LOL Israel

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Originally Posted by Stuart

No, it's just that too many Californians are moving to Israel. 50 years ago Israel would have just boarded that ship with flame throwers, punted all the infants over board, then wiped their asses with the peace flags. I don't know what all this "discretion" is about but it is making them look like pussies and ripe for the taking by communists.

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Originally Posted by BigBear

I actually have to agree with Stu here...

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Oh, heaven help me for saying this... me too!

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Originally Posted by Stuart

As long as you know that I was aiming for sarcastic and obtuse...

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I'm not.

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Originally Posted by Stuart

At the end of the day, who do you respect more? Russia, for the things that they do? Or Israel for the things that they don't do?

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Okay, so I respect Isreal more, but not for the reasons you listed. Given the reasons you listed, I'd have to select Russia because they did what had to be done, they spun their own version of what happened, knowing that most wouldn't believe it, and they have remained steadfast and unapologetic about it.

Of course, Isreal isn't as big and strong overall as Russia is and they have enemies knocking on EVERY one of their borders without the U.S. willing to have their back anymore. Sad because I agree with them (Isreal).

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Originally Posted by HBARleatherneck

Oh and fuck the terrorists and thier friends.

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+1000

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06...oy-line-medal/

Nice. The last soldier off the chopper shot 6 of the 9 killed on board with his Glock. Now that guy is the man. That's how I expect Israel to handle these situations. Jump in, tell everyone to get down. Anyone who doesn't gets shot. Don't know why the first guys down weren't shooting yet.

The Times of London reports that at least 2 soldiers had been shot by the "peace activists" and one beaten unconscious before this guy hit the deck and opened fire. Good job. Although, some Israeli CO made a bad call sending those guys onto the deck of that ship into a mob. At least throw a handfull for Flashbangs down there to get the people to spread out a bit first.

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Originally Posted by hollohas

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06...oy-line-medal/

Nice. The last soldier off the chopper shot 6 of the 9 killed on board with his Glock. Now that guy is the man. That's how I expect Israel to handle these situations. Jump in, tell everyone to get down. Anyone who doesn't gets shot. Don't know why the first guys down weren't shooting yet.

The Times of London reports that at least 2 soldiers had been shot by the "peace activists" and one beaten unconscious before this guy hit the deck and opened fire. Good job. Although, some Israeli CO made a bad call sending those guys onto the deck of that ship into a mob. At least throw a handfull for Flashbangs down there to get the people to spread out a bit first.

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Killing people is exactly what Israel needed to NOT do. They needed to stop these ships without killing anyone for political purposes. They failed, they got baited into the trap laid for them and made their problem much worse.

This is also relevant for irony: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurti...t_of_pale.html

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Originally Posted by Hoosier

Killing people is exactly what Israel needed to NOT do. They needed to stop these ships without killing anyone for political purposes. They failed, they got baited into the trap laid for them and made their problem much worse.

This is also relevant for irony: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurti...t_of_pale.html

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Israel is surrounded by people that hate them; whether they play nice or not. Those people HATE Israel down to their bones. Even when Israel plays nice politically, they still get rockets dropped on their heads. Lose, lose. Some people hate others for nothing more than the others are different. Much like no matter what the USA does, the bad guys will want us dead. Nothing will make them happy except killing Americans. Same goes for those that hate Israel.

They had a right to board that ship and they didn’t plan on killing anyone. That’s clear because the first 14 guys that boarded the ship didn’t shoot. But when they boarded, they got beat and shot. You have to protect your men. You think it would have been better if the soldiers did not fire and they all got beat to death? If Israel wanted to shoot those people for no reason they would have done it from the chopper without risking their men down there.

