French Ride Forth to Check Islamic Aggresion

File this under "Headlines From the 700s AD"

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/14/wo...mali.html?_r=0

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BAMAKO, Mali — French fighter jets struck deep inside Islamist strongholds in northern Mali on Sunday, shoving aside months of international hesitation about storming the region after every other effort by the United States and its allies to thwart the extremists had failed.

For years, the United States tried to stem the spread of Islamic militancy in the region by conducting its most ambitious counterterrorism program ever across these vast, turbulent stretches of the Sahara.
But as insurgents swept through the desert last year, commanders of this nation’s elite army units, the fruit of years of careful American training, defected when they were needed most — taking troops, guns, trucks and their newfound skills to the enemy in the heat of battle, according to senior Malian military officials.
“It was a disaster,” said one of several senior Malian officers to confirm the defections.

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Well, they've been fighting Muslims trying to expand their territories for almost 1300 years, so they do know how its done. Hopefully they shake the rust off and get back into it.

Wow, looks like a slap to America's intelligence/military efforts there. Glad the French aren't afraid to get dirty. Africa is such a clusterfuck.

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Originally Posted by Ghosty

Wow, looks like a slap to America's intelligence/military efforts there. Glad the French aren't afraid to get dirty. Africa is such a clusterfuck.

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The whole WOT has been a decade+ long story of "roll in, make things worse, wonder what happened."

It's really a sad state of affairs, the Islamists are stronger now than they ever have been. Hopefully the French do a better job, but who knows.

Our main African efforts should be to send Seal Team 6 into Ethiopia to retrieve the Ark of the Covenant!! Then all else won't matter... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...othygrin-1.gif

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/182d...g/original.jpg

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Originally Posted by Pancho Villa

The whole WOT has been a decade+ long story of "roll in, make things worse, wonder what happened."

It's really a sad state of affairs, the Islamists are stronger now than they ever have been. Hopefully the French do a better job, but who knows.

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Funny... I don't see them being stronger at all. I see maybe their cause being bolstered a bit because of wars in Islamic lands- but stronger? I don't remember any successful large-scale attacks on US Soil since 2001... Oh and I don't remember reading stories of the Iraqi gov torturing it's own people since Saddam was put to death, nor do I remember reading about any recent Afghan government laws banning girls from attending school. "Make things worse" is a very subjective comment.

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

Oh and I don't remember reading stories of the Iraqi gov torturing it's own people since Saddam was put to deat, nor do I remember reading about any recent Afghan government laws banning girls from attending school. "Make things worse" is a very subjective comment.

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Sadly, even without Saddam & the Republican Guard, Iraq is STILL A MUSLIM country. I doubt there has been that much change. I'm sure their justice system is still harsh as hell, nothing like America/Europe. Think of Saudi Arabia, our semi-ally with an actual AirForce base there. You better believe they torture the shit out of their prisoners, and still treat women like slaves in every facet of life, EVEN TODAY. Same with the Taliban killing/torturing girls trying to attend schools, and burning down those schools. The Afghan government is NO friend of ours or the West, they're just taking advantage of our goodwill and $$$$$. Pakistan is exactly the same, they are our enemies, you better believe it. It's just a "marriage of convenience" right now, while the $$$ flows out of YOURS AND MY wallet/taxes. ;)

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

Funny... I don't see them being stronger at all. I see maybe their cause being bolstered a bit because of wars in Islamic lands- but stronger? I don't remember any successful large-scale attacks on US Soil since 2001... Oh and I don't remember reading stories of the Iraqi gov torturing it's own people since Saddam was put to death, nor do I remember reading about any recent Afghan government laws banning girls from attending school. "Make things worse" is a very subjective comment.

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Islam is the national religion of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Apostasy is punishable by death in both countries. It has been prevented in a few high-profile cases only by US diplomatic intervention in both countries.

Both countries will be supporting Islamic terrorists with US supplied arms and training, not to mention better infrastructure and out-and-out support, within a few years of us leaving, on the outside. Neither country is better off in the long run than before. Iraq is arguably going to be worse off.

If you think the win/loss bar in this war is "terrorist attacks in the US" you are very much off base. Islam as a political system must be smashed, and Islam itself converted from a theocratic religion ala Catholicism in the dark ages to a peaceful one. The only way to do that is crushing military defeats and forcing Islam out of the political arena at the point of a sword. That is the measure of our success, and by that measure we've failed miserably.

