What Am I Missing? - Israel and Hamas (Palestinians)

One side allows Arabs to live in peace and practice their religion unmolested. One side wants to murder the Jews, destroy Israel and the United States.

One side has a democratically elected government, the other side has elected a terrorist organization whose stated goal is to destroy Israel and kill the Jews.

One felt our sorrow and showed sympathy., the other side side cheered on 9/11

One side gets rocketed daily and is condemned when it defends itself, the other side gets a free pass to murder Jews.

What do I have wrong here?

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Originally Posted by roberth

One side allows Arabs to live in peace and practice their religion unmolested. One side wants to murder the Jews, destroy Israel and the United States.

One side has a democratically elected government, the other side has elected a terrorist organization whose stated goal is to destroy Israel and kill the Jews.

One side cheered on 9/11, the other side felt our sorrow and showed sympathy.

One side gets rocketed daily and is condemned when it defends itself, the other side gets a free pass to murder Jews.

What do I have wrong here?

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Sounds like you got it pretty much covered to me.

Most of it. Or rather you're cherry picking the best and worst interpretations respectively.

It's bright and early in my AO and I've got work to do. I'll get back to this tonight but I'll leave you with a couple of questions; Are you supporting America's interest or Israel's? Are those the same things or different? Can their interests be opposed to each other?

Just food for thought. I'll give you a better response when I make it back tonight.

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Originally Posted by Sharpienads

Sounds like you got it pretty much covered to me.

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Me too.
As I see it, one side is rightfully living on their land (as given to them in the Bible and by the UN), and the other side is butthurt about it.

you got it all figured out there Robert.
Not sure why you haven't been appointed to the peace talks.



[Eek3]

The Israelis aren't exactly the pure white knights you describe them as. They have been bulldozing Palestinian neighborhoods and arresting anybody too slow to get away. They've apparently got enough Palestinians locked away to trade over a thousand of them for a single captured Israeli.

But the rest of it seems accurate.

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Originally Posted by Mick-Boy

Most of it. Or rather you're cherry picking the best and worst interpretations respectively.

It's bright and early in my AO and I've got work to do. I'll get back to this tonight but I'll leave you with a couple of questions; Are you supporting America's interest or Israel's? Are those the same things or different? Can their interests be opposed to each other?

Just food for thought. I'll give you a better response when I make it back tonight.

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I look forward to your responses and I'll give some thought overnight to your questions too. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Byte Stryke

you got it all figured out there Robert.
Not sure why you haven't been appointed to the peace talks.



[Eek3]

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I'm certain I'm going to learn something. It won't matter if I like it or not, the facts are the facts.

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Originally Posted by Ridge

The Israelis aren't exactly the pure white knights you describe them as. They have been bulldozing Palestinian neighborhoods and arresting anybody too slow to get away. They've apparently got enough Palestinians locked away to trade over a thousand of them for a single captured Israeli.

But the rest of it seems accurate.

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I'm sure the Israelis have a somewhat muddy past just like these United States.

Bulldozing, depends on where it is I suppose and whether or not terrorist attacks were planned and carried out from those neighborhoods.

Let's see who a few of the released Palestinians were shall we.

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Those being freed include the founders of Hamas’s armed wing and militants who kidnapped and killed Israeli soldiers and civilians. A mastermind of the 2001 bombing of a Jerusalem pizzeria that killed 15 will walk out of prison, as will a woman who used the Internet to lure a lovesick Israeli teenager to a Palestinian city and had him murdered.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/17/wo...-in-trade.html

I'm thinking the Israelis are going to have to endure some more murders at the hands of these upstanding human beings.

I don't think anybody is going to tell you that Israel is the pure white knight, but the difference is Israel can get along with others. It's the others that want to see Israel removed. I'm sure Israel has done some pretty harsh, violent, whatever things, but if it came down to my survival, I would do the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Tor Larson

Zionist terror organizations forced England's hand and helped bring about their independence soon after WW2.

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You make it sound like a bad thing...

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Originally Posted by Tor Larson

Zionist terror organizations forced England's hand and helped bring about their independence soon after WW2.

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One man's terrorist, another's freedom fighter.

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Originally Posted by DeusExMachina

One man's terrorist, another's freedom fighter.

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I hate it when people say this.

Deus has now crossed the line. There is no statement, no argument that can counter or soften those words. End of the line as far as I'm concerned with regards to DeusLaMachina.

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Originally Posted by sneakerd

Deus has now crossed the line. There is no statement, no argument that can counter or soften those words. End of the line as far as I'm concerned with regards to DeusLaMachina.

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Excuse me? Please, tell me what you THINK I said. I love it when people try to tell me what I think!

Are you a member of Hamas or something?

And I really want to know what "end of the line" means to you.

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Originally Posted by Sharpienads

I hate it when people say this.

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Why? Because it's true? It's all about perspective.

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Originally Posted by roberth

One side allows Arabs to live in peace and practice their religion unmolested. One side wants to murder the Jews, destroy Israel and the United States.

