meet surviving your infamy when they limit magazines to 5 rounds? Maybe when they ban 1/2 of all semi autos? Maybe when they ban magazine fed weapons? All pistols? All semi autos? Which line is it, exactly? Because there's never going to be a "ban gunz" bill that suddenly rips your underoos off your bottom.

The "Molon Labe/Cold Dead Hands" is total bullshit, pure and simple, and always will be, in any circumstance. Those that foster their vivid imaginations of a last stand are either hedonistic or don't understand how the progressive engine works.

Your enemy is not stupid.

This has already happened in California. The latest legislation requires turnover of all magazines (no grandfathering) by July 2017 without compensation. Virtually all semi autos are banned now including bullet buttons. If we have a conservative SCOTUS, it will get shot down. If Hillary becomes president, SCOTUS will shift so hard they will validate the CA law however they can, making it precidential. The language of the 2A means nothing once this happens. It doesn't matter if the 2A says the sky is blue, if the progressive SCOTUS calls it green, you have no defense and no position to argue the contrary.

Read the 11th amendment for instance.



Pretty clear what the plain text, “human readable” meaning is:
If you are not a citizen of a given state, you can't sue that state in the US Federal Court. It’s a right to keep States from meddling in other States business, e.g. residents of CO trying to sue WY because CO residents can buy WO magazines. That is what it was intended to protect.

It took no time at all in our countries history for SCOTUS to rewrite the clear meaning of the 11th to mean (their interpretation) : You can never sue any State in the Federal Court system. (sovereign immunity) Even if you are a resident. So your state officials, agencies, employees etc. entertain absolute immunity in the federal system.

So... the eleventh amendment has been construed not to provide a right of the people, but to provide a protection to the state.
So, to, will go the way of the 2A “dodo”, quietly, after HRC gets her SCOTUS nominations.

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The theme song of the Democratic party came on my Pandora feed today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GhnV-6lqH8

Didn't Trump win the most primaries, garner the most primary votes and have the most delegates of any Republican candidate in US history? That has to mean that Trump is going garner an extremely large section of any conservative vote in the general election right? I mean you can't be the most popular Republican candidate of all time and completely shit the bed a couple months later in the election, ESPECIALLY with Hillary as the opponent...can you?

I think the MSM doesn't want a Trump presidency, so they are underreporting his actual numbers. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Trump win in a landslide come November. I think this is exactly like the Brexit deal, nobody thought there was any way that the leave side would win, and it won handily.

I dunno, I think there's an awful lot of worrying that's being done prematurely. There's still PLENTY of time for things to change, especially once Trump and Hillary start going head to head in the debates.

https://www.ar-15.co/images/tf_ideal...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by foxtrot https://www.ar-15.co/images/tf_ideal...post-right.png [snip]

... the cold dead hands molon labe bullshit is just that, bullshit) every single person here would be no different than the california residents.

[snip]

It still serves one purpose... see my sig. [Coffee]
It REALLY strikes a nerve with some of them... they get insistent that "nobody is coming after your guns".... to which the answer is "not yet, not all at once"

I probably missed it (I've been working nights and haven't been able to follow it much), but why exactly did Cruz get booed off the stage after he was invited by Trump to speak at the RNC? Was it because he said “Don’t stay home in November. Stand, and speak, and vote your conscience, vote for candidates up and down the ticket who you trust to defend our freedom and to be faithful to the Constitution.” ? If those words alone are the reason he was booed, maybe we should pause for a moment and consider which of those words we disagree with and why.

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Originally Posted by PugnacAutMortem

Didn't Trump win the most primaries, garner the most primary votes and have the most delegates of any Republican candidate in US history? That has to mean that Trump is going garner an extremely large section of any conservative vote in the general election right? I mean you can't be the most popular Republican candidate of all time and completely shit the bed a couple months later in the election, ESPECIALLY with Hillary as the opponent...can you?

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If anyone can, Trump can.

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I think the MSM doesn't want a Trump presidency, so they are underreporting his actual numbers. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Trump win in a landslide come November. I think this is exactly like the Brexit deal, nobody thought there was any way that the leave side would win, and it won handily.

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There is a theory that Trump is underpolling, as some people won't admit that they might vote for him. But Trump is way underperforming even in traditional GOP states against Hillary.

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I dunno, I think there's an awful lot of worrying that's being done prematurely. There's still PLENTY of time for things to change, especially once Trump and Hillary start going head to head in the debates.

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The worrying is because Trump has no ground game. None. Zipola. And Hillary already has an experienced, well organized campaign staff literally ten times larger than Trump's. The Clinton's know how to run campaigns and Trump has demonstrated that he does not have a clue.

Unless something dramatic happens, if it is close, Hillary is going to slaughter Trump with better ground game resulting in better turnout of her base voters. Just like Democrats did in 2008 and 2012.

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Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

I probably missed it (I've been working nights and haven't been able to follow it much), but why exactly did Cruz get booed off the stage after he was invited by Trump to speak at the RNC?

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Cruz was booed because Trump is still campaigning against Cruz instead of Hillary. Trump organized delegates to boo Cruz at the convention intentionally - he had Cruz's speech in advance. Only yesterday Trump was yet again bringing up his bizarro-land nonsense about Cruz's father and JFK. More bizarre, Trump's daughter was delivering Democrat campaign slogans to the RNC and Trump delegates were cheering her.

I'm starting to think that Trump wants to throw the election. And that Trump was trolling the GOP - signalling the con - with those speeches.

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Originally Posted by spqrzilla

Cruz was booed because Trump is still campaigning against Cruz instead of Hillary. Trump organized delegates to boo Cruz at the convention intentionally - he had Cruz's speech in advance. Only yesterday Trump was yet again bringing up his bizarro-land nonsense about Cruz's father and JFK. More bizarre, Trump's daughter was delivering Democrat campaign slogans to the RNC and Trump delegates were cheering her.

I'm starting to think that Trump wants to throw the election. And that Trump was trolling the GOP - signalling the con - with those speeches.

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Again, this is why I'm confused: Trump could have easily accepted Cruz's comments (ESPECIALLY the calls for party unity) as an implicit endorsement and focused on moving forward to victory. Instead, he wanted to make some silly junior high drama about Cruz. [Dunno]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spqrzilla

Cruz was booed because Trump is still campaigning against Cruz instead of Hillary. Trump organized delegates to boo Cruz at the convention intentionally - he had Cruz's speech in advance. Only yesterday Trump was yet again bringing up his bizarro-land nonsense about Cruz's father and JFK. More bizarre, Trump's daughter was delivering Democrat campaign slogans to the RNC and Trump delegates were cheering her.

I'm starting to think that Trump wants to throw the election. And that Trump was trolling the GOP - signalling the con - with those speeches.

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I believed that when Trump started campaigning. I still don't trust him but I trust him more than any (D) right now.

It has been a while since there was a candidate I could really get behind. Seems like for at least 3, 4, 5 elections that we have the following choice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0BuPgrBwHU