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Originally Posted by Pancho Villa

Well, they've been fighting Muslims trying to expand their territories for almost 1300 years, so they do know how its done. Hopefully they shake the rust off and get back into it.

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Ironically through political correctness they've allowed Muslims to emigrate in and out-breed the native French so that probably within our lifetimes France will become a Muslim country.

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Originally Posted by Ghosty

Sadly, even without Saddam & the Republican Guard, Iraq is STILL A MUSLIM country. I doubt there has been that much change. I'm sure their justice system is still harsh as hell, nothing like America/Europe. Think of Saudi Arabia, our semi-ally with an actual AirForce base there. You better believe they torture the shit out of their prisoners, and still treat women like slaves in every facet of life, EVEN TODAY. Same with the Taliban killing/torturing girls trying to attend schools, and burning down those schools. The Afghan government is NO friend of ours or the West, they're just taking advantage of our goodwill and $$$$$. Pakistan is exactly the same, they are our enemies, you better believe it. It's just a "marriage of convenience" right now, while the $$$ flows out of YOURS AND MY wallet/taxes. ;)

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I agree, but with our kill/capture program, the Reaper Initiative, Operation Neptune's Spear, etc., we have effectively decimated most of the AQ command structure, have the Taliban pretty bruised up, and on the whole, Iraq and Afghanistan are better now than they were 13+ years ago. Iraq isn't torturing their sports teams for losing, they aren't using chemical weapons on an entire ethnic group, and Arab-Christians aren't exactly hiding out any more. Sure, the Taliban is still menacing their society and when we pull out completely of both place it's just going to slip again...but for now it's actually better. Anyone who does't think AFG is better now than it was in 2000, well my guess is they've never been there and they assume things.

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Originally Posted by Pancho Villa

Islam is the national religion of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Apostasy is punishable by death in both countries. It has been prevented in a few high-profile cases only by US diplomatic intervention in both countries.

Both countries will be supporting Islamic terrorists with US supplied arms and training, not to mention better infrastructure and out-and-out support, within a few years of us leaving, on the outside. Neither country is better off in the long run than before. Iraq is arguably going to be worse off.

If you think the win/loss bar in this war is "terrorist attacks in the US" you are very much off base. Islam as a political system must be smashed, and Islam itself converted from a theocratic religion ala Catholicism in the dark ages to a peaceful one. The only way to do that is crushing military defeats and forcing Islam out of the political arena at the point of a sword. That is the measure of our success, and by that measure we've failed miserably.

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I agree 100%, and I don't rate the win/lose bar as there haven't been terrorist attacks here, that's part of it though. When Obama took office, we were on the road to victory- in 2014, when ODipshit pulls our troops out of Afghanistan, I promise you, within 12 mos the Taliban will be back in power.

Our boys did a great job and had their hands tied behind their back by politicians who wanted to respect Islam. Islam is the cancer of the earth. There is no reasoning with cancer.

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

I agree 100%, and I don't rate the win/lose bar as there haven't been terrorist attacks here, that's part of it though. When Obama took office, we were on the road to victory- in 2014, when ODipshit pulls our troops out of Afghanistan, I promise you, within 12 mos the Taliban will be back in power.

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The problem isn't Obama. We were on our way out of Iraq & Afghanistan eventually and whenever we leave, the Islamists will not "take over in 12 mouths" - read the laws on the books right now in Iraq and Afghanistan. THEY ALREADY WON. They're getting billions in US aid. Their soldiers are being trained and equipped by us. Their roads and schools and hospitals built by us. Some harder-line Islamists may quibble with them but whenever the dust clears and whoever wins out they will have the US to thank for a bunch of shiny new infrastructure and US supplied military arms and munitions, along with the latest thinking on TTPs from the current best army in the world, and a decade of experience fighting us.

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Originally Posted by flan7211

Our boys did a great job and had their hands tied behind their back by politicians who wanted to respect Islam. Islam is the cancer of the earth. There is no reasoning with cancer.

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THIS! Believe me, I know... the ROE over there is a joke. They tell us to fight the BGs, but with such a strict ROE we're not fighting, we're asking for permission. NATO is partly to blame too, their command is a bunch of Sallys who don't know how you win a war.