One side has a democratically elected government, the other side has elected a terrorist organization whose stated goal is to destroy Israel and kill the Jews.

One side cheered on 9/11, the other side felt our sorrow and showed sympathy.

One side gets rocketed daily and is condemned when it defends itself, the other side gets a free pass to murder Jews.

What do I have wrong here?

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Your third sentence should be switched to keep the presentation consistent. ;)

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Originally Posted by DeusExMachina

Why? Because it's true? It's all about perspective.

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Because I don't accept that premise that perspective dictates what is right or wrong, good or evil, moral or immoral.

Post #13. My last words to this member. For what little it's worth.

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Originally Posted by Irving

Your third sentence should be switched to keep the presentation consistent. ;)

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Well played, Sir. Good thing he didn't end a sentence with a preposition.

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Originally Posted by Sharpienads

Because I don't accept that premise that perspective dictates what is right or wrong, good or evil, moral or immoral.

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This.
Right and wrong is not about how you see things.
I doubt Achmed thinks he's doing anything wrong when he blows up a crowded marketplace or shoots up a Church or Synagogue. That doesn't make his actions right.
You could call a relative of mine killing a diplomat for the sake of establishing a country as bad, or an act of terrorism. That doesn't make it wrong.

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Originally Posted by Sharpienads

Well played, Sir. Good thing he didn't end a sentence with a preposition.

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Well he's not from Palestine.

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Originally Posted by Irving

Well he's not from Palestine.

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Oh, I get it now. I thought you were commenting on how the third sentence was in past tense while the rest were in present tense. I guess I still haven't gotten over your post asking us to proofread the sentence.

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Originally Posted by Sharpienads

Because I don't accept that premise that perspective dictates what is right or wrong, good or evil, moral or immoral.

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You believe the world is black and white? That's extremely naive.

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Originally Posted by sneakerd

Post #13. My last words to this member. For what little it's worth.

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Are you butt hurt from the OWS thread(s)? Am I not entitled to my opinion?

I guarantee you are completely misunderstanding what I said, without even bothering to ask. Do you often just "write people off" like that? That's extremely...sad.

I think they all want to blow each other up. Their fighting has been going on for thousands of years, we are not going to stop it, even the great obama tried to put his foot in it and everybody is up in arms with what he says.

That is why I flip off the people with the coexist stickers. their ideological thinking, that some words and a stupid ass bumper sticker are going to change entire cultures thinking is absolutely asinine. So I give them the bird with a smile to see if they can even "coexist" with me

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Originally Posted by DeusExMachina

You believe the world is black and white? That's extremely naive.

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I don't think rejecting perpesctive as the basis for right and wrong makes me believe the world is black and white. I also don't believe it makes me naive.

If you believe perspective determines right and wrong, than you don't really believe in anything and have no principles or morals to stand on. I believe there are universal truths or natural laws. Murder is wrong would be one of these. If you can justify murder based on perspective, what are you doing on a pro-gun website?

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Originally Posted by Sharpienads

I don't think rejecting perpesctive as the basis for right and wrong makes me believe the world is black and white. I also don't believe it makes me naive.

If you believe perspective determines right and wrong, than you don't really believe in anything and have no principles or morals to stand on. I believe there are universal truths or natural laws. Murder is wrong would be one of these. If you can justify murder based on perspective, what are you doing on a pro-gun website?

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But isn't murder right or wrong based on perspective?

It's OK to kill enemies, but its not OK to kill innocents. Isn't that perspective?

You're saying you're rejecting perspective, so you are saying you embrace universal beliefs of right and wrong, or good and evil.

You do understand that al Qaeda believes what they are doing is right, don't you? They're not terrorists to be 'evil' because they want to be 'evil'. It's perspective.

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Originally Posted by Sharpienads

If you can justify murder based on perspective, what are you doing on a pro-gun website?

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Have you ever read Unintended Consequences?

there is a lot of antisemitism that is prevalent at the occupy wal street protests, that has been edited out by the media.

because a lot of the people who are there are very liberal. and generally liberal people are pro palestine rather than israel.

both sides have done good and bad things, but if I had to pick one I'd pick israel.

oh, and what deusex said is absolutely true.

if the revolutionary war had been lost the founding fathers would have been hung as traitors.

if you disagree, then say you disagree. don't have a damn tantrum about it.

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Originally Posted by DeusExMachina

But isn't murder right or wrong based on perspective?

It's OK to kill enemies, but its not OK to kill innocents. Isn't that perspective?

You're saying you're rejecting perspective, so you are saying you embrace universal beliefs of right and wrong, or good and evil.

You do understand that al Qaeda believes what they are doing is right, don't you? They're not terrorists to be 'evil' because they want to be 'evil'. It's perspective.

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There is a difference between murder and killing. Killing an enemy in time of war who would otherwise kill you is not murder, killing an innocent person regardless of circumstances is murder. To some extent I guess you could say that the above example relies on perspective, but the perspective should be a function of what is right or wrong determined by natural law, not the other way around.

