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There will never be a reason for the police to have machine guns and bombs. Why we have let our police get to this is beyond me. I agree with you that people need to speak up and more importantly elected officials and public servants need to answer for their transgressions.
Personally, I'm offended when I hear a police officer refer to anyone other than himself as a "civilian" . That officer may or may have not ever offered him/herself up as a Geneva Convention category I (combatant). Policing is a CIVIL action and should certainly remain so.
Dog lovers need not watch.
If the person is a Peace officer and he refers to other people as civilians it is ok with me being that they must swear a oath to the constitution. LEO rent a cops with guns. Now there are good ones out there but by far the bad ones seam to run the joint.
Can anybody figure out how to embed that video? I used to be able to just post the link and it would do it by itself. Now I can't get it figured out.
No Knocks should be an extremely rare exception.
Not the rule.
80,000 a year!?
Byte Stryke;
How'd ya do that?
youtube]pV7u91A3KGQ[/youtube
you close the code with [ and a ]
The drug war is as epic a failure as is every war against nouns "terror, drugs, whatever" If you can't point at it, you cannot wage effective war against it. We've been duped into granting ever increasing powers to government. The piper is here to collect his fee.
when I see something like this, it makes me feel bad for the good guys trying to serve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elhuero
I agree, and its sad that the little cogs do not have control of the direction in which the machine is moving.
That's a damn good quote sir. I completely agree. To many friends of mine are stuck on forces where they feel they are losing their occupation to tyranny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byte Stryke
There is a difference between bad cops and bad policies.
Policies, both official and unofficial, that the police follow are the result of political pressure. Those in charge make the rules and the police follow them. That is why different states and cities often have very different methods of policing.
They have been doing songs about this for decades, like since the 60's . You damn kids today..Quote:
Originally Posted by bryjcom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKJziJGrASo
I was there
Look What's happening in the streets. Got a Revolution
Thank you, I thought of the same song when I saw the first post. I had tickets to the soiled dove last year but he never showed up.[Rant1]Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
and he never will . Gil died 2-3 weeks ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrymrc
I know. Was a sad day. I was going to report it here when it happened but thought most would go WHO??? I saw him in 95-96 when he came through for the spirits tour.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
I have 5-6 of the albums and a couple of the CD's First heard of him in 71 or so. [Coffee]
If I was in Law enforcement, movies like this, in threads like this would scare the hell out of me. As the Right moves more right and the Left stays very left. Law enforcement is running out of friends every time things like this happen. This is doubly bad when the budget is what it is. When the axe starts to drop and the LE budget comes up, there isn't gonna be anyone in their corner but Big Brother types and LEOs, not a very big voting block. I personally would rather put a leash on the SWAT teams than loose my pension.
Honestly, you watch a movie like this, then decide, how do we fix government spending, and truth be told LE budgets may make the list all the sudden.
Sad state for the guys on the ground, it would make for a hell of a place to work. "No one likes me because of speeding tickets and no one trusts me because of the mall ninjas on the force" That's not fun. Especially when you work in public service. I sure a firefighter/EMT/teacher has never had a thought like that.
Makes me wish we could do government agency interventions, "we like you guys, you do good stuff, but honestly, this SWAT shit is out of control. Fix it and it will help you."
That is exactly how I feel. There is no general hatred of cops in my heart. I know they perform a very important service, but like you said, this SWAT stuff is out of control.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint45
I Completely concur.
Until Both the Spoken and unspoken policies are realigned to protect and defend the United States Constitution and the people, I will disgree with them, I will Vote against them and their proponents, I will speak out against them and all of those that would support them.
I Tire of all of the Gangs, to include the ones in Blue Uniforms.
and I Fucking swear to God, if I hear one more time "Well we found Guns!" regarding a search warrant...
