NFA Cleo rules change

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10-11-2013, 10:31
10mm-man

NFA Cleo rules change

As some are aware there is a possible rules change coming. I have posted this link: http://blog.princelaw.com/2013/09/01...g-information/ which has some information and form letters to be sent to your reps and cleo. Please don't move this to NFA as it impacts us all, now or in the future.

National Firearms Act Day of Reckoning Information

As our viewers are aware, Firearm Industry Consulting Group (FICG), a division of Prince Law Offices, P.C., has declared Tuesday, September 3, 2013, as National Firearms Act (NFA) Day of Reckoning in in response to the recent proposal by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) to implement Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) signatures for fictitious entity applicants, as well as, instituting a Responsible Person (RP) definition applicable to the different roles within those fictitious entities.
In effort to assist the NFA community, FICG has prepared several sample letters to be submitted to your State and Federal Representatives, as well as a sample letter for Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs) to submit to the US Small Business Administration. While you may believe this is strictly a federal issue, since it involves the National Firearms Act, as amended, the reality is that, if passed, this will result in a massive impact on state CLEOs, which will now have to reviewmultiple applications for making or transferring an NFA firearm, as each RP of the fictitious entity will be required to obtain his/her CLEO’s signature. Therefore, all state legislatures must be informed and aware of the impact on their state from this proposed rule.
10-11-2013, 11:03
merl

The question is, Is the 90 day review process real? Is the decision already made and feedback as useful as the presidential petitions?
10-11-2013, 11:18
asmo

Quote:

Originally Posted by merl

The question is, Is the 90 day review process real? Is the decision already made and feedback as useful as the presidential petitions?

The ATF doesn't listen and will move forward on this no matter what, especially with their new Director. However, having opposition to the change registered and counted makes the process to get it fixed much much easier.
10-11-2013, 11:46
merl

Quote:

Originally Posted by asmo

The ATF doesn't listen and will move forward on this no matter what, especially with their new Director. However, having opposition to the change registered and counted makes the process to get it fixed much much easier.

Not if fixing it requires getting through the house, senate and a signature. I see the only 'use' being a group of people in DC with a pool going for how many of each style of feedback.
10-11-2013, 13:08
cfortune

Living in Adam's county, this is bad news for me. I just committed to buying a can on a trust in hope of getting my application in before any changes. Crossing my fingers that they don't make people re-submit.
10-11-2013, 20:57
ANADRILL

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfortune

Living in Adam's county, this is bad news for me. I just committed to buying a can on a trust in hope of getting my application in before any changes. Crossing my fingers that they don't make people re-submit.

Same here... fucking sucks...
10-11-2013, 21:51
spyder

WTF did I just try to read? Someone help me out here and explain it me in simple terms. I might be a little tipsy at the moment, or drunk depending onmyour definition or whatever... anyway, someone....... it"s going to be harder to do shit soon but why?
10-11-2013, 22:13
cfortune

Quote:

Originally Posted by spyder

WTF did I just try to read? Someone help me out here and explain it me in simple terms. I might be a little tipsy at the moment, or drunk depending onmyour definition or whatever... anyway, someone....... it"s going to be harder to do shit soon but why?

From my own research, a group of NFA enthusiasts created a petition on Oblowme's "change.org" or whatever trying to get rid of the CLEO sign off. Well, the petition grabbed the attention of that ass clown and he gave an order to have the rules changed so corporations and trusts now need CLEO signoff in exchange for changing the wording of the CLEO signoff form. The new wording would make it so CLEOs wouldn't feel like they're liable for mis-use of an NFA item they gave the go-ahead for. The problem with this is that liability isn't the real reason a lot of CLEOs won't sign, it's because they don't support our rights. Nothing has changed yet as far as I'm aware and there will be a 90 day open comment period prior to any change being made.

For people like me, who live in a county where the CLEO won't sign off, a trust or a corporation will no longer be a viable option.

I did however read elsewhere that the ATF will also accept sign off from other officials, such as the DA. Which, I'm not sure I've heard of anyone trying this, may give some hope.
10-11-2013, 22:20
Steps

That is ridiculous.

All of us in Adams County are going to have a hard time according to my interpretation. Grrr
10-11-2013, 22:36
10mm-man

Quote:

Originally Posted by spyder

WTF did I just try to read? Someone help me out here and explain it me in simple terms. I might be a little tipsy at the moment, or drunk depending onmyour definition or whatever... anyway, someone....... it"s going to be harder to do shit soon but why?

Basically corporations and trust will need the CLEO sign off, as well as fingerprints and picture of responsible party. From what I understand everything required for individual will also apply to trust/corporations.
10-11-2013, 22:37
Irving

Good example of Unintended Consequences.
10-11-2013, 23:51
th3w01f

Does anyone know what happens if this goes through and they make us resubmit? If the CLEO won’t sign off will the $200 be refunded and can you sell to someone in a free state and have the dealer holding the item handle the transfer (for a fee of course)?
10-12-2013, 00:24
Squeeze

If this law goes into effect, It should be a mandatory requirement for the Sheriff to have to sign off on the Form 4. They shouldn't be able to deny you. State law says it's legal for a law-abiding citizen to own NFA items. The Sheriff should be required to oblidge that law.
10-12-2013, 08:27
merl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeeze

If this law goes into effect, It should be a mandatory requirement for the Sheriff to have to sign off on the Form 4. They shouldn't be able to deny you. State law says it's legal for a law-abiding citizen to own NFA items. The Sheriff should be required to oblidge that law.

