Something that bugs me...

I look around on firearms ads both here and at Colorado gun market, and something that I see a lot of is: bring a Colorado ID, or the seller won't sell. What's the deal with this? I've got a Colorado DL, and have lived here for four years or so, but it bothers me. As a private seller, you are not required to have proof of a person's state of residence. That is only required by an FFL. It is perfectly legal for me to go buy a handgun in Wyoming from a private seller. It is perfectly legal for a Wyomingite to come to Colorado and buy a handgun from a private seller.
What's the deal?

"It is perfectly legal for me to go buy a handgun in Wyoming from a private seller. It is perfectly legal for a Wyomingite to come to Colorado and buy a handgun from a private seller."

This is incorrect.

Yeah, you can't buy handguns in other states from private sellers, or gun dealers for that matter, and bring them home across state lines. Federal law. Rifles and shotguns, yes. Handguns, no.

And believe it or not, there's folks that would buy guns and re-sell them to criminal types or across the border. Selling good-ol'-boy to good-ol'-boy is fine, but it never hurts to make an attempt to verify the other party really is a good-ol'-boy from the same state.

§ 922 Unlawful acts.
(a) It shall be unlawful—...
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;...

The long gun exception for interstate sales isn't included for sales between individuals the way I read it.

I stand corrected. I've been stupid for a few years now. I've not bought anything out of state or sold out of state, but I would have probably.

Thanks!

The post that SAnd made pretty well covers this issue.

I ask for a DL if I don't know you or if much like you, you have an extremely low post count. I as the seller have an obligation to have a reasonable understanding that you are legal to own a firearm and or are old enough to purchase what ever I'm selling.

So out of the folks I've met here, I've only ever asked 2 I think for their ID. Wasn't anything bad, just didn't meet my self imposed criteria for a reasonable sale.

Don't like my simple requirement, that makes me wonder.. I'm not asking to write down your info or have a bill of sale, then again if you're less than willing to simply show me your ID so I can see a DOB and residency, then I won't sell to you.

Not sure I understand why showing your ID bugs you... again, if you don't like the terms of the sale and aren't able to negotiate them to a mutual liking, then don't buy the item.

Pretty simple yeah? ... crazy how that works!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Claemore

I look around on firearms ads both here and at Colorado gun market, and something that I see a lot of is: bring a Colorado ID, or the seller won't sell.
What's the deal?

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2 sites asking for an ID should have been your first hint that maybe that's just the way it is ????

I also won't cultivate that "paperwork" in a private sale is the norm. I'm not a criminal, nor will I register with another private citizen to purchase a firearm from them.

I firmly believe the seller has an obligation to at least make an attempt to be certain that the buyer is of legal age and is a resident of the same State as the seller. That's just playing it safe and if you gain the drivers license number and record it, you can at least show that you have checked the buyers age and address. We as individuals (Non-FFL) have no practical/quick means of checking the background of the potential buyer so I guess we can only ask him/her if they have any criminal record or anything to prevent the transfer....Of course they'll say that they are A-OK. Just my worthless opinion though....

I guarantee you this: If you were to conduct a private FTF sale and say the party you sold to was a "Prohibited Person" or otherwise unlawful to possess a firearm and something goes south afterward- you are going to have to explain rather uncomfortably to any number of various "parties" why you did not take "Reasonable Means" to confirm the purchaser was lawful to possess and purchase said firearm.
You could be found guilty of not taking "Reasonable Means" to ensure that the party you sold was not a "Prohibited Person".
That could make you directly liable for any malfeasance the purchaser committed with the firearm they purchased from you.

If you are not willing to:
A- Provide a valid CO ID.
B- Affirm that you are not a "Prohibited Person" as defined by BATF.
C- Not willing to accept a Bill of Sale.
You give me reasonable cause to suspect that you are not lawfully entitled to possess a firearm.
You will be walking away empty handed.

FWIW - in all the FTF purchases I've made, I can't recall anyone ever actually asking to see my ID, regardless of whether they stated so in their ad or not. And I've bought several guns from members here.

Oh wait, the Winchester Trapper I bought came from an FBI agent, and I believe he DID ask to see my DL. I think. Also did a bill of sale.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BPTactical

I guarantee you this: If you were to conduct a private FTF sale and say the party you sold to was a "Prohibited Person" or otherwise unlawful to possess a firearm and something goes south afterward- you are going to have to explain rather uncomfortably to any number of various "parties" why you did not take "Reasonable Means" to confirm the purchaser was lawful to possess and purchase said firearm.
You could be found guilty of not taking "Reasonable Means" to ensure that the party you sold was not a "Prohibited Person".
That could make you directly liable for any malfeasance the purchaser committed with the firearm they purchased from you.