[Rant1][Rant2][Mad][Bang]
If you are swayed by the mis-information in a liberal singer's song, then I'm glad you don't have any control on the purse string's in any government entity. Did you even listen to the words? "Victimless Crime"...really? Are illegal drugs and their use a victimless crime? Tell that to the tons of people who have had their identity's stolen, have had their homes burglarized, cars stolen, etc. to feed the drug habit of some deadbeats. Are they not victims? Don't they deserve some "justice"?Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMat
No knock search warrants for marijuana? Ain't happening. The KGB equals the DEA and you will disappear to Guatanamo Bay. Yeah...that's were we put all our people arrested for selling/using drugs. Man, Cuba must be just PACKED with our unwanted people!!
Big Mat, I am a cop and I can see this 'song' for what it is. Garbage.
I just got back from spending a few weeks in Haiti with the U.S. Army. Because of the military, I've been able to visit a bunch of countries who do not share our ideas about civil liberties and freedoms and I've seen first hand things I know would not happen here in this country. I witnessed first hand armed gangs walking the ghettos of Port-Au-Prince with rifles and only the U.N. Soldiers (from Argentina, currently) being the only opposing force. The Haitian police are afraid and undergunned to handle the problems (.38 revolvers on their hips). I've witnessed their form of criminal justice when a civilian killed a person with his vehicle and the suspect was sentenced and hung within hours of the accident. I've witnessed the extreme poverty there and the lack of government intervention to aid their countrymen. There is ONE paved road in Haiti. ONE! It goes from Port-Au-Prince all the way up the coastline and was paid for by the French. Sickening. Saddening.
I and my team were in a small hospital in St. Marc where we witnessed 2-4 deaths a night from Cholera, T.B. and end stage HIV/AIDS, not to mention the horrific injuries occuring due to their modes of transportation. The hospital does not 'waste' drugs on people dying; they allow them to expire. There is no hospice. The family members are required to care for their family members in the hospital; bed sheet changing, feeding, bed pan changing, etc. The family members sleep next to the beds in the crowded rooms or outside on benches or the ground. The money for this hospital did not come from the Haitian government; it came from the U.S., specifically from Bill Clinton's non-profit foundation.
You think our system of government is bad and getting worse, get involved. If you think you are being tyranized, go visit another country like Haiti, Jordan, Syria, Panama, Iraq, Kuwait (these are the latest countries I've had the pleasure of visiting thanks to Uncle Sam), Indonesia, Equador, Honduras, Brazil, etc., etc., and have a reminder of exactly HOW DAMN GOOD YOU HAVE IT HERE IN THE U.S.!!!
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/z..._6483468_n.jpg
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/z...z/DSCF0195.jpg
I Seriously get sick of the "Look how bad it is over there." Argument.
That's there, this is here. Their fathers and grandfathers didn't bleed on battlefields liberating this country and others.
Their forefathers didn't set a set of rules into place to defend their rights and liberties.
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."""
A No-Knock at any address for anything short of a PRESENT hostage Life-Death situation is unreasonable.
the argument of "possibly armed" and Maybe dangerous is a load of shit and nothing but an excuse to further the ass-raping of the constitution.
Use common sense, too many people are dying and no one is held accountable in the name of "no knock warrants."
you want to compare here to there?
No more anchor babies
caught 2nd time as an illegal, execution in public.
eye for an eye, life for a life
Aldultery is punishable by public stoning
no welfare. work or die.
Thieves lose arms. Liars lose tongue.
All natural minerals and resources are property of the original inhabitants/Natives.
Ive been on every continent on the planet.
Here isnt the same as there for a reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneGuy67
Solid rant, now breathe deep, count to ten and we can continue. To begin, thank you for serving, its appreciated, really.
I am going to do my best to keep above the line and stay polite, if you want an online debate, that's my rule, otherwise, this is a waste of our time and we can just go all caps-locked right now. as a preface- I respect cops and value their service. I love the US, and I don't stand for that to be doubted, my views may differ from yours, that in no way makes me less American or unappreciative of the blessings I was born into.
first- just because America is better than some fly bitten shit hole doesn't mean it doesn't stand for improvement. Are you married? If so go over to your wife, say "I have more money than a hobo. I'm done working cause I'm rich enough." If not, imagine it. See how far that ball flies. The argument is illogical. I don't care about Haiti for the sake of this discussion. They don't have the US Constitution, that's their deal, I do.
