Shooting at School in Parkland, Florida

[Irving]

Why can't someone point out the fact that it's irrational to demand sweeping legal changes based on a statistically insignificant number of deaths without being characterized as not being upset?

I am very upset when any child is killed. I read about children being killed every single day in the news. Some are killed in horrific ways that actually brings tears to my eyes. Humans can be downright evil. That will always be the case. But it sure appears that the vast majority of this country gets far more upset at the weapon used than they do at the actual fact a child was killed.

When one side wants to argue that an event or events are reason enough to demand MAJOR legal changes that cut right to the heart of this country's founding principals and chooses to focus on one particular cause for these events, then yeah, it's ok to point out that their reasoning is flawed by using facts and percentages. And that perhaps their hypocrisy shows their outrage is a bit less than genuine.

Yes, it's upsetting. But the fact remains that it's extremely uncommon. If we as a society don't demand changes for something that happens a lot, then how can we possibly justify demanding changes for something that happens almost never?

PS - I seriously can't understand why we even have this conversation each time this happens. If we as a nation were truly concerned with children losing their lives, there are a lot more significant causes we should be talking about.

I have to very carefully choose my words here, as I don't want to give the wrong impression. I agree with you and I don't want anyone to think that I don't.

I think we, as gun owners who don't want to see our rights lost, continuously fall into a trap every time this happens. We're not just trying to solve a math problem, where simply stating facts is enough for everyone to agree and move on. I want to lay out the situation with the relationship between politicians, upset people that see guns as a tool (minority), and upset people that have no regard for guns as tools (majority), but I won't waste the time because we've seen it all, and heard it all before.

I'll save everyone whatever long post that'd get me on yet another ignore list and just sum up that no amount of rational, factual statements can over come the emotions of dead kids. It just doesn't work like that. I make my posts because I see a group of people who are very passionate about the big picture of keeping rights in place, but losing themselves in the argument and not being able to make up any ground against their opposition. Just a reminder that we're still talking about dead people and while cold hard facts seems like the answer against out of control emotional knee-jerking, it just comes across as cold and hard. I know that this website is a conservative safe space, or the office water cooler if you will, but remember that when you're out in real life and want to make an impression on someone, sometimes a "just the facts" approach doesn't cut it. That's why all the logic in the world hasn't done much to gain any traction. I really wish I had an answer; if I did I'd gladly share it with everyone. In the meantime, I can at least point out where people can potentially do harm to their own side and say, "Hey, you might be right, but if you don't deliver your message with precision, it won't matter."

I feel like I should mention to Gilpin Guy that this wasn't necessarily spawned from your post, and certainly not you specifically, since we've all said the same things at various time over the years, especially myself.

[Irving]

I guess I dont understand what demolishing the building does?

Patch the holes, paint the walls, sanitize and carry on.

But no, they want to destroy a perfectly good building. If I'm being "insensitive" forgive me because I don't see logic in this at all.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/16...cial-says.html

I don't know if you're from here, but with Columbine, they just closed off the library and remodeled. I think this is a newer thing. I thought Newtown demo'd that school, and I honestly didn't pay attention to any of the others enough to know how common this is. I'm in agreement with you though. People wanted to have a debate about what to do with the Aurora Theater after that as well. As one of our more insightful members suggested at the time, "It's a movie theater, show movies in it."

The deep, dark, cynical part of me wants to believe that school administrators want so badly for increased budgets all the time that they jump at the chance to tear something down and demand a brand new building. I wouldn't say that in polite company though.

[crays]

I guess I dont understand what demolishing the building does?

Patch the holes, paint the walls, sanitize and carry on.

But no, they want to destroy a perfectly good building. If I'm being "insensitive" forgive me because I don't see logic in this at all.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/16...cial-says.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Short answer:
because "feels" trump practicality.

"If we can't see it, (we can pretend) it didn't happen."

Remember the recent effort to eradicate Confederate monuments?




Sent from somewhere

[GilpinGuy]

Why does something have to be common place before people are upset about it?

"Man beats his wife to death in front of their 5 children." -some made up headline.

What's the big deal? Out of that family of 7, only one person died.


I understand that it was fashionable to point out the statistics in the face of defending 2A rights when this first started happening. We need to be careful not to be too cavalier about the numbers. The entire student body, and staff, and immediate family members are all likely irreversibly damaged by being present during the murder of others, and possibly narrowly escaping their own. The tragedy certainly expands well beyond the body count. I don't want to down play suicides either, as many of those families will take them just as hard as school shootings. More than one terrible thing can happen at once, but it doesn't mean that any of them deserve less attention. That's my current position anyway.

I have to very carefully choose my words here, as I don't want to give the wrong impression. I agree with you and I don't want anyone to think that I don't.

I think we, as gun owners who don't want to see our rights lost, continuously fall into a trap every time this happens. We're not just trying to solve a math problem, where simply stating facts is enough for everyone to agree and move on. I want to lay out the situation with the relationship between politicians, upset people that see guns as a tool (minority), and upset people that have no regard for guns as tools (majority), but I won't waste the time because we've seen it all, and heard it all before.

I'll save everyone whatever long post that'd get me on yet another ignore list and just sum up that no amount of rational, factual statements can over come the emotions of dead kids. It just doesn't work like that. I make my posts because I see a group of people who are very passionate about the big picture of keeping rights in place, but losing themselves in the argument and not being able to make up any ground against their opposition. Just a reminder that we're still talking about dead people and while cold hard facts seems like the answer against out of control emotional knee-jerking, it just comes across as cold and hard. I know that this website is a conservative safe space, or the office water cooler if you will, but remember that when you're out in real life and want to make an impression on someone, sometimes a "just the facts" approach doesn't cut it. That's why all the logic in the world hasn't done much to gain any traction. I really wish I had an answer; if I did I'd gladly share it with everyone. In the meantime, I can at least point out where people can potentially do harm to their own side and say, "Hey, you might be right, but if you don't deliver your message with precision, it won't matter."