Not sure where I stand on the "hands tied behind their back", since I'm not a veteran I don't know if I have the right to have an opinion. But obviously you have to look at the BIG picture now, this isn't the WWII era. To garner support from allies, especially the MiddleEastern countries, instead of unilateral violent action, we have to use surgical strikes, and do what we can to avoid civilian casualties. YES IT SUCKS for our soldiers, but in the big picture, isn't that the better route, instead of dead civilians who are for the most part innocent, compared to the insurgents and extremists we really want to kill?

Otherwise yeah, we could just "nuke it into glass", right? Not a viable option.

What I find funny is how they will fight muzzies on foreign soil but won't do squat about the demographic hiroshima these people have put on them. Any wonder why the National Front keeps doing better and better in elections? Your average Frenchman is feeling the pressure and the 2 parties have failed him.

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Originally Posted by flan7211

What I find funny is how they will fight muzzies on foreign soil but won't do squat about the demographic hiroshima these people have put on them. Any wonder why the National Front keeps doing better and better in elections? Your average Frenchman is feeling the pressure and the 2 parties have failed him.

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Sir, you are spot on!

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Originally Posted by Ghosty

Not sure where I stand on the "hands tied behind their back", since I'm not a veteran I don't know if I have the right to have an opinion. But obviously you have to look at the BIG picture now, this isn't the WWII era. To garner support from allies, especially the MiddleEastern countries, instead of unilateral violent action, we have to use surgical strikes, and do what we can to avoid civilian casualties. YES IT SUCKS for our soldiers, but in the big picture, isn't that the better route, instead of dead civilians who are for the most part innocent, compared to the insurgents and extremists we really want to kill?

Otherwise yeah, we could just "nuke it into glass", right? Not a viable option.

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Do you realize that due to the restrictions on how to engage, we have people getting shot up and then after an area is secured our people waste lots of time taking pictures making targets of themselves so they don't get their ass in a sling because of bureaucracy. If you are housing someone that is trying to kill me, you cease to be a civilian in my eyes, sorry if someone that was coerced dies because of their situation, but their compliance and silence put them in that situation.

I hear ya. I just try to put myself in the other shoes, even if a life-long civilian, I realize war is ugly. What if I'm innocent, HATE the Taliban, but they come into my house put a gun to my wife and kids heads and say they're camping out there. Now what? Excuse me if I try to look at every angle, even the unpleasant, "This is a shit sandwich and we all have to take a bite" angle, which blows I know.

Keep in mind, I voted for Bush TWICE, because I believed that both wars were good causes, even if that fuckshit Cheney and Halliburton got as much benefit out of it as the Iraqi civilians. I also was in favor of McChrystal getting ALL the 60k extra surge troops he asked for in Afghan, at least Obama gave him at least half that.

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Originally Posted by flan7211

What I find funny is how they will fight muzzies on foreign soil but won't do squat about the demographic hiroshima these people have put on them. Any wonder why the National Front keeps doing better and better in elections? Your average Frenchman is feeling the pressure and the 2 parties have failed him.

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Too late for them when they elected Hollande over Le Pen. They really f'd themselves just like our country did re-electing The Asshole.

French actions gain American and British support:

http://reason.com/blog/2013/01/14/fr...n-mali-gathers

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Although Al Qaeda-linked militants have been pushed back by French operations some have taken the central town of Diabaly as part of a wider advance south. French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius has been stressing that the operation in Mali will be over soon and predicts that it will be completed in “a matter of weeks.” Militants in Mali have pledged to strike “at the heart” of France in a statement that confirms the fears of a French judge who warned that an intervention in Mali could lead to terrorist attacks on French soil.

As Ed noted earlier, Dominique de Villepin, who was France’s foreign minister from 2002 to 2004, has said that France would do well to learn from the lessons of Afghanistan and Iraq, lessons that British and American officials have apparently yet to learn.

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Again, good to see another western power back in the fight, even if in a limited manner.

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Originally Posted by Pancho Villa

Islam is the national religion of Iraq and Afghanistan.