To begin with, I disagree with no knock raids for the most part for a simple reason. Back in the fire house we had a line "risk nothing for nothing, everything for everything." What it meant, if a house is burning, no one goes in, water it from the outside, BUT if someone is in it, life is at risk, and in you go, and you pull them out, risk life to save LIFE. A knock raid for drugs, evidence, warrants or what have you is just a waste of resouces and a dangerous game. There is no reason to cite cases as you have google to and I am sure you can find plenty of "wrong address" "innocent shot" "cop shot" situations due to raids gone wrong. I am not a cop, but I don't see why turning the water/power off, and waiting for the turd to come out or grabbing them on their way to their car/bike/bus/job, is less effective as a search method, and then, no one gets shot. If there is a hostage situation, active shooter, etc. go on in with my blessing.
Next- I have a proposition, one reason the US is better than those shit holes you mentioned is the rule of law. Lets play a thought game. From now on, there is a new law enforcement agency, federal level, no other LE ties. Their only role is to track, arrest and prosecute LEOs that broke laws, any of them, on the job or not. No more internal affairs. This agency can bust down cops doors with a warrent, the can tackle cops in the steets, on the job even and take them in. They can give cops speeding tickets or bust them for abusing their code lights. Their role is to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law, regardless of the cops status as cops. They can fine them or lock them up. How would that sit with you? Remember, rule of law. If a SWAT team in Arizona, and their CO were suddenly facing a 1st degree murder rap for a raid gone wrong, do you really think the raids would continue? I have a feeling if the RULE OF LAW was applied, we wouldn't see raids anymore. Catch is, in the above paragraph, you can change the word "cop" out with "civilian" and its how it is now for the rest of us. I realize this line of reasoning may entail extra risk, I say that with this thought. My captain said to me once about working in a risky line of work "We don't get paid for what we do, we get paid for what we might have to do." For me that meant flying down the road and maybe running into a burning building/car, for a cop, this may mean drawing a weapon only when 100% sure you need it.
Finally, even if it is rare, and this stuff almost never happens, LEO abuse makes the news, and a raid gone wrong makes national news. If I ran a LE organization I would be really wary. I may not directly control the purse strings, but me and my 250 million friends sure do. Image matters, and it gets or costs votes, and votes are dollars.
Great quote. Now remember, the Constitution was created as a limit to the intusion of the FEDERAL government upon the citizenry. Last time I checked, all those cops you rant about aren't under the employ of the feds...Quote:
Originally Posted by Byte Stryke
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneGuy67
Last I checked States have to obey the bill of rights. Remember that they are not allowed, anymore, to infringe on our god given rights.
Unless you want to advocate for the ability of states to infringe on our right to bear arms, then I would reconsider your thoughts on the above post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneGuy67
...
I almost don't want to say it-
What did your department take an oath to? A McDonalds Menu?
Maybe yours didn't and I'm wrong and this can be explored further, but really, that's your argument? The Constitution doesn't apply to us. The slippery slope you just posed is, amazing.
Gun laws and the Constitution, here in Colorado, in Denver even. Its a good read about a court case, and our gun rights.
There are certain departments and agencies that are so corrupt a specialized federal task force of this sort would be the only way to deal with them. Fortunately, most departments do not require that level of oversight. Even here in Denver where everyone complains about how bad the cops are, police are arrested and prosecuted for crimes committed off duty. In some places that just doesn't happen, and if you try to report police misconduct there you become a target.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMat
Unfortunately, no such agency will ever exist in this country. The police unions are too strong. Police would strike, protest, or get in firefights with federal agents if an agency such as that was ever implemented. Would never work here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint45
and thus the second amendment.