The initial submission that had these unintended consequences completely removed the sign off requirement in exchange for every trust member submitting prints. It seems that compromise means the same thing to the ATF as in the Senate.

I see many a lawsuit appearing after this change goes through about rights being denied due to no signature. Wait 5-10 years and the courts may well make it required.
10-12-2013, 08:32
hatidua

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irving

Good example of Unintended Consequences.

-oh so similar to what the open-carry clowns achieved in CA...
10-12-2013, 19:40
Squeeze

Quote:

Originally Posted by merl

The initial submission that had these unintended consequences completely removed the sign off requirement in exchange for every trust member submitting prints. It seems that compromise means the same thing to the ATF as in the Senate.

I see many a lawsuit appearing after this change goes through about rights being denied due to no signature. Wait 5-10 years and the courts may well make it required.

I see what you're saying. 5-10 years is a long time to deal with that BS. I know my POS Sheriff won't sign off on ATF Forms so the trust is the only way I will be able to get into the NFA game.
10-12-2013, 22:09
asmo

Go search my other posts on this topic and US Silencer Association for a background on where this all came from.

EDIT: now that I am on a real computer I can search and put this here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by asmo

The fingerprints/BCG for Trust members has been an ongoing discussion between the ATF and the American Silencer Association, and it was first getting press coverage last year (we had a thread on it before the crash).

The tit-for-tat is that in exchange for not requiring LEO sign-off for NFA toys, that trust/corp members would be subject to background checks. The rationale was that people were making trusts/corps to get around LEO sign-off -- so take away the LEO sign-off requirement and there is 'no reason' to have a Trust anymore.
10-13-2013, 11:09
Circuits

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeeze

I see what you're saying. 5-10 years is a long time to deal with that BS. I know my POS Sheriff won't sign off on ATF Forms so the trust is the only way I will be able to get into the NFA game.

No, you can always get an address in a friendly county and submit your paperwork from there. Later, instate moves don't require approval to keep/retain them at your main residence.
10-13-2013, 13:01
SideShow Bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Circuits

No, you can always get an address in a friendly county and submit your paperwork from there. Later, instate moves don't require approval to keep/retain them at your main residence.

Yeah, sure.........Not ! Most of us here do not have the resources to establish a trust, let alone establishing an address in an NFA friendly county.......
10-13-2013, 19:00
Circuits

Quote:

Originally Posted by SideShow Bob

Yeah, sure.........Not ! Most of us here do not have the resources to establish a trust, let alone establishing an address in an NFA friendly county.......

So you can't afford a mailboxes, etc PO Box, or have a buddy who'd let you get mail at his place? Go make more friends! :)
10-13-2013, 19:16
merl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Circuits

So you can't afford a mailboxes, etc PO Box, or have a buddy who'd let you get mail at his place? Go make more friends! :)

I would not expect a PO box or mail at a friend to work.

from instructions for form 4:

Quote:

e. Law Enforcement Certification. Item 17 must be completed for an
individual transferee, unless the transferee is licensed as a manufacturer,
importer, or dealer under the GCA and is a special (occupational)taxpayer
under the NFA at the time of the submission of the application for transfer.
The chief law enforcement officer is considered to be the Chief of Police for
the transferee's city or town of residence; the Sheriff for the transferee's
county of residence; the Head of the State Police for the transferee's State of
residence; a State or local district attorney or prosecutor having jurisdiction
inthe transferee's area of residence; or another person whose certification is
acceptable to the Director, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and
Explosives. If someone has specific delegated authority to sign on behalf of
the Chief of Police, Sheriff, etc., this fact must be noted by printing the
Chief's, Sheriff's, or other authorized official's name and title, followed by the
word "by" and the full signature and title of the delegated person. The
certificate must be dated no more than one year prior to the date of receipt of
the application

Your residence is going to be where you are registered to vote (where your mail ballot is delivered). It is the address on your drivers license and where your car is registered. These are things the state doesn't like you screwing with and I doubt the ATF would appreciate it either.

The good thing is there are more options than just the sheriff.
10-13-2013, 21:43
10mm-man

Quote:

Originally Posted by merl

The good thing is there are more options than just the sheriff.

There is now, but...... You know the whole point of this post.
10-14-2013, 10:02
Circuits

Quote:

Originally Posted by merl

I would not expect a PO box or mail at a friend to work.
Your residence is going to be where you are registered to vote (where your mail ballot is delivered). It is the address on your drivers license and where your car is registered.

This part is simply not true. Your residence is where you state it to be and it is legal to have multiple residences, be they in different counties or different states or different countries. You may only vote from one of your residences, however, if a particular election encompasses one or more of your residences.

The only one of those addresses which must point to a physical address would be the location where your vehicle is garaged for insurance purposes, and that doesn't have to be your residence, either.

PO Box by itself probably wouldn't cut it, but getting a buddy to let you crash at his place occasionally and receive some mail there certainly would.

And yes, there are other options besides the sheriff.
10-14-2013, 20:10
hatidua

Quote:

Originally Posted by Circuits

Your residence is where you state it to be and it is legal to have multiple residences, be they in different counties or different states or different countries.

It's legal to have multiple residences. However, for many purposes, only one is deemed the "primary legal residence" (be it voting, taxation, employment, drivers license, etc). I'd need to see a letter on BATFE letterhead to make me think that I could just conveniently claim a place of residence for NFA approval reasons when it was otherwise not my primary residence.

All that said, A) I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, B) I'm not a lawyer, and C) Boulder County CLEO will sign off on NFA items so this doesn't materially affect me.