That’s the great thing about Israel. They don’t give into the PC bullshit. If their people are in danger, they will bring the hammer down on those responsible. With all the people that hate them, they have to be strong to keep their country from falling apart. Israel’s response after being attacked during the Yom Kippur War shows this works. Israel was attacked and was in great danger as Egypt and Syria pushed into Israel. Israel truly believed it was their final stand. They pushed back hard and took large portions of both Egypt and Syria. Egypt was so embarrassed that it eventually lead to the Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty and the first Arab state to recognize that Israel was a legitimate country. They saved their country and created a little peace…with force. Funny how that works.

EDIT:
On a side note. The USA has much more room to play nice politically than Israel does. We don’t share boarders with people that are hell bent on killing us. If things unravel during peace talks for us, we just fly home to our country surrounded by thousands of miles of ocean. If things go south for Israel, rockets fall on their heads and people die. They have to nip things in the butt. Sure, people will use this incident as an excuse to fire more rockets into Israel, but if it wasn’t this, the bad guys would have found some other reason to kill Israelis. They always have a reason.

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Originally Posted by hollohas

Israel is surrounded by people that hate them; whether they play nice or not. Those people HATE Israel down to their bones. Even when Israel plays nice politically, they still get rockets dropped on their heads. Lose, lose. Some people hate others for nothing more than the others are different. Much like no matter what the USA does, the bad guys will want us dead. Nothing will make them happy except killing Americans. Same goes for those that hate Israel. They had a right to board that ship and they didn’t plan on killing anyone. That’s clear because the first 14 guys that boarded the ship didn’t shoot. But when they boarded, they got beat and shot. You have to protect your men. You think it would have been better if the soldiers did not fire and they all got beat to death? If Israel wanted to shoot those people for no reason they would have done it from the chopper without risking their men down there. That’s the great thing about Israel. They don’t give into the PC bullshit. If their people are in danger, they will bring the hammer down on those responsible. With all the people that hate them, they have to be strong to keep their country from falling apart. Israel’s response after being attacked during the Yom Kippur War shows this works. Israel was attacked and was in great danger as Egypt and Syria pushed into Israel. Israel truly believed it was their final stand. They pushed back hard and took large portions of both Egypt and Syria. Egypt was so embarrassed that it eventually lead to the Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty and the first Arab state to recognize that Israel was a legitimate country. They saved their country and created a little peace…with force. Funny how that works. EDIT:
On a side note. The USA has much more room to play nice politically than Israel does. We don’t share boarders with people that are hell bent on killing us. If things unravel during peace talks for us, we just fly home to our country surrounded by thousands of miles of ocean. If things go south for Israel, rockets fall on their heads and people die. They have to nip things in the butt. Sure, people will use this incident as an excuse to fire more rockets into Israel, but if it wasn’t this, the bad guys would have found some other reason to kill Israelis. They always have a reason.

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The fact that they're on occupied land surrounded by people who are unhappy about this occupation means they have to play the politics game much better than anyone else, and they're failing. They are not going to dissuade future attacks by dropping bombs or killing activists.

Out of 8600 rockets fired, a grand total of 28 Israeli's have been killed by Palestinian rockets (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palesti...acks_on_Israel). Even if Hamas agreed to stop firing rockets, they would be unable to stop the individual groups who are launching them. The disproportionate response of Israel endangers their citizens more than the qassam rockets.

Egypt continue to make nice with Israel today because it's run by a dictator who receives vast sums of money from the US. It's time we stop cutting enormous checks to both Israel and Egypt.

H.

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Originally Posted by Hoosier

The fact that they're on occupied land surrounded by people who are unhappy about this occupation means they have to play the politics game much better than anyone else, and they're failing. They are not going to dissuade future attacks by dropping bombs or killing activists.

Out of 8600 rockets fired, a grand total of 28 Israeli's have been killed by Palestinian rockets (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palesti...acks_on_Israel). Even if Hamas agreed to stop firing rockets, they would be unable to stop the individual groups who are launching them. The disproportionate response of Israel endangers their citizens more than the qassam rockets.

Egypt continue to make nice with Israel today because it's run by a dictator who receives vast sums of money from the US. It's time we stop cutting enormous checks to both Israel and Egypt.