Wow, I really hope that was extremely poor wording on your part, I also hope you aren't a cop in any jurisdiction my loved ones or myself live, work, or travel through. Holy shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneGuy67
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneGuy67
you honestly terrify me with that reasoning
Wow. [Bang]Quote:
Originally Posted by OneGuy67
Okay Matt,
I do breathe deeply before writing and most times, have to take a break from all the stupidity posted here on things most do not understand, nor want to understand. I have been VERY polite on all my online conversations here. Even Byte, whom I disagree with most days, would have to agree we have been polite to each other, even if in two different idealogical sides. We simply agree to disagree as much as I would love to reach through the computer and slap him sometimes! (Sorry Byte, still owe you that beer!)
Sigh...I get to the point here where I'm banging my head against the wall trying to educate the uneducated and more importantly, the I-don't-want-to-be-educated. I take my job seriously and it angers me when people make uneducated and stupid comments, for no reason other than they were dissed by a patrol cop once.
Matt, you were a hose dragger. My brother is a hose dragger and no amount of trying is there going to be an understanding of either ones job. I will never understand the amount of money spent on fire and rescue protection or the need to have a fire house every couple of miles, employing people who eat, work out, watch tv and sleep while getting paid the whole time. That being said, I don't publicly argue the need to close those firehouses or better align fire departments or districts for fiscal responsibility sake, better managmement, better equpment, better response times. I don't even try to understand Incident Command, although I have taken ICS 100, 200, 300, 500, 700 & 800. I don't expect you to understand my job either. I don't expect you to constantly read and keep aprised of new laws, case law, Supreme Court rulings, etc., etc., etc., but I do and it is a part of MY job.
That being said, I will answer your statements. Yes, I am married. However, I can and do decide what I am going to do with me. I can quit tomorrow if I want and go be a Starbucks barista. She can and will decide if she will put up with me and my decisions or go her own way. She doesn't rule me and I don't rule her. Your marriage may be different. That being said, let's keep the wives out of it.
Your statement (some parts exluded): "To begin with, I disagree with no knock raids for the most part for a simple reason. A (no) knock raid for drugs, evidence, warrants or what have you is just a waste of resouces and a dangerous game." That is your opinion. Some will agree, others will disagree. Every single case is different than the other and must be weighed on the facts of each. To make a blanket statement is ignorant. There can be circumstances where it may be necessary.
"I am not a cop, but I don't see why turning the water/power off, and waiting for the turd to come out or grabbing them on their way to their car/bike/bus/job, is less effective as a search method, and then, no one gets shot. If there is a hostage situation, active shooter, etc. go on in with my blessing." Again, case dependent. Sometimes, that might be a way to do things. Sometimes not. Since you mentioned resources, how much money are you willing to spend on payroll, OT, to wait out someone for a simple felony (let's say check fraud for the sake of argument) warrant? I guess I should point out that there wouldn't be a no-knock search warrant issued for this type of crime, but hey, since we are digressing here, why not fall down all the way. If it is a simple arrest warrant, it is crime dependent. The previously stated check fraud doesn't require that level of resources, but someone who has committed murder might. The old adage of killed once, will kill again comes to mind for me on those types of warrants. You don't tend to want to wait them out, especially when the media gets ahold of it and wants to know why you haven't acted for the sake of public safety. Remember Brent Brents? You may not have been in Colorado during that time.
I execute a number of search warrants over the course of a year and most all are done by knocking. When I get the occasional one that requires a higher level of response due to the person's history, behavior, or bravado speech, then we will talk about using a trained tactical team, potential risk issues, and conduct a risk assessment. There isn't a time in my nearly 20 years as a cop where I have gotten a no-knock warrant. Even for 1st degree murder charges. They are simply too hard to get here in Colorado without a lot of substaniating supportive documentation. I have done a number of high risk warrants (knock and announce and after an appropriate amount of time, booted the door) without anyone being injured, both good and bad guy, and without shooring the dog. Some crimes are inherently more risky to the officers involved, and a level of safety must be met for the sake of the officers.
