build parties and pushing the button on a CNC machine are out
http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fil...unsmithing.pdf
build parties and pushing the button on a CNC machine are out
http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fil...unsmithing.pdf
Common Sense says it violated the law. Not defending the law, but the interpretation was really a no-brainer.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkCO
"Held further, a business (including an association or society) may not avoid the manufacturing license, marking, and recordkeeping requirements of the GCA by allowing persons to perform manufacturing processes on blanks or incomplete firearms (including frames or receivers) using machinery, tools, or equipment under its dominion and control where that business controls access to, and use of, such machinery, tools, or equipment."
Another decree by the ATF to decide what you do with your private property in a non-commercial setting. I can agree if you are a business, association or society that is charging for access to the tools, one could argue you are a commercial enterprise. But to make illegal a group of friends/enthusiasts getting together to have a build party? I see nothing in this ruling that exempts private individuals gathering together to share knowledge and tools. So if I allow a friend to come over and use my tools so he can finish a receiver am I breaking the law since I controlled access to, and use of, said tools?
Of course this ruling, for now, will only be used selectively in a few high profile cases to strike fear into and force compliance from the masses. They won't go after private build parties just yet. However as possession of firearms becomes more criminalized in the coming decades, this ruling will be used to imprison many so called illicit arms manufacturers and traffickers.
There is nothing common sense about this. I can see what's coming next - possessing tools designed to manufacture firearms by a non-FFL will be deemed illegal under some future re-interpretation of the GCA. Welcome to Amerika.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mutt
No you will not, IF you do the work, then yes. They have to be in control of the tools used when mfg the receiver. An AK flat, they use the press to bend and spot weld rails.
On an AR they use the mill, drill press, etc to finish the lower.
One more reason i'm finishing my Form 1 stuff now.
OK, so I just read the document. From what I gather, if I was to purchase that little CNC machine that will finish a 80% lower receiver, I can use it to make a finished receiver for myself without any issues. However, if I rent or loan that machine to someone to take home to their own garage, I am in violation of the law. And if me and a couple of friends go in together to buy this little machine, we become some sort of entity and cannot make finished receivers for our own use. Did I interpret that correctly?
You and only you can use said machine to make a lower 100% from an 80%. A "Friend" cannot sit there cranking out lowers for any & everyone, just them self. Who you give anything to that does not require a notification to ANY LE agency is none of anyone's business.Quote:
Originally Posted by wctriumph
FWIW: I'd not form ANY entity that may or may not do something that falls in to the gray, OR Red, area.
Are you sure? It seems pretty clear to me:Quote:
Originally Posted by Great-Kazoo
"A business (including an association or society) may not avoid the manufacturing license, marking, and recordkeeping requirements under the GCA simply by allowing individuals to initiate or manipulate a CNC machine, or to use machinery, tools, or equipment under its dominion or control to perform manufacturing processes on blanks, unfinished frames or receivers, or incomplete weapons. In these cases, the business controls access to, and use of, its machinery, tools, and equipment. Following manufacture, the business “distributes” a firearm when it returns or otherwise disposes a finished frame or receiver, or complete weapon to its customer. Such individuals or entities are, therefore, “engaged in the business” of manufacturing firearms even though unlicensed individuals may have assisted them in the manufacturing process."
Seems to me the ATF is saying just the act of providing facilities and tools means you assisted in the manufacturing process. If not the case why release this new ruling? People have been engaging in such activity since the GCA was passed. For the last 40+ years this activity was seen as lawful. Now all of a sudden it isn't?
I am the first to admit I am not a lawyer. So if I am reading this wrong please educate me.
RE: Mutts post.... it mentions Business (association or society) John or Jane Doe letting someone use their personal equipment, for a one off item. i don't see an issue. Posting HEY WERE HAVING AN 80% LOWER BUILD. yeah that's an issue.
Do notice it references numerous times BUSINESS. IMO (just that, my Opinion) This was done, Conveniently as Number 1 of 2015 since Business' Like Ares was selling 80% lowers in room A then allowing people to push a button in Room B of their Business. There is / was that place who ADVERTISED ON AL? and elsewhere Use of their Business to complete their 80% which was purchased on the same site as the completed loewers were being done. Pay me $$ , go across the hall and push Button B for your very own 100% lower.
But what is the ATF's definition of an association or society? It is not beyond reason that they would consider 2 people an association if it suits them. Even if you don't publicize your party, you're still potentially breaking the law, at least as the ATF sees it.
"As defined by section 921(a)(21)(A), the term “engaged in the business” means, as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, “a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.”"
The way I read the above definition of "engaged in the business", in the context of the document, allowing a friend to borrow your jig and router, without charging them to do so, is legal. I'm not a lawyer so I may be way off.
Except this ruling specifically calls out unlicensed machine shops, associations and societies. These entities are not engaged in the business of building and distributing firearms. Now it seems the ATF does consider them in the business of building firearms if they offer their facilities and tools to individuals seeking to build/finish receivers. The conveniently vague associations and societies definition could be applied to anyone. It was already illegal for FFLs to build unregistered firearms. There was no need for this ruling unless they intend to make it illegal for private individuals as well. Just my opinion of course.
The way I read it was they are "engaged in the business" if they charge a fee for offering their facilities. They define that term in the document for a reason, IMO.
I'm interpreting this as: "Rent my jig or bring beer to use it" as being illegal...
My thoughts exactly, I'll take iced tea though(unsweetened) [Coffee]Quote:
Originally Posted by 00tec
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00tec
Which is why there are no more build parties.Quote:
Originally Posted by zteknik
Makes me not want to swap out parts for anybody else for that matter. I can see them counting that as some kind of manufacturing in one form or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Great-Kazoo
Another chip of the boulder of freedom. Sooner or later all we'll have is dust the way they keep at it..
Here is a legal way around this particular issue. Though there is a lot of trust and good will required, a person could buy this
http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/ghos...me-never-easy/
and then sell it, when done, to the next member, lets say for $100 or $50 off. Eventually it will have been paid for to a more reasonable cost for most. Lets say $300, which it would easily resell for. Then it is just a matter of buying it for a short time with an understanding to pass it on to the next for the same price. This goes along with a military practice of selling a used car to the guy rotating in to a duty station from the guys rotating out. It becomes a 'base car' that everyone enjoys. The only issue comes with maintenance and/or a 'dickhead' getting in the loop and ruining it all. Not a perfect answer....... But an answer.
Though pushing this, probably a bit too far (I don't know for sure), you 'should' be able to have a party were everybody buys and sells the CNC machine in one night so a build party is possible. Technically nobody can stop any of us from buying and selling a thing. There is no limit or requirement for how long. I have every right to buy something for a short period and to expect to then resell it. One day we could see the "Forum CNC" up on the Trading section????
IIRC the mfg of this item may or may not be tied in with the Ares crew.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hound