If you are not willing to:
A- Provide a valid CO ID.
B- Affirm that you are not a "Prohibited Person" as defined by BATF.
C- Not willing to accept a Bill of Sale.
You give me reasonable cause to suspect that you are not lawfully entitled to possess a firearm.
You will be walking away empty handed.

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A. Why? I don't have to, it's not the law nor should it be.
B. I'm not willing to make an uneccessary paper trail so YOU feel comfortable. I have to feel comfortable first and foremost. That means not giving out information to people I don't know just to purchase a sporting good.
C. No, I'm not willing to accept or sign a bill of sale. I don't have to, nor do I want to cultivate that line of thinking. It sets a precedent that makes us less free as men and citizens who are protected by the 2nd Amendment.

If you give me reasonable doubt to believe you or your sale item are suspect, YOU will walk away without my cash. It's that simple. Also, if I wanted paperwork on a gun, I'd just buy it from a dealer. A private sale FTF with a simple" are you legal to own a firearm in Colorado" is suffecient, if you must.

well I guess we know who isnt owning a can or an SBR

:D

Seriously, every buyer has their own requirements.
Typically its stated in the sales advert beforehand, if you like it, go with it. if not, Don't! Ive passed on Sales wanting a papertrail.. you can too. If you have a question about it, calmly send him/her a polite PM asking if they are willing to forgo the BoS.


its not unreasonable to ask for an I.D. That's a seller covering his ass against a sting. "yes, I attempted to insure the buyer was a resident and of legal age to posses.".... Tada!
most people don't remember addresses 30 minutes afterward anyways.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jumpstart

A. Why? I don't have to, it's not the law nor should it be.
B. I'm not willing to make an uneccessary paper trail so YOU feel comfortable. I have to feel comfortable first and foremost. That means not giving out information to people I don't know just to purchase a sporting good.
C. No, I'm not willing to accept or sign a bill of sale. I don't have to, nor do I want to cultivate that line of thinking. It sets a precedent that makes us less free as men and citizens who are protected by the 2nd Amendment.

If you give me reasonable doubt to believe you or your sale item are suspect, YOU will walk away without my cash. It's that simple. Also, if I wanted paperwork on a gun, I'd just buy it from a dealer. A private sale FTF with a simple" are you legal to own a firearm in Colorado" is suffecient, if you must.

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A- If that is what the seller asks for, that is his choice.
B- I understand your point but we are not selling ice skates and hockey sticks either. We are transferring a firearm and there are certain legalities and morals involved.
C- Whether you accept a bill of sale or not is your choice.

I have worked the retail end of this business and have seen what happens if a firearm is traced back to a seller.
You had best have your shit together.
We have to face the facts, we live in a very litigious society where nobody is willing to accept the consiquences of their own actions. Everything is somebody elses fault and they will do whatever they can to place blame on another.
When I sell/trade a firearm I want to see an ID. You will affirm that you are lawfully entitled to own a firearm in writing and a Bill of Sale will be drafted.
Whether you want one for your records is irrelevant to me. It is not for your benefit. For all I care you can make a paper airplane out of it and sail it out the window.
I keep records of aquisition and disposal of every firearm I have owned with whom it was transferred to and a date and time documented.
It just makes good sense if an incident were ever to occur with an item I transferred.
If I am ever asked what happened to item X I have taken a reasonable means to minimize my culpability legally. That is what a prosecutor looks at along with a judge and jury.
"Did the defendant take a reasonable means/care to ensure that the transfer was done lawfully"
I know that if I am ever called into court and asked that question my attorney can answer yes with documentation to substantiate it.
Ignorance is not defensible.

As far as the Second Admendment it will mean nothing if you are found guilty of an unlawful transfer.
I highly doubt that a defense of "It's my Second Admendment right" will hold much water as a defense in an unlawful transfer case.
Like it or not that is the world we are in.

What you want in a FTF sale is your business.
What I want in a FTF sale is mine.
If we dont agree then no sale, right?

Our freedoms in action!

Speaking of freedoms and rights- if you dont take steps to protect yours they will be taken away.........

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BPTactical

"Did the defendant take a reasonable means/care to ensure that the transfer was done
lawfully"

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Just wondering, what do YOU consider to be a lawfull FTF private sale?

Lawfully, for a FTF private sale, the only requirement is that you do not knowingly sell to a prohibited person.

Quote from the BATF FAQ page......

Quote:

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(B16) What record-keeping procedures should be followed when two private individuals want to engage in a firearms transaction?