Again your statement (again exluding some content): "From now on, there is a new law enforcement agency, federal level, no other LE ties. Their only role is to track, arrest and prosecute LEOs that broke laws, any of them, on the job or not. No more internal affairs. This agency can bust down cops doors with a warrent, the can tackle cops in the steets, on the job even and take them in. They can give cops speeding tickets or bust them for abusing their code lights. Their role is to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law, regardless of the cops status as cops. They can fine them or lock them up. How would that sit with you?" You seem to believe that cops aren't arrested, charged or prosecuted for committing criminal acts. You do read the news, don't you? Every damn cop who does something wrong is news; joe blow next door neighbor doing the same thing doesn't even make the news. Do you know what the Garrity ruling was (its case law, that pesky thing I have to keep up on)? Can you be compelled to give testimony against yourself or lose your job? How about giving testimony against your co-worker or be criminally charged or lose your job? No? Cops have to (and frankly, rightfully so).
Your statements: "If a SWAT team in Arizona, and their CO were suddenly facing a 1st degree murder rap for a raid gone wrong, do you really think the raids would continue?" Yes, they would.
Your statements: "My captain said to me once about working in a risky line of work 'We don't get paid for what we do, we get paid for what we might have to do.' For me that meant flying down the road and maybe running into a burning building/car, for a cop, this may mean drawing a weapon only when 100% sure you need it." Cops get paid for doing both. Some days are filled with taking cold reports, traffic accidents and lost/stolen cell phones, others with traffic enforcement, but once in a while, you have the high risk call of shots fired, or even the burning building in which the cops almost always get there before the fire boys and have already gone in to ensure there was no one in danger (blue canaries, right?).
And your last statement: "Finally, even if it is rare, and this stuff almost never happens, LEO abuse makes the news, and a raid gone wrong makes national news. If I ran a LE organization I would be really wary. I may not directly control the purse strings, but me and my 250 million friends sure do. Image matters, and it gets or costs votes, and votes are dollars." As the head of a law enforcement agency, you will be sued under vicarious liability each and every time. If you were worried about that to the point of your agency doing nothing, then you might as well fire everyone and contract with the neighboring city or county for LE services as you will be ineffective. People sue. You will be sued. Get over it and do your job. A sheriff is concerned about votes, a chief of police is not. Except in some rare circumstances like Denver (I won't get started on a Denver rant here), the chief works for a city manager, who works for a city council. They are the ones who get voted in, but for the vast majority of city councils here in Colorado, they aren't full time nor are they paid for as a full time job. Again, Denver is different.
This started as a rant over no-knock warrants out of a stupid song by a pot smoking liberal retard. You don't like no-knock warrants, got it. Too bad. Some places use them, some places even put time limits to when a search warrant can be executed. Colorado doesn't and getting a no-knock in Colorado is hard and mostly rare. Frankly, some are justified, based upon the circumstances, the persons involved, the crimes alleged, etc.
So, civil enough for you?
You are right! Now, can you tell me what forces the states to comply with the Constitution?Quote:
Originally Posted by bryjcom
And Bryan, read our own state Constitution. It mentions something about not being able to carry concealed...Interesting stuff!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMat
No. I was waiting for someone to correct me with the right response instead of rhetoric!
It wasn't. It was meant to get a response. Do you know why the states must abide by the Bill of Rights?Quote:
Originally Posted by TS12000
Ah, the famous, "I was testing you and I know the real answer." (that I didn't just look up on googe) debate-
I should have known!
I am not looking to be quized, I have the internet too. Thanks though.
Sigh...
It was the Fourtheenth Amendment. Due Process.
I give up.
I would rather a dozen cases go free due to the evidence being flushed than a single innocent man and/or at the wrong address killed.
Raise your hand if you have ever done OPFOR training and had a flashbang go off near you...
Same building....
Same room...
what could you hear afterwards?
Before for this thread gets closed I wanted to say, poor dogs. How many did they kill in that video?