I feel like I should mention to Gilpin Guy that this wasn't necessarily spawned from your post, and certainly not you specifically, since we've all said the same things at various time over the years, especially myself.

That's a lot of requotes. Anyway, the point I was trying to make, and failed to, was that so many kids are killing themselves. It's freaking tragic.

And it makes sense that some percentage of them will want to "take out" those that made them mad, sad, depressed, etc. Why are so many kids so depressed that they want to kill themselves? Drugs (illegal and prescrioption), social media, bullying, etc? I have no idea.

My guess is that 100% of the kids who commit school shootings plan on killing themselves after getting revenge, making some deranged point, or whatever. Some get cold feet and some don't get the chance because they just get caught before they can do it. My memory tells me that most actually do kill themselves - suicide by cop if you will.

I can't think of one school shooting committed by an adult - a real adult, like 30+ years old. No offense to those under 30, but you get what I mean.

Reduce the number kids who are suicidal and school shootings will naturally decrease. I don't have a solution to this problem, but it obviously exists.

[Gman]

Why active shooter drills didn’t help in the Florida high school shooting
Unless you have resources that can quickly neutralize a bad guy with a gun, it's all academic.

Students to Boycott Schools Until Congress Acts on Guns

[Zundfolge]

I guess I dont understand what demolishing the building does?

The purpose is to reinforce emotionalism over rationality. Reason and logic are the enemies of the left, this is why the left has so completely embraced post-modernism.

If you can undermine the public's ability to think logically and rationally and rely totally on emotion they're easier to manipulate into doing what you want.

At the end of the day, the left hates freedom so much they don't even want individuals to think rationally because this might lead to freedom.

[Bailey Guns]

There are any number of reasons for young people doing things like this. One thing my wife and I talk about all the time is just how few people actually possess even the most basic coping skills. The slightest thing goes wrong and it sends them into a panic/rage/meltdown of some sort.

I learned coping skills at a very young age. Take responsibility for your actions, respect others and the property of others, or learn your coping skills at the end of a belt/switch/whatever was handy. Yeah, I thought it was pretty brutal at the time. But then I left home at an early age and almost immediately began to understand why my mom (mom divorced my alcoholic dad when I was very young and I grew up with two stepdads over the years) was so strict. I am a true believer that the discipline I "suffered" as a child prepared me to deal with life and all it's ups and downs.

My wife and I are from very similar backgrounds: both had a very strict home life, follow the rules or else, very low income but hard-working parents, youngest of 3 children, left home as soon as possible and joined the military. Probably why we're still together after just shy of 30 years.

I recall as a young boy prone to being a pain in the ass and doing things I shouldn't and getting caught by a neighborhood parent...usually a mom. She'd kick my ass. Her husband would kick my ass. Other parents from the hood would kick my ass. Then they'd all call my parents who would kick my ass. It was truly a community ass kicking. Not just me, any kid caught doing something they shouldn't. I vividly recall a phrase used by my mom time and again when she'd learn of my misdeeds..."I hope you wore his little ass out." Well, they did. Then she did.

Try doing that now. You'd wind up in jail. But I don't recall any mass school shootings back then. Whether any of that actually has any bearing on something like a kid shooting up a school, I don't know.

[Irving]

That's a lot of requotes. Anyway, the point I was trying to make, and failed to, was that so many kids are killing themselves. It's freaking tragic.

And it makes sense that some percentage of them will want to "take out" those that made them mad, sad, depressed, etc. Why are so many kids so depressed that they want to kill themselves? Drugs (illegal and prescrioption), social media, bullying, etc? I have no idea.

My guess is that 100% of the kids who commit school shootings plan on killing themselves after getting revenge, making some deranged point, or whatever. Some get cold feet and some don't get the chance because they just get caught before they can do it. My memory tells me that most actually do kill themselves - suicide by cop if you will.

I can't think of one school shooting committed by an adult - a real adult, like 30+ years old. No offense to those under 30, but you get what I mean.

Reduce the number kids who are suicidal and school shootings will naturally decrease. I don't have a solution to this problem, but it obviously exists.

I did pick up on that, but wasn't sure if that's the way you meant it. Cheers.

[Bailey Guns]

Quote Originally Posted by CoGirl303 View Post
I guess I dont understand what demolishing the building does?

The purpose is to reinforce emotionalism over rationality. Reason and logic are the enemies of the left, this is why the left has so completely embraced post-modernism.

If you can undermine the public's ability to think logically and rationally and rely totally on emotion they're easier to manipulate into doing what you want.

At the end of the day, the left hates freedom so much they don't even want individuals to think rationally because this might lead to freedom.

Pretty much. And it'll have as much real effect as students and teachers staging a walkout. Because somebody has to "do something".

Honestly, there's a segment of society that hates the solution more than the problem. The best solution is armed and trained staff. Those willing to serve in that position. There really is no downside to it. But the "guns are THAT bad" people won't even consider it. Of course it won't stop everything but I truly believe it would seriously mitigate most instances.

[Gman]

I am a true believer that the discipline I "suffered" as a child prepared me to deal with life and all it's ups and downs.

That sounds familiar. If I were not paying attention due to what is now defined as ADD/HD, I'd get smacked. I figured that was on me because I never saw it coming. My attention was quickly refocused. I thanked my parents as an adult for being so strict and keeping me in line when I was younger.

I'm not sure if it's a lack of discipline, values, engaged parenting, or that mind altering drugs weren't prescribed for the littlest of reasons, but our entire society is in a sideways skid.