When a transaction takes place between private (unlicensed) persons who reside in the same State, the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not require any record keeping. A private person may sell a firearm to another private individual in his or her State of residence and, similarly, a private individual may buy a firearm from another private person who resides in the same State. It is not necessary under Federal law for a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) to assist in the sale or transfer when the buyer and seller are "same-State" residents. Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA. See 18 U.S. C. §§ 922(g) and (n). However, as stated above, there are no GCA-required records to be completed by either party to the transfer.

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A seller making up his/her own rules, for a FTF sale is one thing, and their prerogative.
But "implying" that it is the LAW, is quite another.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jumpstart

A. Why? I don't have to, it's not the law nor should it be.
B. I'm not willing to make an uneccessary paper trail so YOU feel comfortable. I have to feel comfortable first and foremost. That means not giving out information to people I don't know just to purchase a sporting good.
C. No, I'm not willing to accept or sign a bill of sale. I don't have to, nor do I want to cultivate that line of thinking. It sets a precedent that makes us less free as men and citizens who are protected by the 2nd Amendment.

If you give me reasonable doubt to believe you or your sale item are suspect, YOU will walk away without my cash. It's that simple. Also, if I wanted paperwork on a gun, I'd just buy it from a dealer. A private sale FTF with a simple" are you legal to own a firearm in Colorado" is suffecient, if you must.

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Thank you Jumpstart. Because BPtactical is a dealer, they feel that we should be held to the same standards. That's bullshit. If I did sell to someone that shouldn't have a gun, and the feds or anyone else came by asking, they can talk to my lawyer. And I'm quite sure we can prove that I did everything that was necessary.

"I have worked the retail end of this business and have seen what happens if a firearm is traced back to a seller.
You had best have your shit together."

Again, I don't have to have a paper trail, I don't have to have documentation, I don't have to have anything. Because I am not a "retail seller"!

Just do a search for "Bill of* Sale" on here and read the 3 page thread that's already been gone over more than once.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StagLefty

2 sites asking for an ID should have been your first hint that maybe that's just the way it is ????

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I think that this is insulting. A. Not everyone on either of these sites say in their posts that a DL is required. B. A lot of people will follow a bandwagon, or are fearful of the government and try to be too helpful to the government tough guys. As an ex-cop, I know this to be true. How many people do you think, in the hundred or so stops I made said no to a vehicle search? I'll tell you, NONE. Following your logic, if I found a couple of websites where the majority of the posters said they were vampires, I should assume that vampires exist.????

I admitted to ignorance of that law. It was a while ago that I read, or was told the statutes, and obviously I read it wrong, or the person I heard it from told me wrong. I merely continued to believe what I already thought to be true. I don't need you to get on here and attempt to be offensive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stuart

Just do a search for "Bill of* Sale" on here and read the 3 page thread that's already been gone over more than once.

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I was asking about Driver's Licenses, not Bills of Sale.

as someone said it already - "If you don't like the sellers requests - don't buy it."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Claemore

I was asking about Driver's Licenses, not Bills of Sale.

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Understood, but in the thread that Stuart was pointing you to we had a lively running debate over the use of BoS, ID's etc.

It's really a good thread to read through to see how others on this site think and what to expect of people you may wish to do business with in the future.

In the site rules, under the Trading Post section, item a. For Sale / Trade / Wanted, rule iv states "iv. Be honest and accurate." It has always been my belief that this, in part, means that any individual with an item for sale or trade is responsble for stating any sale terms up front in the OP, specifically if a BoS is desired. This will allow those who don't wish to agree to those terms to move along without further delay and there should be no reason for anyone to have ruffled feathers.

On the other hand, if I were asked to simply show (no information recording) my CO DL at the time of sale and this wasn't identified up front, I wouldn't have any heartburn providing it for viewing. I would, however, inform the seller that it would be wise to identify that requirement up front to avoid possible issues in later deals.

You were already corrected long ago about the driver's license issue. Now you are getting worked up over BoS and running your mouth about things you don't know anything about. BPTactical is NOT a dealer to the best of my knowledge. If you want to have a teenage girl attitude while you bitch about something, but can't handle any commentary, then stick to an online diary with the rest of the middle school girls. This is a discussion forum. Don't ask questions if you don't want input. The only person so far to have been insulting in this thread so far is you. Take your attitude some where else. We've heard it all before and no one is looking forward to taking attitude from some jerk who is mad about something that he had wrong from the beginning.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stuart

Just do a search for "Bill of* Sale" on here and read the 3 page thread that's already been gone over more than once.

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Agreed Stu but I would like to clarify a couple of points.