Al Qaeda can believe whatever they want to believe, but that doesn't make it right just because they believe it. If right and wrong are determined by perspective, than anything can be justified.

I should have said "to purposefully kill an innocent person regardless of circumstances in murder".

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Originally Posted by Elhuero

there is a lot of antisemitism that is prevalent at the occupy wal street protests, that has been edited out by the media.

because a lot of the people who are there are very liberal. and generally liberal people are pro palestine rather than israel.

both sides have done good and bad things, but if I had to pick one I'd pick israel.

oh, and what deusex said is absolutely true.

if the revolutionary war had been lost the founding fathers would have been hung as traitors.

if you disagree, then say you disagree. don't have a damn tantrum about it.

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Thank you. If the word terrorist had been invented, you bet your ass the British would have called the founding fathers terrorists.

History is written by the victors. That's another statement some people might have issue with.

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Originally Posted by Sharpienads

There is a difference between murder and killing. Killing an enemy in time of war who would otherwise kill you is not murder, killing an innocent person regardless of circumstances is murder. To some extent I guess you could say that the above example relies on perspective, but the perspective should be a function of what is right or wrong determined by natural law, not the other way around.

Al Qaeda can believe whatever they want to believe, but that doesn't make it right just because they believe it. If right and wrong are determined by perspective, than anything can be justified.

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So murder is bad, but killing is good?

To the guy you're killing, you're murdering him. Saying his perspective isn't valid sounds kind of evil and selfish. As if you're the only person in the universe.

Because they believe it makes it right to them. Thus, perspective.

And yes, anything can be justified. Usually the justification comes from 1) the winner, or 2) the one who's the most convincing.

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Originally Posted by Irving

Have you ever read Unintended Consequences?

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No.

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Originally Posted by Sharpienads

I should have said "to purposefully kill an innocent person regardless of circumstances in murder".

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Well, now we're getting into legal definitions which isn't really going to go anywhere. I get what you're saying, but sadly the world isn't so simple.

Sometimes, I consider what if real life was like a comic book or a movie. Where some person or group are evil because they want to be evil, and do evil things. It would make things a lot easier. I feel like this ended after WW2, but then I think it's only because we are taught our perspective and don't know the Axis' perspective on things. Concentration camps and mass-murdering certainly make it easier to pick out the bad guy, but what about Japan? Sure, they attacked us, but were they truly evil? I'm just rambling..something something up too late trying to fix my phone something.

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Originally Posted by DeusExMachina

So murder is bad, but killing is good?

To the guy you're killing, you're murdering him. Saying his perspective isn't valid sounds kind of evil and selfish. As if you're the only person in the universe.

Because they believe it makes it right to them. Thus, perspective.

And yes, anything can be justified. Usually the justification comes from 1) the winner, or 2) the one who's the most convincing.

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Ok, let's try this. Explain to me a situation in which raping a woman is not wrong.

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Originally Posted by Sharpienads

Ok, let's try this. Explain to me a situation in which raping a woman is not wrong.

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To me? No, never. It is always wrong. Well, unless it's her fantasy but I guess that's not really rape. [LOL]

To some guy in Africa, who wants his tribe's legacy to continue on? Absolutely right to him. But you could argue he doesn't have a concept of "right" and "wrong", or rather, his concepts of right and wrong are totally different to ours.

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Originally Posted by Sharpienads

No.

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Well, I'd like to hear your perspective on the book. Run out and get a copy (it's out of print), read it, and let me know what you think. I'll check back this time tomorrow.



Seriously though, if you come across a copy, I have an electronic copy I'll email to you, I'd like to know what you think about it.

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Originally Posted by DeusExMachina

To me? No, never. It is always wrong. Well, unless it's her fantasy but I guess that's not really rape. [LOL]

To some guy in Africa, who wants his tribe's legacy to continue on? Absolutely right to him. But you could argue he doesn't have a concept of "right" and "wrong", or rather, his concepts of right and wrong are totally different to ours.

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Well it would seem we're at an impasse here. I believe that rape is wrong no matter who you are or where you're at. While you might not agree with it, you believe that it can be justified.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Irving

Well, I'd like to hear your perspective on the book. Run out and get a copy (it's out of print), read it, and let me know what you think. I'll check back this time tomorrow.



Seriously though, if you come across a copy, I have an electronic copy I'll email to you, I'd like to know what you think about it.

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Ok I'll check it out. I have a couple of classes that I'll be finished with next week and will start reading it after they're finished.

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Originally Posted by Sharpienads

Well it would seem we're at an impasse here. I believe that rape is wrong no matter who you are or where you're at. While you might not agree with it, you believe that it can be justified.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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To be clear, I'm not saying I can justify it, I'm just saying that it can be justified by someone.

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Originally Posted by DeusExMachina

To be clear, I'm not saying I can justify it, I'm just saying that it can be justified by someone.

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Yeah I got it. Now about those pre-teen transgenders....

Just joking, we've been unnaturally civil with each I don't want it to change. [Tooth]