What is the endgame for the all the nonsense going on?

[Great-Kazoo]

It feels like Jiu jitsu, or some equivalent, training should be a requirement for all officers. When you have the knowledge to safely restrain someone, there is less shit like just straight up choking to subdue.

If it's 1 on 1 and that 1 isn't doped up.


the 128 in harlem around say 1983ish. Guy's handcuffed, arrested for the usual suspects stuff besides being under the influence and possession of unknown substance (possibly angel dust) and syringe.
He's semi lucid when arrested, when they get to the station house he's going off the rails, seeing this, imagining that. Go to fingerprint him, big mistake imo.

He breaks the hold of 1 cop swings and connects, down goes cop #1. #2 grabs the now highly agitated suspect, bam! they're down on the ground. Suspect breaks free and manages to stand. In come 2-3 more cops, night stick to knees takes him down, yet he has no clue he' sustained a major injury to the knee area.

Wobbles to his feet swinging at any and every thing. 2nd night stick drops him again.
Bam he's back up with no regard for injuries. Took 1/2 doz + cops to literally tackle him, like a defensive line.

So no matter how trained and versed you are in any non lethal form. It sometimes takes a village to stop a single threat. The higher they are ( be it drugs or alcohol) the more unpredictable the situation becomes. AND yes sometimes, no matter how much armchair QB'ing one does. Unless you're there, you'll never know why one did what they did, at that time.

Especially from a biased media. Perfect example is the st swisher, hands up, don't shoot, shit that is still believed today.

[Bailey Guns]

Every time someone tells me they want to get into law enforcement I tell them to be a firefighter instead.

[Bailey Guns]

If you've never been in a knock-down drag-out fight with someone that's under the influence of something it's hard to understand how all the fancy training you get in the academy and on in-service days goes out the window almost immediately. It's also easy to look at the after-the-fact description of an incident that takes multiple officers to subdue one person and wonder why it took so many.

[Irving]

I'm talking a little out of school here, but when your training goes out the window at first contact, you don't have enough training.

That people do drugs is not any kind of argument. So what? People do drugs so don't have training?

[FoxtArt]

When an asshole in another job (say an engineer) goes rogue and tries to choke out someone from accounting...

Do we say all engineers need more training? All engineers need anger management classes?

When you consider how many people are employed as law enforcement officers, I'm surprise the statistical incidence of manslaughter isn't higher to be honest. That doesn't make it right AT ALL, but law enforcement/military/etc. are all still comprised of people, and not surprisingly, just like all other segments of people, when you have enough people, some percentage are violent, or have anger issues, others are unnecessarily "twitchy", others have ego issues, etc., and "training" doesn't make that segment of the population vanish, nor does their pretend-psychological analysis even begin to remotely filter those people out, being as much security theater as a lie-detector test. I think we all know legitimate stories of select US Service Members also doing abhorrent things, that doesn't mean we can "train" it away from the US Armed Forces.

Presently, I have not seen any pragmatic suggestion for a resolution that will actually help all the underlying issues. I'm not sure there is one.

[Gman]

Since humans are involved, there's bad apples in every bunch. Doesn't matter if it's clergy. There are some that will abuse their position.

Painting with such a broad brush that those bad apples define the entire bunch is something the media loves to do. The same can be applied to some criminal with a gun and then all lawful gun owners are defined like the criminal. We know how that feels.

Bah, what do I know. I'm afflicted with white privilege.

ETA: Spelling correction and improved clarity.

[FoxtArt]

I'm talking a little out of school here, but when your training goes out the window at first contact, you don't have enough training.

I know someone who participated in a study at Quantio, where they spent over 20 hours in training trying to teach a new fighting style while under heavy analysis both before, at all stages, and after. All subjects were generally already skilled in some level of hand-to-hand. They were tested by back-to-back legitimate fights until the point of exhaustion.

The net analysis from the report is that 20 hours training in a hand to hand technique didn't do a damn bit of good. People don't have enough time to make cognizant decisions during a fight (e.g. recall training), they react instinctively and quickly if they have a chance of getting an upper hand. Now for a select few, they've trained in something SO MUCH that it becomes instinctively. The guy that did Canadian HL for a decade was constantly trying to bash people in the head. The Asian martial arts guy that did weekly sessions for 15 years largely did martial arts (not what he was supposed to). People that think you can send your wife to a weekend class or send an officer to a week of ju-jitsu sessions.... it's not going to do anything other than inspire confidence. They'll still largely fight the way they're instinctively inclined to, and it requires substantial dedication to have a practical effect.

[Great-Kazoo]

I'm talking a little out of school here, but when your training goes out the window at first contact, you don't have enough training.

That people do drugs is not any kind of argument. So what? People do drugs so don't have training?

sorry but i'm calling B.S on this one. You're missing the point. I don't care how much training you have. One person under the influence who's brain is not registering will never know they're injured.
Hell there's numerous stories on line of people who have been shot multiple times. Either walking, or driving, them self to the hospital.


You ever go toe-toe with someone after all other avenues have been exhausted? They rarely go down with 1-2 punches and that's sober.

[Irving]

I don't think you understand what Jiu jitsu is Kazoo.
Fox, who is taking about a weekend class? 20 hours is nothing. That's what, a weeks worth of training?

[VDW]

You can get everything you want in the above posts, and quite possibly will. The result will be you get a college educated 35+ year old who didn?t stick with their first career choice to politely take your statement and photograph your injuries. The only arrests that will be made are going to be the suspects who for one reason or another were incapacitated before the officer arrived, or voluntarily submitted to arrest. I guess you could just stop arresting people and switch to a ticket based justice system. Thing is, I?ve heard stories about people who won?t sign tickets or even identify themselves. I?m sure someone will figure out how to deal with those cases.

A few side effects I can see arising pretty quickly: You?re going to have to double the size of most departments to deal with the level of training you want and still be able to staff the streets. You will also have to significantly increase the training budget as you will be continually replacing officers who quickly either decide they can?t stand rotating shifts every few months in addition to continually interrupting their sleep schedule for training, court, and other administrative procedures/hearings or just decide they?re ready for something else (as they couldn?t start out at 21). With this much physical hands on training, you will continually have a large number of officers out on workman?s comp claims, as practicing fighting and defensive tactics in a realistic manner for the demanded competency will invariably cause injuries. You?re also going to repeat all of the above for every officer that forgets they?re not supposed to defend themselves or has to deal with one of the aforementioned incapacitated suspects who suddenly wakes up from their alcohol and or drug induced stupor and wants to fight.

Man, I can?t even imagine how a bunch of 35+ year olds with college degrees and managerial experience would do taking orders as rookies on shift work....