Person very familiar with NFA items

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08-30-2012, 11:13
O2HeN2

Quote:

Originally Posted by coloccw

You cannot purchase the short upper(s) until a Form 1 has been sent in and the firearm registered. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nati...art-possession

Wrong again. I'm not sure which Q&A you were pointing to specifically but I don't see anything that supports your statement.

In addition, your statement is refuted by the Thompson Center Contender Carbine decision that (once fought in court), came to the conclusion that just possessing the parts to make an SBR is not illegal unless there's no way to assemble the parts in a legal configuration (my step 0, above). So you could legally possess the rifle stock, a pistol stock, a carbine (long) barrel and a pistol barrel quite legally.

So using the Contender as an example, you can possess the parts to make a SBR (rifle stock and pistol barrel) but because you also have the rifle barrel you can configure the Contender in as a legal rifle so you're OK. Just don't sell the rifle barrel!

What the court case pivoted on was the ATF claim that if you had the parts to make an SBR you were in possession of an SBR. What the TC lawyer successfully argued is that if the ATF position was to stand, possession of a rifle and a hacksaw would be possession of an SBR.

And lastly of course, if you can't possess the short upper until your form 1 clears, how are you supposed to measure it in order to fill out the form 1 in the first place?

O2
08-30-2012, 11:22
O2HeN2

Quote:

Originally Posted by coloccw

ATF agents don't know enough about NFA. That is why I call NFA branch directly.

Now this I agree with!

O2
08-30-2012, 11:23
275RLTW

Quote:

Originally Posted by O2HeN2

No, an SBR is an SBR. You can put a barrel of any length on an SBR, longer or shorter than what's on the form 1. As you stated, if you permanently change the configuration as written on the form 1 (read: you sell the original parts and don't have other parts to assemble to the same dimensions/caliber) you submit paperwork to amend the form 1.

Here's the typical process for SBRing an AR15 lower. We'll start with step 0:

0: Make sure you have "long" uppers for each and every "normal" lower you own. The "normal" lower you're going to SBR will be a "normal" lower until you get the Form 1 back from the ATF. For example. Lets say I own 3 ARs and I'm going to make one an SBR. I should possess 3 or more "long" uppers before I get a "short" upper (and you don't mount the short upper until you get your form 1 back). Basically you want to possess the parts such that you can put everything together in legal configurations. If you have 3 normal lowers, 2 long uppers and 1 short upper, you can't assemble everything in a legal configuration, and you can get nabbed for "constructive intent" -- that's not exactly the right term, but I forget what the correct legal term is at the moment. Just always make sure that the number of long uppers in your possession is greater than or equal to the number of normal lowers in your possession. Last example, if you have 2 normal lowers, 2 long uppers, 1 SBR and 453 short uppers you're fine, because you have enough long uppers that can be legally assembled with the normal lowers.

No. You can have as many lowers as you want and no not need to have a "long" upper for each one.

1: Make sure the lower is something that you want to make into an SBR. Don't just SBR a brand-new stripped receiver in case there's some defect (screwed up holes, etc.). Assemble it, make sure it runs and you're happy with it.

2: Engrave it. This way if the engraver screws up, you don't have a crappy looking re-do on your SBR.

You have to wait until the Form 1 is approved BEFORE engraving the lower. Adding your name/city on the lower is considered one of the final steps in the mfg. of the NFA item. Basically, you cannot serialize something until you mfg it and you cannot build it until you obtain approval from NFA via Form 1 & tax stamp.

3: Get your SBR upper (see step 0).

4: Determine barrel length. I always like to measure. Put a bolt in the upper, drop a dowel down the bore and measure it to the muzzle.

5: Determine overall length. Here you have an issue -- you can't assemble it to determine the overall length, but you can measure the lower from the the buttstock (extended) to the hinge pin, and the upper from the hinge pin hole to the muzzle and do some addition.

6: Fill out the form 1, cough up $200 and wait for six months.

Do this BEFORE purchasing the short upper unless you have a pistol lower in posession, per NFA guidelines mentioned in link (earlier post).

O2
08-30-2012, 11:30
275RLTW
Quote:
Originally Posted by O2HeN2

Wrong again. I'm not sure which Q&A you were pointing to specifically but I don't see anything that supports your statement.

"A FFL (Type-7 or Type-10) who pays the Special Occupational Tax (SOT) may possess parts required to assemble NFA firearms. A non-licensee or FFL who has not paid the SOT is required to register any NFA firearm via an ATF Form 1 (5320.1) prior to acquisition of the parts required to assemble such firearm."

Untill a ruling and publication are released, the previous rulings are in effect.

In addition, your statement is refuted by the Thompson Center Contender Carbine decision that (once fought in court), came to the conclusion that just posessing the parts to make an SBR is not illegal unless there's no way to assemble the parts in a legal configuration (my step 0, above). So you could legally posess the rifle stock, a pistol stock, a carbine (long) barrel and a pistol barrel quite legally.

So using the Contender as an example, you can posess the parts to make a SBR (rifle stock and pistol barrel) but because you also have the rifle barrel you can configure the Contender in as a legal rifle so you're OK. Just don't sell the rifle barrel!

What the court case pivoted on was the ATF claim that if you had the parts to make an SBR you were in possession of an SBR. What the TC lawyer successfully argued is that if the ATF position was to stand, possession of a rifle and a hacksaw would be possession of an SBR.