Pickenup-
Perhaps my comment was vague or misunderstood. "Knowingly" is more accurate of a term.
I am well aware that a transfer between private parties carries no legal obligation for documentation and or record keeping. I was speaking directly from the standpoint of the seller showing due diligence to acertain that the prospective buyer does not fall under the "Prohibited Persons" category.
Hence the written affirmation that they do not fall into that category on a Bill of Sale.
CYA.


Claemore- With all due respect- If you do not like the answers you get maybe you should not ask the question.
I am not a retail dealer of firearms. I have worked in the retail end of firearms though. I have my FFL for Gunsmithing purposes only and conduct no transfers.
On the rare occasions where I have done some horse trading it is a firearm from my personal collection and although it is recommended for a FFL holder to keep a record of personal firearms it is not required.
I do out of choice for CYA purposes.
From your original post:

Quote:

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I look around on firearms ads both here and at Colorado gun market, and something that I see a lot of is: bring a Colorado ID, or the seller won't sell. What's the deal with this?

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You asked the question and I simply provided you with some reasons why a seller may be wise to require ID, affirm they are not selling to a "Prohibited Person" and a Bill of Sale.
Again-CYA

Quote:

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Because BPtactical is a dealer, they feel that we should be held to the same standards. That's bullshit.

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At no point in time did I ever elude to this and your statement is baseless.
What you do is of no concern to me.
You are fully entitled to conduct your transactions your way how you see fit.
You are also entitled to deal with the potential risks involved where you have no documentation to substantiate your aquisition and or disposal of a firearm.

You made the statement that you are ignorant of some of the regulations.
Most all of us here are happy to help educate you with them if you are a willing student.
Or you are welcome to read the Federal Regulations here: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/industry/
[Beer]


I saw you mention "Ex Cop" in an earlier post.
Is this Dan Maes?
[ROFL3]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BPTactical

Agreed Stu but I would like to clarify a couple of points.

Pickenup-
Perhaps my comment was vague or misunderstood. "Knowingly" is more accurate of a term.
I am well aware that a transfer between private parties carries no legal obligation for documentation and or record keeping. I was speaking directly from the standpoint of the seller showing due diligence to acertain that the prospective buyer does not fall under the "Prohibited Persons" category.
Hence the written affirmation that they do not fall into that category on a Bill of Sale.
CYA.


Claemore- With all due respect- If you do not like the answers you get maybe you should not ask the question.
I am not a retail dealer of firearms. I have worked in the retail end of firearms though. I have my FFL for Gunsmithing purposes only and conduct no transfers.
On the rare occasions where I have done some horse trading it is a firearm from my personal collection and although it is recommended for a FFL holder to keep a record of personal firearms it is not required.
I do out of choice for CYA purposes.
From your original post:


You asked the question and I simply provided you with some reasons why a seller may be wise to require ID, affirm they are not selling to a "Prohibited Person" and a Bill of Sale.
Again-CYA


At no point in time did I ever elude to this and your statement is baseless.
What you do is of no concern to me.
You are fully entitled to conduct your transactions your way how you see fit.
You are also entitled to deal with the potential risks involved where you have no documentation to substantiate your aquisition and or disposal of a firearm.

You made the statement that you are ignorant of some of the regulations.
Most all of us here are happy to help educate you with them if you are a willing student.
Or you are welcome to read the Federal Regulations here: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/industry/
[Beer]


I saw you mention "Ex Cop" in an earlier post.
Is this Dan Maes?
[ROFL3]

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I have to COMPLETELY agree with BPTactical on this.
everone has their varying degrees of CYOA, but Honestly, if I ask you for a state ID to cover my ass on Residency and age laws and you Balk at it.

HUGE RED FLAG

I wont sell you a slingshot... and maybe you are wanted and have a bounty on you somewhere so let's ask the Local PD.
[PoPo]

Fuck, Most people are required to show a State ID/DL when Paying for a Dinner on a CC over $50.

Kind of a shame this thread spun out in to folks having a need to throw jabs. Lord knows I get my feathers ruffled from time to time and pop off out of frustration... BUT

Can we step this back down a few notches or just kill the thread?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Claemore

I think that this is insulting. A. Not everyone on either of these sites say in their posts that a DL is required. B. A lot of people will follow a bandwagon, or are fearful of the government and try to be too helpful to the government tough guys. As an ex-cop, I know this to be true. How many people do you think, in the hundred or so stops I made said no to a vehicle search? I'll tell you, NONE. Following your logic, if I found a couple of websites where the majority of the posters said they were vampires, I should assume that vampires exist.????