If you think the win/loss bar in this war is "terrorist attacks in the US" you are very much off base. Islam as a political system must be smashed, and Islam itself converted from a theocratic religion ala Catholicism in the dark ages to a peaceful one. The only way to do that is crushing military defeats and forcing Islam out of the political arena at the point of a sword. That is the measure of our success, and by that measure we've failed miserably.

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Pancho and i agree on something for the second time in a few months. anyone see the flying pigs yet

religious aspects aside it is the politics of islam that are dangerous

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Originally Posted by Pancho Villa

Again, good to see another western power back in the fight, even if in a limited manner.

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Getting less limited by the hour.... 2500 troops now, and some units received marching order today (2nd REP) as well as attack helos (Tigre)

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Originally Posted by Pancho Villa

If you think the win/loss bar in this war is "terrorist attacks in the US" you are very much off base. Islam as a political system must be smashed, and Islam itself converted from a theocratic religion ala Catholicism in the dark ages to a peaceful one. The only way to do that is crushing military defeats and forcing Islam out of the political arena at the point of a sword. That is the measure of our success, and by that measure we've failed miserably.

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How did I miss this brilliant post the first time around? Very well stated, even if it sounds harsh to the "softies" out there. I'm Indian, my Motherland has been fighting Muslims for centuries! We're still squabbling over some dirt & rocks in Kashmere, right?

I'm not racist against Islamic countries, but I'm not a fan either. I'm for all our military actions, and applaud the French. I praise the new Spring in some of those countries, and praise the brave moderate souls that are against the Sharia bullshit and satanic Imams that are anti-Jewish. Hindus are friends with Jews LONG before they will ever be soft on Muslims. If that's racist, so be it, I aint skurred.

My latest reason for being extremely pissed is not being able to see the Great Pyramids and temples in Egypt (lifelong dream), but that's a side-story.

Islamists taking hostages in Algeria in retribution for the French intervention in Mali: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21042659
Meanwhile, criminals, vagabonds and psychopaths - sorry, I mean the French Foreign Legion - are rolling out of Bamako: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21038856

Reportedly engaging in hand-to-hand combat with the Islamists.

This whole thing has an eerie ring of history to it.

Have the French surrendered yet?

So, reading here between the lines, Al Qaeda is right: This is a crusade, or a war on Islam? That's really too bad.

It isn't the religion, really, it is the political ambitions of several individuals who seek to gain prestige or power. They use the religion to legitimize their ambitions. It isn't so different anywhere in the world you go. Religion has been used by the ambitious to assuage the legitimate alarm of those who would otherwise oppose that ambition.

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Originally Posted by stubbicatt

So, reading here between the lines, Al Qaeda is right: This is a crusade, or a war on Islam? That's really too bad.

It isn't the religion, really, it is the political ambitions of several individuals who seek to gain prestige or power. They use the religion to legitimize their ambitions. It isn't so different anywhere in the world you go. Religion has been used by the ambitious to assuage the legitimate alarm of those who would otherwise oppose that ambition.

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I have to disagree. This isn't a war on Islam; in the sense that, the goal is not the destruction of Islam as a religion, or the conversion of any adherents, which is the only sense a "war on islam" makes sense.

It IS (or should be) a war to keep Islam out of the political arena, where it has proven to be destructive to human well-being and liberty.

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Originally Posted by JohnTRourke

Have the French surrendered yet?

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I've wanted to ask this every time I saw this topic, but didn't.

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Originally Posted by JohnTRourke

Have the French surrendered yet?

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No but your mom surrendered to a frenchman a long time ago.

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Originally Posted by stubbicatt

So, reading here between the lines, Al Qaeda is right: This is a crusade, or a war on Islam? That's really too bad.

It isn't the religion, really, it is the political ambitions of several individuals who seek to gain prestige or power. They use the religion to legitimize their ambitions. It isn't so different anywhere in the world you go. Religion has been used by the ambitious to assuage the legitimate alarm of those who would otherwise oppose that ambition.

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You obviously don't get it.

Don't worry guys, the French can surrender all they want... we've already got "boots on the ground" and have for a good minute now.

I hope the FFL kills as many muzzies as possible.

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Originally Posted by Pancho Villa

I have to disagree. This isn't a war on Islam; in the sense that, the goal is not the destruction of Islam as a religion, or the conversion of any adherents, which is the only sense a "war on islam" makes sense.