And lastly of course, if you can't posess the short upper until your form 1 clears, how are you supposed to measure it in order to fill out the form 1 in the first place?

OAL of a 14.5" - the difference in barrel lengths....(+/- any variances made to the stock as well)

Buttstock Closed - 29.75 inches
Buttstock Open - 33.00 inches

(from FM 3.22-9)

O2
08-30-2012, 11:33
O2HeN2

Quote:

Originally Posted by coloccw

You have to wait until the Form 1 is approved BEFORE engraving the lower. Adding your name/city on the lower is considered one of the final steps in the mfg. of the NFA item. Basically, you cannot serialize something until you mfg it and you cannot build it until you obtain approval from NFA via Form 1 & tax stamp.

My gawd man, just where are you getting your information? You can engrave ANYTHING on your lower -- zombies, cute sayings, anything, it's just decoration. Your name/trust/corporation, city and state is just that - decoration until you use it to make (note "make" not "manufacture" - important distinction - and another mistake on your part) it into an SBR and enter the "Additional description" in line 4h on the form 1. Note it's not a serial number -- it's an "additional description". What you're stating IS true if you manufacture a firearm -- which you aren't doing.

O2
08-30-2012, 11:40
275RLTW

Quote:

Originally Posted by O2HeN2

My gawd man, just where are you getting your information?

From NFA

You can engrave ANYTHING on your lower -- zombies, cute sayings, anything, it's just decoration. Your name/trust/corporation, city and state is just that - decoration until you use it to make (note "make" not "manufacture" another mistake on your part) it into an SBR and enter the "Additional description" in line 4h on the form 1.

From Form 1, page 3 (you have to read the WHOLE thing)

i. Make. The term "make", and the various derivatives of such word, shall include manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such business under the NFA) , putting together, altering, any combination of these, or otherwise producing a firearm.

O2
08-30-2012, 12:08
275RLTW

Just spoke with NFA.

Per Sheri (did not get last name):
-Any permanent change in SBR length (longer or shorter) then you must notify NFA in writing and wait for approval (approx 30 days).
-Temporary changes: did not know

Per Janice Fields:
-for temp change: no need to notify NFA for any temp change in barrel length, either shorter or longer.

I had old info before on the longer to shorter berrels, my fault. Now, there is current info right from NFA.
08-30-2012, 13:05
Circuits

Quote:

Originally Posted by coloccw

You have to wait until the Form 1 is approved BEFORE engraving the lower. Adding your name/city on the lower is considered one of the final steps in the mfg. of the NFA item. Basically, you cannot serialize something until you mfg it and you cannot build it until you obtain approval from NFA via Form 1 & tax stamp.

Also no, I'm afraid. Most people re-use the existing serial when converting from a Title 1 to a Title 2 firearm, anyway, so it'll usually already be on there.

You can engrave any damn thing you want on your firearm - as mentioned above. Ponies, skulls, bible verses, your underwear tag information, scrolls and wreaths or even random numbers. Only thing you cannot do is obscure or remove the required original manufacturer's markings which are already present.

If you choose to engrave all of your "manufacturer's" information before the application is approved all you do is risk having to go make a correction if they made you change your trust name or city/state abbreviation verbage or something to that effect.

The law does require that you get that engraving done before you go attaching the short barrel to that lower, in the situation presented by the original poster in this thread, but it does not require you to wait until the application has been approved before you do the engraving.
08-30-2012, 14:06
275RLTW

Quote:

Originally Posted by Circuits

Also no, I'm afraid. Most people re-use the existing serial when converting from a Title 1 to a Title 2 firearm, anyway, so it'll usually already be on there.

You can engrave any damn thing you want on your firearm - as mentioned above. Ponies, skulls, bible verses, your underwear tag information, scrolls and wreaths or even random numbers. Only thing you cannot do is obscure or remove the required original manufacturer's markings which are already present.

If you choose to engrave all of your "manufacturer's" information before the application is approved all you do is risk having to go make a correction if they made you change your trust name or city/state abbreviation verbage or something to that effect.

The law does require that you get that engraving done before you go attaching the short barrel to that lower, in the situation presented by the original poster in this thread, but it does not require you to wait until the application has been approved before you do the engraving.

Ahem...you are incorrect, I'm afraid.

Just spoke with Ken Mason @ NFA.

-DO NOT engrave your name/trust/corp and city until AFTER receiving your approved Form 1 and tax stamp and berore you assemble the firearm.

You can engrave you lower with unicorns and Miley Cyrus lyrics all you want but leave off the new mfg info until AFTER you're approved and BEFORE you put the rifle together. Again, straight from the examiners at NFA.

Any others???
08-30-2012, 14:22
Circuits

Quote:

Originally Posted by coloccw

Ahem...you are incorrect, I'm afraid.

Just spoke with Ken Mason @ NFA.

-DO NOT engrave your name/trust/corp and city until AFTER receiving your approved Form 1 and tax stamp and berore you assemble the firearm.

You can engrave you lower with unicorns and Miley Cyrus lyrics all you want but leave off the new mfg info until AFTER you're approved and BEFORE you put the rifle together. Again, straight from the examiners at NFA.

Any others???

Yeah. I'm gonna go engrave my new lower right now. What's Ken Mason gonna do about it? How's he gonna know when I engraved it? Riddle me that, sir.

I'm sure that NFA branch "advises" you not to engrave it until after you get your Form 1 back - but there's no law requiring it, and nothing they can or would do about it if you engrave it earlier.

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