H.

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Which is exactly why they boarded that ship. To make sure weapons weren't coming in. They were attacked and they defended themselves.

Just because those rockets didn't kill many doesn't mean they couldn't. You really mean to tell me that they shouldn't respond because only 28 people died? 8600 rockets fell inside their country!

No matter how nice they play those people, who you call activists will still hate Israelis simply because they are Israeli. All the other BS is just excuses to kill them. Do you really think fewer rockets would fall if they didn’t shoot on that boat? Do you think the people that hate Israel would start getting along with them if they didn’t shoot on that boat? I bet they would have just sat at home while talking to their buddies and said “Boy, Israel really showed some restraint when 15 of their soldier were beat to death and they didn’t fire back. Maybe we should give them a break.” Sure they would…

Bottom line…Those soldiers were fighting for the men next to them when they were getting beat and shot by people you call "activists". Anyone who thinks that soldiers should just stand by when their buddies get killed is just spineless.

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Originally Posted by hollohas

Do you think the people that hate Israel would start getting along with them if they didn’t shoot on that boat?

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No. But can you turn your logic around, and ask this, "Do you think Israel gained more enemies who will seek to attack them because they killed these 9 people"

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Originally Posted by hollohas

Bottom line…Those soldiers were fighting for the men next to them when they were getting beat and shot by people you call "activists". Anyone who thinks that soldiers should just stand by when their buddies get killed is just spineless.

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My debate isn't about the soldiers. It's about the commanders who sent their guys to fast rope into a mob. It's about the incredibly stupid way Israel decided to handle this situation. They knew in advance there were no weapons on the ships, there were plenty of videos of them being loaded. $10 says Mossad had it's own sleepers on those boats. This flotilla was a ruse by other countries to get Israel to do something stupid, which is what it did. If Israel had let the ships land, it would have gotten minimal press. The Israeli blockade of Palestine would have kept out of the international spotlight.

The conflict between Israel and Palestine isn't one that will be won with guns. They IDF can roll over Gaza every day of the week, and each time they kill an innocent father of 12, they get six new age 6 to 18 sons sworn to get vengeance against the infidels. There are no easy solutions for the Knesset, and where they could be working with Fatah in the West Bank to show the Gazans that life after cooperating with Israel gets better, they continue to build settlements in the outskirts of Jerusalem.

Israels many wars and constant fighting has put it in the mindset of "do anything and everything to protect our citizens" without giving sufficient regard to the long term consequences. It has turned it's arab citizens (Israeli's of Arab decent) into second class citizens. For the Gazans it is literally an apartheid state. If Israel gives full voting rights to the non-Jewish residents, they will be in the minority in a generation or less. So in order to maintain a "Jewish State" they're going to have to make some ugly choices.


H.

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Originally Posted by hollohas

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06...oy-line-medal/

Nice. The last soldier off the chopper shot 6 of the 9 killed on board with his Glock. Now that guy is the man. That's how I expect Israel to handle these situations. Jump in, tell everyone to get down. Anyone who doesn't gets shot. Don't know why the first guys down weren't shooting yet.

The Times of London reports that at least 2 soldiers had been shot by the "peace activists" and one beaten unconscious before this guy hit the deck and opened fire. Good job. Although, some Israeli CO made a bad call sending those guys onto the deck of that ship into a mob. At least throw a handfull for Flashbangs down there to get the people to spread out a bit first.

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I read that article and it calls the IDF commando's "Navy Seals". I followed the link to the full article which mentions "Navy Seals" twice.... Hmmm... Nothing like throwing out the term "Navy Seal" to get attention for your article.

Moving along now, I do wonder why they didn't drop a flash bang or at least some tear gas to break up the crowd before they dropped in. One article I read said the IDF only had paint ball gun which can be seen in one video clip, don't know what they were loaded with.

I noticed that it said 'Navy Seal' also.

Probably this unit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shayetet_13