I admitted to ignorance of that law. It was a while ago that I read, or was told the statutes, and obviously I read it wrong, or the person I heard it from told me wrong. I merely continued to believe what I already thought to be true. I don't need you to get on here and attempt to be offensive.

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Then how do you know if the person that's buying your firearm is
1)a resident
2)of legal age
without asking for a DL ?
insulting ? pretty thin skinned [Coffee]

I have no problem asking for or showing my Colorado lD to verify that I (or the buyer) am a resident.

BOSs on the other hand I avoid as I believe it's not a CYA necessity. If a seller wants one then I just move on, just like I'd do if a seller overprices an item because it's a FTF sale.

No big deal in any way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StagLefty

Then how do you know if the person that's buying your firearm is
1)a resident
2)of legal age
without asking for a DL ?
[Coffee]

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Pretty well says it all! Seller with the ID requirement is just making a serious attempt to cover his ass in the event "something" happens later on with the firearm he has just sold. Anyone feeling uncomfortable with showing an ID to prove residency and age just should not proceed with the buy. The residency/age issue is a FEDERAL thing. I also fail to see why the fear of having a bill of sale made for the transfer/transaction. That paper certainly would never be seen by anyone else unless the firearm is involved in some illegal activity and traced back to the seller. If I SOLD a firearm and completed a bill of sale, why would I EVER let anyone see the damn thing unless ordered to by the court system. It's not like a Form 4473 that HAS to be eventually turned over to the BATFE when the FFL let's his license expire and/or discontinues his business.

+1 for Stuart!

I agree with BPTactical's thought process wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, in our current society, one must protect thy arse in everything you do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OneGuy67

+1 for Stuart!

Unfortunately, in our current society, one must protect thy arse in everything you do.

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I can agree here. That means to me the non-cultivation of the thought that papertrails in private transactions are needed, as the norm, on firearms, when it is not required by law.
I think we need to start covering our collective arses instead of just our individual arses. Know what I mean?

Curious, has anybody made a FTF sale and the item been used in a crime later and had the paper trail lead back to them?


My own take on ID and BOS, I will show DL and CCW permit but will not allow info to be recorded and am not interested in BOS. Will ask if of age and resident and non-felon, if questionable ask to see ID, if I get "bad" vibes about person then no transaction anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stuart

You were already corrected long ago about the driver's license issue. Now you are getting worked up over BoS and running your mouth about things you don't know anything about. BPTactical is NOT a dealer to the best of my knowledge. If you want to have a teenage girl attitude while you bitch about something, but can't handle any commentary, then stick to an online diary with the rest of the middle school girls. This is a discussion forum. Don't ask questions if you don't want input. The only person so far to have been insulting in this thread so far is you. Take your attitude some where else. We've heard it all before and no one is looking forward to taking attitude from some jerk who is mad about something that he had wrong from the beginning.

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Sounds like you have the attitude, bitch. You wanna keep talking like that to me we can meet, I'll show you the little girl.

Haha. Exactly what I expected.

Lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Claemore

Sounds like you have the attitude, bitch. You wanna keep talking like that to me we can meet, I'll show you the little girl.

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I Guess I wont need to see your ID to deny you. Someone who's worked up over an online conversation most likely won't understand that guns are for defensive uses! Calm down!

Stu is our in house troll btw.. [ROFL1]

I apologize to the others involved in this thread, that I may have offended. I thought BPTactical was a retail seller due to his comment on being in retail. Plus the name, it sounds like a store. I apologize for that leap.

Personally, I don't have a problem with showing my id, other than I had thought before that it wasn't required by law to verify my state of residence.
I was corrected, and didn't have a problem with that. Ultimately I believe the seller can do what he wants, and can sell to who he wants. I just don't believe in government interference. Especially on our right to bear arms.

I don't believe a private seller can be held responsible for selling anything LEGAL to own to anybody. If anyone can come up with an incidence where a private seller has been held responsible for any kind of gun violence that a buyer has committed, I'd like to hear about it. I'm not doing any research on that, I got other things to do.

If a soldier came to buy a gun from me, and all he had was his military id, I'm not going to deny him the purchase. And about not knowing whether the buyer was old enough, etc, I was asking about out of state licenses, not no licenses or id at all.

Welcome... and once you met Stuart... you'd like him. Or so I heard. I personally haven't met him - heck I dont even know what he's doing here without owning an AR. [Tooth][Tooth][Tooth]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MB888

I Guess I wont need to see your ID to deny you. Someone who's worked up over an online conversation most likely won't understand that guns are for defensive uses! Calm down!

Stu is our in house troll btw.. [ROFL1]

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Troll or not he's still a bitch.