It IS (or should be) a war to keep Islam out of the political arena, where it has proven to be destructive to human well-being and liberty.

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You just articulated The West's fundamental misunderstanding of Islam.

Islam is a religion. Islam is a political system. Islam is a life system. There can be no religion of Islam without the Islamic state and without the Islamic life system (Sharia Law). They are inseparable. Political Islam must be eradicated. Unfortunately you can't eliminate it without eliminating the religion as well. You can beat them back to where they're not a significant threat but as long as the religion of Islam exists, political Islam will always return and try to take over the world.

The central tenant of the religion of Islam is the central tenant of political Islam. Kill or convert everyone.

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Originally Posted by Pancho Villa

Islamists taking hostages in Algeria in retribution for the French intervention in Mali: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21042659
Meanwhile, criminals, vagabonds and psychopaths - sorry, I mean the French Foreign Legion - are rolling out of Bamako: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21038856

Reportedly engaging in hand-to-hand combat with the Islamists.

This whole thing has an eerie ring of history to it.

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I know you jest, but the FFL really has the pick of the litter these days with the economy so they're not all terrible thugs.

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Originally Posted by KestrelBike

I know you jest, but the FFL really has the pick of the litter these days with the economy so they're not all terrible thugs.

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I know.

I still love the history of the thing, though. Like post-WWII where most of the FFL seemed to be ex-SS...

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Originally Posted by Zundfolge

You just articulated The West's fundamental misunderstanding of Islam.

Islam is a religion. Islam is a political system. Islam is a life system. There can be no religion of Islam without the Islamic state and without the Islamic life system (Sharia Law). They are inseparable. Political Islam must be eradicated. Unfortunately you can't eliminate it without eliminating the religion as well. You can beat them back to where they're not a significant threat but as long as the religion of Islam exists, political Islam will always return and try to take over the world.

The central tenant of the religion of Islam is the central tenant of political Islam. Kill or convert everyone.

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History disagrees with you. There are sects of Islam that are fervently antipolitical; I think this sort of thing is just more conservative masturbatory fantasies about a repeat of the crusades.

You can do it, you just have to set about with the goal being to do it; not "install democracy and hope everything works out."

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Originally Posted by Pancho Villa

I know.

I still love the history of the thing, though. Like post-WWII where most of the FFL seemed to be ex-SS...

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When I trained with them in Guyana they were all former east german Stasi or Romanian securitat... Yeah, lot of blood on their hands.

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Originally Posted by ruthabagah

When I trained with them in Guyana they were all former east german Stasi or Romanian securitat... Yeah, lot of blood on their hands.

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That's a story you need to tell some time. I'd love to hear it over a beer.

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Originally Posted by Pancho Villa

That's a story you need to tell some time. I'd love to hear it over a beer.

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Will be happy to.

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Originally Posted by Zundfolge

You just articulated The West's fundamental misunderstanding of Islam.

Islam is a religion. Islam is a political system. Islam is a life system. There can be no religion of Islam without the Islamic state and without the Islamic life system (Sharia Law). They are inseparable. .

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There are quite a few Turks who would disagree with this statement.

Related: recently, French Operatuers tried to rescue a spy in custody of the bad guys in Somalia...the bad guys were somehow tipped off to the incoming raid and were present in numbers and ready. The French team was repelled with 2 casualties.

A bit ghastly, so don't look if you aren't okay with it. Pic of one of the killed french operatuers:

http://imageshack.us/a/img687/9222/1358423263032.jpg

Apparently the french SF guys (or at least this guy and one other) favored the MP7 and Glock 19. Typical gear for a SF raid otherwise - breaching stuff and so forth.

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/6...8425072691.jpg

Arrow is where they deployed from helis, expecting to roll in with total surprise. The box is where the target was, and where lots of somalis were, ready for them.

There have been a few western SF teams apparently ambushed by the enemy who is ready and waiting. Is the enemy penetrating our intelligence services or are we just becoming predictable?

Or are they just getting lucky?

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Originally Posted by Pancho Villa

I know.

I still love the history of the thing, though. Like post-WWII where most of the FFL seemed to be ex-SS...

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I read somewhere that about 66% of the legionnaires who parachuted into the siege of Dien Bien Phu were all ex-wehrmacht/SS.